[FCLinder]

T-Pro, I do think you guys need to rethink your price raise. For me to spend $95 to ride and race for two days is way too high. That makes me only want to come to 1 or 2 races and not all 3. I understand you guys have to make money. But Jeremy is right and I stand by what he has to say. Paying to drive 6 1/2 hours both ways is about $270, lodging is about $250 for 2 nights, and now $95 to race and ride for two days totals up to $615 for a weekend. Now if it’s two of us splitting the cost its $355. This doesn't count for food too. All in all its a costly weekend.

My suggestion is:

Charge $65 for race fee and two day pass only for the race weekends. This is $20 more than last year and not too big of a jump for us.

Leave the new cost the same for non race weekends.
1 Day Pass $37
2 Day Pass $70
3 Day Pass $99
Season Pass $269

Will you still have half day passes and will you guys allow us to buy a half day pass for the mornings session too? Not like last years if I only could ride the last day I was there from open to noon I had to buy a full day pass. This sucked!!!

From a business stand point Snow Shoe still wins and profit will be higher than last year if you get the same traffic. I really feel if you guys stick with the prices you have now on a race weekend you will see a big drop in attendance.

 

[profro]

Charge $65 for race fee and two day pass only for the race weekends. This is $20 more than last year and not too big of a jump for us.

And payout the top 10 in the pro class. That way more can have a real chance at winning their entry fee back.

 

[MTB_Rob_NC]

T-Pro

Just a thought. For race weekends, offer packages that make it inexpensive to ride say on the Friday before? Or even include a "free/discounted" day of riding. That way the folks that want to get their bang for the buck for riding/traveling can justify coming up there. The resort will more then make their money back for the additional day of lodging/food and ancilliary purchases while on the mountain.

For example. For those of you that have commented about the cost of riding/racing on a given weekend. How would you feel for the same out of pocket expense for (getting to and from) and the (actual cost of lift and race entry fees) you got an additional day of "riding" in?

 

[dhbuilder]

Sorry, but $70 for a 2 day pass and an additional $25 to race is just way too steep.

There is no way I can drive 6+ hours, 3 times a year for a race fee in effect of close to $300.

If this price stays, you lost me as a racer, a food eater, and my wife as a shopper.

i agree wholeheartedly with that.

locals who ride there alot will not have a problem with it.
but coming up once or twice a year to ride ?
add in the cost of gasoline, eating out, hotel fees.

the management needs to realize this ain't whistler.

 

[Hulkamaniac]

the management needs to realize this ain't whistler.

EXACTLY!!!!

 

[dhbuilder]

EXACTLY!!!!

what i meant by that was,
this is far from a worldwide destination like whistler is.

and please don't take this wrong but.
the trailsystem itself isn't worth the increased cost.

don't get me wrong.
the trails are a blast to ride, and they've done an outstanding job in the last few years to improve and expand the facility.
but some of the trailbeds i rode last year were pretty worn out.
i realize they get alot more traffic than the trails i build, and the winters are far more severe.

but it took whistler years to get to where they are today.
and if the management wants to create a "whistler east", they'd better have lots of patience and be willing to do it right over the course of a few seasons, and not try to gangbang out a bunch of a-line stuff in a short period of time.
and it's obvious that's where the big $$$ are being spent.
long a-line style trails.
snowshoe isn't blessed with a ton of elevation like whistler or even windrock for that matter. we're working with over 2,400ft of elevation loss.

there isn't the mass amount of downhillers in this area like there is out there.
and from what i understand you can pretty much fly in right next to the resort out there.
can't quite do that here.

these and many many other issues are what the management needs to consider before they jack the prices up that much in such a short amount of time, without an ensueing jump in the amount and variety of trails.
(villiage be damned, that's what it's all about-the trails.)

this makes my pondering of a new $5 per weekend day trail maintanence fee seem reasonable.

 

[G-spot]

I would like to know something from you guys, Here it is I found out that Whislter is going to open on April 28(weather permitting), then way can't you guys, both places are owned by the same people,and Whislter gets alot more snow than SS. plus don't they want more of are money $$$.

 

[skatetokil]

your winter operation offers package deals and incentives to get people out. Very strange that the mtb side doesn't do the same.

