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So, do modern high-end forks need new seals every 6 months now???...:(

kail

Monkey
Mar 14, 2002
134
0
Montana
Caution: Rant Enclosed.

So my 2012 Fox 36 Van R (purchased in 2013 new) is already leaking oil in the right leg. I have ridden A LOT since I bought the bike last March, but ZERO days at a true DH/lift-assisted park. All trail-riding/1 DH per outing. If I had to combine all of my DH for the season, I'd say it would be about the same as 3 weeks at Whistler.

So...why is my fork ALREADY leaking oil? My '06 Marz. 66RC2X NEVER leaked -- even after 3 seasons of NO MAINTENENCE, other than cleaning. I changed the oil on that fork ONE TIME in the 7 years I owned it and from DAY ONE to the day I sold it-- it performed BETTER IN EVERY REGARD than my Fox 36. So far, as far as I'm concerned the Fox's ONLY advantage it that it's lighter. BIG DEAL. I'd like to not have to spend money every 6 months on something that should last YEARS.

Is anyone else disappointed with "modern" technology? Is there any chance Fox will warranty this flaw in workmanship?
 

Tomasz

Monkey
Jul 18, 2012
339
0
Whistla
You went from the least maint intensive fork to the most maint intensive fork...

I'd say that servicing a fork every three weeks of Whistler riding would be good, with new seals needed only if said maint was neglected.
 

canadmos

Cake Tease
May 29, 2011
20,188
19,155
Canaderp
You said it yourself, you rode a lot with that fork. And like other people have mentioned, Fox does have a reputation for their seals not lasting the longest.

To make them last longer, I just change the oil a few times per season and always make sure that the foam rings are clean when I assemble the fork. Sometimes I will soak the foam rings in Fox Float Fluid, no idea if that does anything though haha. I am also pretty anal about always wiping the crud off of the lips of the seals after every single ride. I don't ride the most, but seals usually last me all season.

I find that as the seals get older, the faster the oil in the lowers will get dirty. Just have to change it more often at that point.
 
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kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
My '06 Marz. 66RC2X NEVER leaked -- even after 3 seasons of NO MAINTENENCE,
Well you're definitely more of a marzocchi customer then. They'll certainly look good for a long time.

From the outside.

Jesus help your olfactory universe once you realize what those things do to damper fluid in short order however.

Just gotta pick your poison.
 

herbman

Monkey
Feb 16, 2011
104
8
North West Tasmania
I've come off fox on to marzocchi and still seem to spending the same amount of time looking after the marzocchi as I did with the fox but I do seem to be spending a lot more $$$ on oil as every time I open the fork up it is manky and has stuff in it.
 

kail

Monkey
Mar 14, 2002
134
0
Montana
I've come off fox on to marzocchi and still seem to spending the same amount of time looking after the marzocchi as I did with the fox but I do seem to be spending a lot more $$$ on oil as every time I open the fork up it is manky and has stuff in it.
That's because NEW Marzocchis are a pale comparison to their older offerings (anything pre-2007). My rant was based on what I feel is a trend in modern forks -- they don't build them like they used to!
 

HardtailHack

used an iron once
Jan 20, 2009
6,627
5,441
They have low friction seals to stop people on the internet whinging about excessive stiction.

If You want a long service intervals put a set of Enduro seals in and make your fork feel like a piece of **** from a few years ago, I almost cried when I saw a guy with Kashima 40s and Enduro seals.

Oh yeah, Magura seals from the Wotan may fit your fork, I ran 36 seals in my Wotan as I couldn't get Magura ones quickly. Magura forks had one year service intervals and the oil was always pretty clean when I changed out my oils and that thing spent a lot of time in the rain when I was digging.
 

bdamschen

Turbo Monkey
Nov 28, 2005
3,377
156
Spreckels, CA
Haven't changed the seals on my 40 in two years. I ride a lot. I do change the oil pretty often and keep the dust wipers clean so maybe that helps.

I also have an 2008 36 on my other bike. That thing hasn't seen a single bit of maintenance since I bought it and it's just now starting to weep oil at the seals.
 

mlin32

Chimp
Apr 12, 2012
76
0
WNC
Fox is just more maintenance-intensive.....they perform well but I didn't really care for all the service and maintenance it required.
 

