Not sure about everyone else, but I try to go out of my way to buy from boutique manufacturers for the more personalized and above-and-beyond service that usually comes with it.
So Commencal won't warantee my frame...
- Thread starter DHperu
- Start date
Have you tried rubbing it with a baguette?
Just get on the phone with them and start speaking German and giving them orders. They'll get into shape real fast.
im sorry but if the warranty states that you can't do something, then you do it. and it fails (even though its a known problem) they don't need to support you at all. its not a copout. you went against the what is stated in the warranty.
its an open and shut case. you went against something in the document that came with the bike. sorry.
its an open and shut case. you went against something in the document that came with the bike. sorry.
Technically, yes, its an open and shut case. Just like you jaywalking across the street is illegal.
The point is, the paintjob would have had 0 influence on the headtube cracking, especially since Crankencals are known for this. Since the paintjob wasn't the reason this happened, the company using the paintjob (while valid) as an excuse is just plain weaksauce.
The point is, the paintjob would have had 0 influence on the headtube cracking, especially since Crankencals are known for this. Since the paintjob wasn't the reason this happened, the company using the paintjob (while valid) as an excuse is just plain weaksauce.
Sorry man, the sarcasm obviously didn't come through - I too work damn hard for my toys
I used to laugh at the "cheque book racers" at the back of the field. DHperu obviously doesn't fit in that category or he wouldn't be on here. If it was me this happened to I would be
and dishing out some 
That race frame weights 5.5kg with shock. The race like logo makes it less durable? This tread is so informational - if the frame is labeled race it looses durability, same for stripping paint...
I can definitely see both sides here. In the end though, I'm surprised they weren't willing to at least offer a discount on a new frame or even at cost. Flat out denying the warranty claim for that, if you're the original owner and it was purchased from an authorized dealer, just isn't good business for a smaller co. like this. Like someone else said, I usually try to buy stuff from smaller "boutique" or niche companies, and part of the reason is that they usually have much better customer service. When they don't...well then I avoid them.
I think it would be worth your time to email them a link to this thread, so they know people are aware of this situation. After all, this thread already has 1300 views in one day, as I'm posting this. Imagine how many more views it'll have when they get around to looking at it themselves? I googled "commencal warranty" and "commencal frame" and this thread popped up on the 1st page of search results in both cases.
I think it would be worth your time to email them a link to this thread, so they know people are aware of this situation. After all, this thread already has 1300 views in one day, as I'm posting this. Imagine how many more views it'll have when they get around to looking at it themselves? I googled "commencal warranty" and "commencal frame" and this thread popped up on the 1st page of search results in both cases.
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No it's not. But it is nice to see that U.S geographical knowledge is still right up there
I was going to say, Andorra isn't France.No it's not. But it is nice to see that U.S geographical knowledge is still right up there
*edit - Beat me to it SylentK
Q4T!
Commencal is hardly boutique. I would rank them right about where Iron Horse was before they folded. They make some nice bikes, but none of their stuff strikes me as high quality regardless of suspension design or spec.
Back to the point, I have found that a boutique manufacturer will be more receptive to communication and therefore providing help if something should occur. Hell, you can contact DT on MTBR or get a pretty direct line to Intense there as well. W00dy broke his 7 year old brooklyn and had it repaired for the cost of time and welding fluid....bike is back and just as good as it ever was.
tl;dr don't buy a disposable bike.
Well with the warranty I'd have to lean towards the fact that you did change it, sure its only paint so I'm conflicted. I'd like to see Commencal warranty it, their frames are expensive and they should support some one who dropped that much $$ on one.
On the cracking issue...its a 7000 series AL. Any 7000 is stronger than your standard 6061 but it is more difficult to heat treat correctly (you need a higher temp). You have to heat treat after welding, you do it wrong...the welds become the weak point and crack.
The problem here is Commencal designed it for more strength with 7000 and then most likely heat treated at the lower 6000 temp. Apparently it was a big issue in 2008 and still an issue with some 2009s before they switched the company that heat treated. The 2010s should be fine.
There are several companies who make these type of engineering mistakes. Marzocchi sent their forks to Taiwan and the 1st year there they had all kinds of tolerance issues. The guys over there build frames in jigs and don't have to hold as tight a tolerance as you need for bushings/bearings/seals. My friend works at Hayes and when he was helping out with the new Manitous they sent him to Taiwan to make sure this didn't happen to the new Dorado.
On the cracking issue...its a 7000 series AL. Any 7000 is stronger than your standard 6061 but it is more difficult to heat treat correctly (you need a higher temp). You have to heat treat after welding, you do it wrong...the welds become the weak point and crack.