ALSO
i'm always bothered by the fact that as soon as companies start to settle into their market the let their operations get bloated. when i see a company that is advertising too heavily or buying a fancy office building, I say to myself "I'm not going to but their products because they waste the money I give them."

not saying they snowshoe is there yet, but sending people to expensive camps and buying earth movers is a potential sign that the focus has shifted away from minimizing overhead.

when these mountains start up they often rely on volunteers and their budgets consist of shoe strings and duct tape. they understand that revenue depends on low costs passed on in the form of low prices to attract customers. then they make a name and they think revenue is all about gouging a captive audience.

the mtb market cant work like a ski mountain yet. people love lifts but if its too expensive i can always go ride xc for free or shuttle around my area.

 

[metalMTB]

i don't think i'll be coming up there every few weekends like last year. Maybe once with prices like that. Thats at least twice as much as other mountains.

 

[gastro]

i don't think i'll be coming up there every few weekends like last year. Maybe once with prices like that. Thats at least twice as much as other mountains.

Whoa, which other mountains charge $16.50 for a one day lift pass?

 

[Hulkamaniac]

what i meant by that was,
this is far from a worldwide destination like whistler is.

and please don't take this wrong but.
the trailsystem itself isn't worth the increased cost.

I hear ya loud and clear. I have history with Snowshoe and the mtb program, was right in there when this new program started. Unfortunately things didn't work out for me at Snowshoe, but it definitely gave me an insight to the real workings of the industry during my near five years living/working there. I have my guess/assumption as to what is driving this price increase and program change, but that isn't for me to comment on here. I for one support Trevyn and Brad in their fight to keep the mtb program alive and kicking at Snowshoe.......definitely glad I am no longer in their positions taking heat from both sides!

 

[FCLinder]

i agree wholeheartedly with that.

locals who ride there alot will not have a problem with it.
but coming up once or twice a year to ride ?
add in the cost of gasoline, eating out, hotel fees.

the management needs to realize this ain't whistler.

Joey, looks like you maybe getting more trafic up your way this year at Windroock. Have you thought about having a race there? I bit you would have just as many racers there as Snowshoe does maybe more because the cost for that trip would be lower than going to Snowshoe....

 

[Hulkamaniac]

I would like to know something from you guys, Here it is I found out that Whislter is going to open on April 28(weather permitting), then way can't you guys, both places are owned by the same people,and Whislter gets alot more snow than SS. plus don't they want more of are money $$$.

Ha, as easy as that sounds, it is a far being that simple. Different terrain, different mountain operations (namely staffing), vastly different budgeting and a whole different attitude/take on the sport in this region are just some reasons that keeps it from happening.

 

[dhbuilder]

Ha, as easy as that sounds, it is a far being that simple. Different terrain, different mountain operations (namely staffing), vastly different budgeting and a whole different attitude/take on the sport in this region are just some reasons that keeps it from happening.

that's what i was thinking.
those guys have a short enough building season as it is.
and i'm sure the month of april is right smack in the middle of it.
the last thng you want is a bunch of zoomies rippin down unbedded trails.

i hope the powers that be realize that all of us want snowshoe to succeed.
but don't play us for the deep pockets you think we have.

 

[John M]

This is very sad news....... I have been going to Snowshoe close to 3 times a year for the past 6 years.
Most of the time it was with 5 to 10 people.
Once a year I would bring my family, my friend would bring his family. Again this has been a yearly thing.....Me riding all of us staying at the Mt. My wife and family spending time in the village during the day. ALL of eating in the village.....most of us drinking in the village.
Last year our team did the race series. Some brought friends some brought family. ALL of spending alot of money at Snowshoe.
Clearly I have ALWAYS been a great fan of the things are happening at Snowshoe. Being that I race with the "Older fellows"..... I have a much greater chance of coming home with money (I did at every race last year) Even with the much better odds that I personnally have to come home with prize money. This price inc. may be just too much to bear. I drive about 10 hours to get there with the added increse of fuel and now this HUGE entry hike..... Its looking like me and HIGH GEAR RACING(10 person team) may take our race dollars else where

 

[skatetokil]

everybody is coming down hard on snowshoe, and i agree it's expensive, but really the distance, lack of cheap lodging and food are what put the price out of reach.

 

[SK6]

There needs to be a middle ground. There were a lot of good ideas presents, such as the free Friday. I myself live close enough to S.S. to purchase a season pass, and am glad to do so. To charge season pass holder for lift access on race weekends is if course absurd.