Full Trucker

Frikkin newb!!!
Feb 26, 2003
10,481
7,519
Exit, CO
I usually just leave a generous helping dirt and grime on my dust wipers at all times to help keep all that precious bath oil inside my fork legs. I figure if the seals ever do fail (maybe they already have?) the buildup of grunge makes a good backup system. Works like a champion.
 

HAB

Chelsea from Seattle
Apr 28, 2007
11,580
2,005
Seattle
I usually just leave a generous helping dirt and grime on my dust wipers at all times to help keep all that precious bath oil inside my fork legs. I figure if the seals ever do fail (maybe they already have?) the buildup of grunge makes a good backup system. Works like a champion.
I prefer to just not put any bath oil in my forks. Boom, no leaking.
 

Udi

RM Chief Ornithologist
Mar 14, 2005
4,915
1,200
I prefer not to ride my bike. Boom, no leaking.
Unless you own a Risse.

Is anyone else disappointed with "modern" technology?
No. I own a 40 and get a year of hard riding out of seals, often a little more. Maybe it's because I service my fork.

Some people just belong on Marzocchi though and you're one of them, so quit your bitching and buy one again.
 

Kanye West

220# bag of hacktastic
Aug 31, 2006
3,740
470
If you want your seals to last and you ride in really dusty or wet conditions, then you HAVE to do some routine preventative care to the stanchions. Washing it off and giving it a half-assed drying off, or putting it away dusty and grimey is death to seals.

The two contributors from the situations mentioned above are dried water spots on the stanchions, and dried up dust/grime, usually mixed with fork oil.

You can mitigate this by wiping down and DRYING the stanchions after each ride, and taking some silicone teflon spray or fork oil on a rag (just a little bit) and wiping the stanchions down. Every once in a while it's worth popping the dust wiper up and cleaning out whatever's under there too and applying a LIGHT dab of grease.

My seals pretty much never fail with this method. I can't recall having any seal failures since doing that for the last 6 or 7 years, and anyone I know who's followed those basics have had similar results. This is especially true for the hard chrome finish stanchions on my dirt bikes too - careful rebuilds and attention to the stanchions after riding, and I NEVER have them leak. That's with some really high peak pressures and constant oil sitting on the seals.


With the Fox forks that have the dust wiper and the foam ring, I've always wondered if those things really hate being upside down, or worse yet, being stored upside down in a truck or something and driven up to elevation.
 

kail

Monkey
Mar 14, 2002
134
0
Montana
No. I own a 40 and get a year of hard riding out of seals, often a little more. Maybe it's because I service my fork.

Some people just belong on Marzocchi though and you're one of them, so quit your bitching and buy one again.
In my opinion, and experience, a fork should not NEED service every year (I still do it anyway, or at least did for a long time.) My '06 Marz 66RC2X happened to perform flawlessly for 3 years with no service, and when I poured the old oil out it looked new. This is regardless of how often and how hard you ride the thing. I've been mountain biking religously for over 20 years and have gone through more bikes than I can remember, riding them as hard or harder than the average guy -- and I have to say that I've had more trouble with newer products than I ever did in the early to mid 2000's era. I just think we ought to demand more out of our products considering we're PAYING more and more for them every year.

It isn't just the maintenance issue I've noticed. My Fox simply does not perform as well as my 66 did. It's not bad by any means, but my 66 was a thing of BEAUTY. I would happily buy another Marzocchi, but after '06 their quality control went way downhill. I don't trust them anymore; as they are not the same company they once were.

Really, my rant was pointing out the fact that a 2012 (and most likely 2013, 14) product does not hold up to something 6 years older. Oh yeah, and it costs MORE.
 
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kail

Monkey
Mar 14, 2002
134
0
Montana
@Hacktastic:

I will try that with my next round of seals. Where I ride it's either very dusty or ridiculous mud; very seldom is it in between. I could have been better about cleaning my stanchions. I guess I just got spoiled by my years on Marzocchi forks...
 

canadmos

Cake Tease
May 29, 2011
20,188
19,155
Canaderp
Why did you get a new fork if your old one was so good?

How often do you change the oil in your car? Do you neglect that too, even if your car still appears to be working properly?

Changing the oil in a Fox fork takes literally ten minutes and a bottle of $12-$15 oil will last you a whole wack load of oil changes.
 

gemini2k

Turbo Monkey
Jul 31, 2005
3,526
117
San Francisco
I would happily buy another Marzocchi, but after '06 their quality control went way downhill. I don't trust them anymore; as they are not the same company they once were.