The problem here is Commencal designed it for more strength with 7000 and then most likely heat treated at the lower 6000 temp. Apparently it was a big issue in 2008 and still an issue with some 2009s before they switched the company that heat treated. The 2010s should be fine.
There are several companies who make these type of engineering mistakes. Marzocchi sent their forks to Taiwan and the 1st year there they had all kinds of tolerance issues. The guys over there build frames in jigs and don't have to hold as tight a tolerance as you need for bushings/bearings/seals. My friend works at Hayes and when he was helping out with the new Manitous they sent him to Taiwan to make sure this didn't happen to the new Dorado.
Good, glad to hear it. I approve whole heartedly of giving the brand/dealer/distributer a chance to take care of business before making a fuss, but if they don't for something that is very clearly a defect, then its time to raise a stink!
They did offer him a deal. Which is all he should get IMO.
Edit: Next time you buy something, try not to void the warranty, especially if it's a bike.
I feel the same way, i've just been pleading my case without talking sh!t because i know that's not the way to get things going in you're favour. If i do get my warantee i'll be a very happy camper, i would have learned my lesson to not touch the original paint and probably will continue buying commencal bikes in the future because i really love the way the bike rides.
I'll let everyone know how things end up
thanks for all the comments from both sides of the situation, as they helped me take the decision to be more insistant and not back down from the first time they said no.
I still have faith that i'll get the warantee, my fingers are crossed
Nice guys get **** all.
Jeff's actually canadian, and he knows they're from andorra, but he also knows that they're basically still all frenchies!No it's not. But it is nice to see that U.S geographical knowledge is still right up there
You shouldn't, but it's good to "suck-up" in case they're reading this.
The boys at Ventana might be able to fix it up for you.
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You voided the warranty get over it. Being cautions on warranties and the action we take in voiding them is part of this sport. If you haven't learned that by now then you cant be helped.
exactly....I got rid of mine after the second time in a year it cracked...crappy cracking bike building should not be rewarded with loyalty
oh no you didn't?!! heh heh.....it would actually be more like we were all American, but moved to Canada cause we didn't want to pay US taxes, or any taxes for that matter......so it's basically like Canada basically being America? Now I get it then
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At the risk of sounding like an unsympathetic ass, I side with Commencal on this one. You did something that voided the warranty. Whether you agree with whether it SHOULD void the warranty is immaterial. When you purchased that frame, you entered into a contractual agreement with them with respect to warranty coverage based on the exact terms they set out. If you didn't like those terms, it was your choice *back then* to reject them and buy another frame. The fact that they're offering you a replacement at a discount is a courtesy on their part, and I think your attitude should be, "well, I didn't play by the rules, so I get what I deserve here".
Companies lay out broad terms on limiting their warranty for a reason. In your case, you may not have sandblasted the frame or done anything at all to compromise its integrity, but how are they to know? Should they strip down some paint on yours to make sure there's no evidence of sandblasting? To that end, should they undergo that level of inspection on every frame that comes in for warranty? Surely you can see the Pandora's box that opens.
I'd be bummed if I were in your shoes for sure. Similarly, I'd be bummed if, like Jeff referenced above, I got a dumb ticket for doing something illegal like jaywalking. However, we live in a society that is governed by rules. It's our responsibility to know them, and when we break them, we suffer the consequences. And we've got no one to blame but ourselves.
Companies lay out broad terms on limiting their warranty for a reason. In your case, you may not have sandblasted the frame or done anything at all to compromise its integrity, but how are they to know? Should they strip down some paint on yours to make sure there's no evidence of sandblasting? To that end, should they undergo that level of inspection on every frame that comes in for warranty? Surely you can see the Pandora's box that opens.
I'd be bummed if I were in your shoes for sure. Similarly, I'd be bummed if, like Jeff referenced above, I got a dumb ticket for doing something illegal like jaywalking. However, we live in a society that is governed by rules. It's our responsibility to know them, and when we break them, we suffer the consequences. And we've got no one to blame but ourselves.
Then
You recant the 1st bolded statement and say that you or someone just painted over the frame?
Now if everything that has been said about the failures to properly heat treat the frames are true and this is a common and known failure, I would be inclined to see if there is some means of having a recall performed. Frame replacement due to poor craftsmanship is one thing, but improperly designed or manufactured parts in an entirely different beast. Does this company not perform life cycle or destructive testing and analysis to verify their frames? From what I'm reading, I would think either a) they aren't or b) they're doing it very wrong. Either way, this sort of track record puts them on the short-list of manufacturers to stay away from. Blaming, the frame manufacturer (if outsourced) or the heat treatment people is a sorry excuse in my mind since I would expect any medium to larger size operation to have a system of checks and balances in place to ensure that they are putting out a product that meets their design specifications. I would strongly suggest that yourself and other owners of these frames that have failed, report it to the CPSC. Something stinks about these failures.