However, to pay 100.00 to race for a weekend will certainly kill the turn outs. Many of us are weekend warriors, and it’s the little things in life like riding a SS makes our daily grind worth while. As far as the pros or sponsored teams, the fees are typically covered are they not?

So there needs to be a compromise. I know upper management is simply number crunching, however, I believe they completely underestimate the buying power of race weekends. This is in the food, purchases, beers (My personal favorite), and lodging. Cut the amount of money made last year by half, and this is what the increase will accomplish.

I like VT Mtbkr’s idea. Or, let’s put it in a better perspective, simply by buying a season pass; you will have saved money than pay per race. Add in one extra weekend of riding, making it 4 times a year, and you save a substantial amount. Figure it this way, cutting the expense back say 20-25 dollars, is money that would be spent at the facility anyway, its just not as tangible as a ledger book for lift passes.

Just some thoughts

 

[psychobiker]

Joey, looks like you maybe getting more trafic up your way this year at Windroock. Have you thought about having a race there? I bit you would have just as many racers there as Snowshoe does maybe more because the cost for that trip would be lower than going to Snowshoe....

great idea

 

[JeffD]

What SK6 kinda said. The race entry should almost be looked at as a loss leader for the total weekend's income. Since unlike any other standalone promoters ala Hartlove, SS stands to make income off every dollar spent on the property so keep the entry low to get folks onsite knowing they'll spend the money for lodging/food on the back end.

 

[T-Pro]

Well... I think I have received a bit of feed back in the past 24hrs. Your comments and suggestions have certainly been well heard. I will make sure to pass them on to the people that need to hear it.

I was hoping this post wouldn't turn into a rant on Snowshoe and for the most part people have been civilized and constructive in your comments. To those individuals where this is true I thank you.

Don't lose faith in Snowshoe... our hearts are still dedicated to great trail, great times, and greater friends. We will do everything within our power to keep that alive.

Many Thanks!
-Park Crew-

 

[skatetokil]

I love SS but the first time I went there was with a buddy who was just getting into downhilling. we asked the guy in the shop where the easy trails were to warm up on so he could get a feel for the bike.

He just laughed.

the whole "we don't have any easy trails here" attitude can be bad for business even though its good for me.

 

[dhbuilder]

like i said earlier.

we all snowshoe to be successfull.
it's in every downhill rider, racer and race team's best interest that it does.
it's in the best central location for all eastcoast riders to gather round and ride or race.

and if a company doesn't turn a profit, then they bail and we all lose.

that being said, as a self employed carpenter i can tell you that sometimes you have to just break even on some jobs to get your foot in the door to make a decent profit on another.
starting out with a new client and trying to cash in as much as possible will lead me to no long term lucrative relationship with them.

see what i'm getting at ?

b.t.w.
thanks for giving all of us the opportunity to express our concerns about a place we've grown fond of over the years.

 

[bizutch]

not saying they snowshoe is there yet, but sending people to expensive camps and buying earth movers is a potential sign that the focus has shifted away from minimizing overhead.

.

Not trying to hammer my friend, but you're capturing teh wrong intent. Sending Brad to that summit and training is ESSENTIAL for Snowshoe to succeed long term. There is NO real blueprint for a successful MTB park to go by and that summit and training gives him the opportunity to meet with other bike park management, share ideas of success...and learn what types of trails keep people coming back for more. A-Line at Whistler is the most ridden trail in the world, a statistical fact, and is on a less than 10% grade. It's not going anywhere soon. The things he can apply from that training in regards to trails is limitless. It is the #1 reason I WILL go to Snowshoe this season at some point...to see what Brad's learned and is applying.

In regards to burning money on equipment, it is VERY good news that they are investing in machinery. Trail specific dozers by Sweco, Ditch Witch and so forth lay the same footprint of dozens of laborers in a fraction of the time....and bed it in properly. You want top notch trails...then you need that equipment!!! Manual labor with shovels at snowshoe is the same as trying to have an ant farm made out of gravel.

The primary point I had was that the resort is upping the ante to the riders without having already produced the trail system to justify the additional cost. They're wanting us to fund the errors they've made along the way and help pay for the new equipment and education immediately.

I was trying to say they may very well be able to justify that price after that equipment and training bear fruit.

Plus, it's bad business to charge a customer for upgrades that haven't occured yet. You wouldn't agree to them raising their snowboarder lift fees to to pay for a snowboard terrain park a year in advance.

I think Snowshoe management has to say:
"We have to chalk the last 6 years up as a loss because we were winging it with this bike park thing. Now 2007 will be commited financially as our final trail and organizational design and final phase of completion. "

2008 will still have alot of expense write-offs. I can't see that bike park generating a sustainable profit (from a sustainable trail system) until 2009.

 

[whale]

I love SS but the first time I went there was with a buddy who was just getting into downhilling. we asked the guy in the shop where the easy trails were to warm up on so he could get a feel for the bike.

He just laughed.

i was amazed this past summer on the 5 resorts in 5 days tour that stiff and i did with how on the front of the bromont brochure they headlined it with "new beginner trail". it was great to see XC riders and full on DH sluggers riding the gondola to the top of that mountain with all it's diverse riding and not a lot of "look at that wanker on an XC bike" or "look at those over suspended biking suckas hucking with all that gear" attitudes.

i've never been to a place where everyone seemed to embrace mountain biking as a community... then again, i guess thats canada! i recommend checking this place out. it's a resort for all riders and rider types with a lots of varying terrain and swift lifts. (did i forget to mention that for a mere few canadian dollars you get access to the waterpark next door?) the only drawback being was that the vert isn't all that, but the layout of the mountain makes it seems more than what it truly is.

"whistler of the east", i dare say there is some rough competition out there... let's get it on and support our local resorts with (fair) pricing to help them build up for the future of our sport.

 

[TURBOLVR]

My Steed Volkmar and I cannot swim the norse sea, sertup a weekend warcamp and ride snowshoe all weekend at this rate. I cannot afford to feed my traveler his barley, slay chicks as they wish, and still afford even ONE race. Agreed Whistler has MUCH more elevation than Snowshoe- been there TWICE (Intrawest pleez!) I will be riding the Rockwinder for a mere $15 per day! OR at home masaging my NorsePole- "Fat Bottom Girls You Make the Rockin World Go Round"
Thanx,

Pole Waxer

 

[manimal]

If I read that correct you are going to charge $37 for a lift pass to practice on Saturday and another $37 to practice on Sunday and $25 to race. So total will be $99. It jumped from $45 to $99?!?!?!?!

Will you pay out more than the top 5?

That makes making all 3 very difficult to justify. Lets hope I am reading that wrong.

wow, and i was hoping to make it to snowshoe this year....guess i'll just have to make sugar my big event instead. $95 x's me and the boy = too expensive for my meager salary
i guess lift accessed mountains ARE becoming the new golf

 

[Bearmntpicnic]

i hope so. maybe we can start paying 100 bucks for collard shirts. Ohh wait we pay twice that for tld gear.

 

[BigMike]

Trevyn,

I seriously appreciate what you guys are doing up there, its a great thing. I guess i'm one of the lucky ones that lives close enough to snowshoe that its only a 3 1/2 hour drive, so the season pass would pay off for me, and if I don't need surgery on my wrist, thats the route I am planning on taking. BUT, last year, my work was schedual was different and I only made it up for the races. If they had been close to $100, there is no way I would have been able to make it.

Can't you guys cut costs in other places? Sure its cool to get a tee shirt at the races, but what if you didn't give those out? how about the powerbar (or whatever it was) that you gave to everyone? I know some of that stuff was donated advertising, but when you add up the stuff in those goodie bags, it gets expensive real quick, and I'm sure Snowshoe is out of pocket for some of it, right? If I'm not mistaken, most people are coming up there for the riding, not a bag with a tee shirt, powerbar, water bottle, etc. Can't some of those costs be cut?

Also, with so many people NOT coming up, they are still not going to make more money. Like others said, if only half the number of people show up per race, sure they will make the same amount on entry and lift passes, but they will loose a ton of money on lodging, the bar, food, etc.

Just my 2 cents for what its worth

 

[SK6]

The thing with the T-Shirts and the power bars, as awesome as they are are also a part of the advertising. It creates a loyalty to the brand, such as Poweraid. I know I buy it in lieu of Gatorade, I will usually purchase the Poweraid. They helped with coughing up the dough to help with the purse.