With that said, I still feel like there's another side to this story that maybe you aren't telling us since there are pretty clear cut contradictions with the "paint removal" statements. While I agree that it's pretty lame for a company to hide behind the "painting excuse" instead of honoring a very real warranty claim, there are legitimate reasons as to why they would have it voiding the warranty. Maybe you unknowingly and unintentionally wrote these posts in this fashion, which I imagine could have happened, but it definitely did raise my eyebrows.
*edit - Personally, not knowing all the details, I'd lean more towards the side of Commencal. I think offering a replacement at cost is generous, and well, you did paint the frame. John P. makes a good rationalization in favor of Commencal....
...BUT, I can't stress enough, that if there are known problems with these frames, yourself and other folks who have experienced these failures need to get off your collective duffs, stop being sheep, and do something about it. It is inexcusable for a company to sell a dangerous and faulty product. I would get your situation sorted out ASAP, sell the "fixed" or replaced frame, and move on because believe it or not, there are plenty of other great bikes out there.
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I totally agree with this, and this would be the part where dhperu could have said "yeah I messed up, but..." to the guy in charge-- that could get him somewhere. People make mistakes, and people are capable of recognizing this and helping you out, but you have to give people a reason to cut you some slack.
I probably would have waited on this thread to help with the "slack cutting".
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Warranties should cover manufacturer defects. If he stripped the paint via sandblasting, I don't find any fault with commencal, and selling at dealer cost is quite generous of them - they gotta stay in business, and you don't stay in business by giving everything away, especially when the consumer destroys their own frame.
But, on the flip side, it sounds like this is a known problem (manufacturer defect), and if it is the case that he painted over, or used a chemical stripper rather then sandblasting, then using that clause (which is only there to cover their ass in the event the consumer screws something up) is complete BS. There are a million and a half companies that produce great bikes with great warranties and great support, and just as many of these companies produce bikes that don't have known defects.
So, it would do well for bti to at least look into it and find out if in fact it was painted over or chemically stripped, or if it was bead blasted. Regardless of what the warranty has written. Good business is covering your customers and making them want to recommend you to others, and keep them buying your frames.
I know one thing is for sure, after reading this thread, even if I could go twice as fast and twice as big as I do now, I definitely would not consider a commencal until they pulled their heads out of the asses and got their distributers in line, and made bikes that didn't break.
But, on the flip side, it sounds like this is a known problem (manufacturer defect), and if it is the case that he painted over, or used a chemical stripper rather then sandblasting, then using that clause (which is only there to cover their ass in the event the consumer screws something up) is complete BS. There are a million and a half companies that produce great bikes with great warranties and great support, and just as many of these companies produce bikes that don't have known defects.
So, it would do well for bti to at least look into it and find out if in fact it was painted over or chemically stripped, or if it was bead blasted. Regardless of what the warranty has written. Good business is covering your customers and making them want to recommend you to others, and keep them buying your frames.
I know one thing is for sure, after reading this thread, even if I could go twice as fast and twice as big as I do now, I definitely would not consider a commencal until they pulled their heads out of the asses and got their distributers in line, and made bikes that didn't break.
My when the tranny blew in my car, it was technically out of warranty, way out. But it was a known problem, so Honda replaced it for free (go Honda!). And it certainly ate into their margin WAYYYYYY more than a new front triangle will eat into commencal's margins. What is that called? Oh ya, customer service and good business. Seems like commencal doesn't know what those words mean.
Pretty sure Max Commencal is french, hence the french comment. If we're going on where the company is based, then we can call them Andorran. But really, I guess that means Max is french and the bikes are Taiwanese.No it's not. But it is nice to see that U.S geographical knowledge is still right up there
complete e-domination.Pretty sure Max Commencal is french, hence the french comment. If we're going on where the company is based, then we can call them Andorran. But really, I guess that means Max is french and the bikes are Taiwanese.
*high five*
Yes, yes they should. Especially if by request. As I stated above, 5-10 minutes of sanding (less if you use a powersander) is all it would take.
I would expect at LEAST that level of attention for what these frames cost. I don't think that is a all a stretch to require such detailed inspection on a $2.5-3k pile of aluminum tubing and welds.
A cracked headtube on any frame within a warranty period, regardless of what was done to it, should have the manufacturers full attention.
I guess my counterpoint would be that Commencal wrote the warranty with some very specific language ("don't paint the damn thing") so that they wouldn't have to get into all that. The customer implicitly agreed to that language when he bought the frame, then turned around and violated his end of the deal.
I totally agree it would be awesome of Commencal to step up and take care of the guy. I just don't think they owe him that.
Totally Agree
Totally agree here too and your previous statement. However, while they don't have to, they should, if they are smart and looking at the big picture. It's like investing, you don't have to but you usually get rewarded after making a little sacrifice and some educated decisions. This would be a good faith move on their part. They are already getting a bad rep in the industry and doing something ABOVE and BEYOND may help repair that. When was the last time someone in a company got promoted for doing their job. They got a bonus or a promotion (or in this case, a loyal customer and future customers) by going the extra mile.
Recap:
1) Dude buys Commencal frame.
2) Commencal Warranty says void if paint removed and recoated.
3) Dude strips paint with undisclosed technique, repaints, rides.
4) Dude finds crack in frame, seeks warranty coverage.
5) Commencal's distributor says see point (2).
6) Dude complains about (5), ignores (2), comes to Ridemonkey to complain more.
I tend to agree with John P, probably because I'm one of those dudes who has a law degree and has been a member of the bar in 3 different states, and who has worked on a lot of product liability and contract disputes from both sides of the dispute (consumer vs manufacturer).
Also because Dude lied about stripping the paint and because there are paint removal techniques that can compromise frame strength -- hence the reason for voiding Warranty unless recoat done by factory or factory-approved recoater.
Case closed. Dude should lose!
..................
Post-mortem: Commencal could earn "good will" (whatever that is) by giving Dude a new frame or a reduced-cost replacement.
Post-post-mortem: "Good will" is so nebulous as to be forgettable.
1) Dude buys Commencal frame.
2) Commencal Warranty says void if paint removed and recoated.
3) Dude strips paint with undisclosed technique, repaints, rides.
4) Dude finds crack in frame, seeks warranty coverage.
5) Commencal's distributor says see point (2).
6) Dude complains about (5), ignores (2), comes to Ridemonkey to complain more.
I tend to agree with John P, probably because I'm one of those dudes who has a law degree and has been a member of the bar in 3 different states, and who has worked on a lot of product liability and contract disputes from both sides of the dispute (consumer vs manufacturer).
Also because Dude lied about stripping the paint and because there are paint removal techniques that can compromise frame strength -- hence the reason for voiding Warranty unless recoat done by factory or factory-approved recoater.
Case closed. Dude should lose!
..................
Post-mortem: Commencal could earn "good will" (whatever that is) by giving Dude a new frame or a reduced-cost replacement.
Post-post-mortem: "Good will" is so nebulous as to be forgettable.
Very nice lawyer speak. Somehow in the middle of that carefully crafted argument you neglected to mention the whole "widespread headtube cracking" issue. Case closed my ass.Recap:
1) Dude buys Commencal frame.
2) Commencal Warranty says void if paint removed and recoated.
3) Dude strips paint with undisclosed technique, repaints, rides.
4) Dude finds crack in frame, seeks warranty coverage.
5) Commencal's distributor says see point (2).
6) Dude complains about (5), ignores (2), comes to Ridemonkey to complain more.
I tend to agree with John P, probably because I'm one of those dudes who has a law degree and has been the member of the bar in 3 different states, and who has worked on a lot of product liability and contract disputes from both sides of the dispute (consumer vs manufacturer).
Also because Dude lied about stripping the paint and because there are paint removal techniques that can compromise frame strength -- hence the reason for voiding Warranty unless recoat done by factory or factory-approved recoater.
Case closed. Dude should lose!
..................
Post-mortem: Commencal could earn "good will" (whatever that is) by giving Dude a new frame or a reduced-cost replacement.
Post-post-mortem: "Good will" is so nebulous as to be forgettable.
A manufacturing issue is a manufacturing issue no matter how you look at it. NO other industry, especially not such a specialty niche corner of it, is allowed to get away with that kinda crap. Vendors get brought to court over things like that if they try to weasel out of proper manufacturing and/or support. I don't understand why the bike industry thinks it's such an exception and why people hold water for companies providing half-assed production quality.
"E.g." means "for example". Combined with "etc." it means that list is not exhaustive. The fact that a repaint might not be on the list is not conclusive.
This policy is pretty much standard in the industry. Anyone who re-paints a frame and expects a warranty replacement with no questions asked is suffering from too little information or too much entitlement.
Sure, with a known defect they should be more willing to help - almost like a recall - but at the end of the day it's their call.
This policy is pretty much standard in the industry. Anyone who re-paints a frame and expects a warranty replacement with no questions asked is suffering from too little information or too much entitlement.
Sure, with a known defect they should be more willing to help - almost like a recall - but at the end of the day it's their call.