Trevyn, I believe what is being conveyed is a program is as only as good as the people who participate in it. I think its real cool to have people come from Florida, and New York to race at the "Shoe". My desktop is the clouds below us after the first race was a wash. That just shows the loyalty of the riders who ride there. The tone of this thread is more of sadness and disappointment than that of criticism.

A compromise may work if the fees must stay at $100.00, a discount on lodging perhaps, or a significant discount on items in the Depot for purchases.

 

[bizutch]

rest assured there isn't a promoter on this planet putting a single penny into the goody bag...at any event.

 

[BigMike]

rest assured there isn't a promoter on this planet putting a single penny into the goody bag...at any event.

Who pays for the tee shirts? They promote Snowshoe, not Powerade......

 

[skatetokil]

training and gear are good, but only if they are actually cost saving business decisions. obviously i'm not looking at their numbers so i cant say. its worth keeping in mind that one of these machines may replace 12 guys with picks and shovels, but if you didn't need 12 guys in the first place you just wasted a bunch of dough. when companies start to think only about growing (as in more capital or employees) rather than streamlining thats when they get in over their heads with too much debt and not enough customers. i think we'd all hate to see SS get out of the market which is why I expressed concern about the nearly continuous construction and upgrading they've been doing (lodge, condos, village, snowmaking, bike park etc etc).

its all good if the people show up, but from what we've seen in this thread many are thinking about staying closer to home.

 

[jvnixon]

If in 2007, they receive the same # of attendees based on race #4 figures (race 3 saw over 220entries) and $100 /per person

Say they see a 30% decrease in attendance

Say they see a 55% decrease in attendance

The break even point is ~55% according to the numbers i put in based on racer's attendance to have the same profit (as far as race fees are concerned, not including final payout, not including lodging, sales, food, etc).

 

[BigMike]

Wow, way to break it down!

So basically like everyone here is saying, its not worth raising the price so much to drive racers away. From this thread alone I can see there would be at least a 25% decrease in racers, maybe even more!

 

[b stevens]

If in 2007, they receive the same # of attendees based on race #4 figures and $100 /per person

Say they see a 30% decrease in attendance

Say they see a 50% decrease in attendance

The break even point is ~50% according to the numbers i put in based on racer's attendance to have the same profit (as far as race fees are concerned, not including lodging, sales, food, etc).

they paid money in the 40 plus class. that will throw your numbers off.

 

[jvnixon]

they paid money in the 40 plus class. that will throw your numbers off.

k fixed, thanks

 

[bizutch]

You guys are so naive. Do you have any idea how much money it costs...just to turn the power on the lift on?

 

[denjen]

You guys are so naive. Do you have any idea how much money it costs...just to turn the power on the lift on?

I agree. Those spreadsheets sure are pretty but I'm sure they are leaving out a lot of info for the bottom line. If the $1850 profit is correct from the first chart, then they lost money on every race last year.

 

[ChrisKring]

Straight up, most races lose money unless you factor in the lodging and food sales. As Butch stated, the lift is expensive. We paid $100/hr for a old slow 2 person fixxed grip lift when we were putting on races. I am sure the lift the snowshoe uses cost more with the 8 people they have running it. It would help the profit if they could work out a way to load the bikes for the people in front of you. However, that would probably be a liablity concern.

Back to the lodging, our team alone dropped over $2k at Snowshoe last year in lodging. Add to that the at least $1500 in food/drinks.

At the end of the day, Snowshoe needs to turn a profit to keep the park open. I just hope that they watch their cost so they can keep the prices reasonable. To me, $124 for a race is very high when you include the $150-200 in gas and $100 in lodging. It would be worth it if they had an A-line run and some more runs that had flow without all the bone jarring rocks. Sure, I like riding difficult trails. But halfway through the day when your arms are blown, you need to stop riding. At Whistler and Diablo, I just ride A-line or Dominion for a few runs to freshen up. It all comes down to value. That said, a lot of riders just can't afford much more.

 

[denjen]

Back to the lodging, our team alone dropped over $2k at Snowshoe last year in lodging. Add to that the at least $1500 in food/drinks.

You can’t factor food into the equation either. As far as I know SS doesn’t own any of the restaurants. They are all individually owned. The only thing SS gets is the rent which they are going to get whether we come or not.