Really, my rant was pointing out the fact that a 2012 (and most likely 2013, 14) product does not hold up to something 6 years older. Oh yeah, and it costs MORE.
I've had 2 06-07 66's, and 08, 2010, and 2012 888's and 2008 and 2012 55's, and a 2010 4x (among other brands and forks). I think you have a little "get off my lawn" perspective. The current zokes feel wayyyyyy better than earlier ones. What quality issues are you referring to exactly? I'm pretty sure they are using the same seals as they always were, and their bushing tolerances have gotten BETTER than they were pre-07 (I swear to god if someone brings up 08-09 issues...).

I went about a year and a half or maybe 2 years between oil seals on my 08 888. I put over a million feet of very on that thing before I retired it to backup status. There pre-2012 dampers are kinda meh, but chassis, seals, etc. are pretty bullet proof. And the dampers performance might not be great, but I've never had one leak or blowup or die on me in anyway on any fork. I also didn't do anywhere near the level of maintenance Hacktastic discussed.

Also, I believe retail prices have been the same. I know until 2012 the 888 prices were the same as 08, they went up like 30-40 bucks for the 888 ti in 2013. I'm not 100% positive, but pretty damn sure that the prices were in line with what they were in 07 and before. It's hard to compare apples to oranges though. You can't compare a 2004 888 with steel springs to a 2012 888 Evo v.2 Ti. They might even be cheaper now after accounting for inflation. You absolutely CANNOT beat the value of the 55 CR or 888 CR products right now. What you pay for those v. what you get, holy cow.

P.S. I'm not a zoke fan boy. I think 1 out of the 5 suspension elements on my bikes right now is a Marzocchi.
 
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Kanye West

220# bag of hacktastic
Aug 31, 2006
3,740
470
In my opinion, and experience, a fork should not NEED service every year
Durrrrrrwhat?

The oil that goes into these things (especially at the factory level) is NOT super high quality stuff. It does hell to the internals and the finish on the inside of the lowers casting by sitting there forever and ever, especially after being broken down from use.
 

gemini2k

Turbo Monkey
Jul 31, 2005
3,526
117
San Francisco
Durrrrrrwhat?

The oil that goes into these things (especially at the factory level) is NOT super high quality stuff. It does hell to the internals and the finish on the inside of the lowers casting by sitting there forever and ever, especially after being broken down from use.
Yeah, even if its not dirty, its broken down WAYYYYYYYYYY before a year of riding is over.
 

Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
18,850
9,556
AK
Why did you get a new fork if your old one was so good?

How often do you change the oil in your car? Do you neglect that too, even if your car still appears to be working properly?
Ask me how often I change the seals on my car's shocks.
 

HardtailHack

used an iron once
Jan 20, 2009
6,627
5,441
Why does the oil break down, it doesn't just get contaminated? Engine oil and gearbox oil I understand but I'd assume you could filter suspension fluid and re use it unless air or magnesium do something to it???
 

Kanye West

220# bag of hacktastic
Aug 31, 2006
3,740
470
Ask me how often I change the seals on my car's shocks.
1) OEM units are crimped shut and cannot be rebuilt.

2) OEM units are toast by about 50,000 miles. The fact that there's still SOME fluid in them, the shaft end and the rebound valving is typically downwards, and the vehicle is supported by the springs and generally keeps the suspension squashed is about the only thing that makes them remotely safe to continue driving past that point. People just acclimate to the body roll and ****ty handling and over-oscillation.
 

Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
18,850
9,556
AK
1) OEM units are crimped shut and cannot be rebuilt.

2) OEM units are toast by about 50,000 miles. The fact that there's still SOME fluid in them, the shaft end and the rebound valving is typically downwards, and the vehicle is supported by the springs and generally keeps the suspension squashed is about the only thing that makes them remotely safe to continue driving past that point. People just acclimate to the body roll and ****ty handling and over-oscillation.
Err, no, many last much longer than 50K, but even so, we're talking years aren't we?
 

sbabuser

Turbo Monkey
Dec 22, 2004
1,114
55
Golden, CO
In my opinion, and experience, a fork should not NEED service every year (I still do it anyway, or at least did for a long time.) My '06 Marz 66RC2X happened to perform flawlessly for 3 years with no service, and when I poured the old oil out it looked new.
I think your 66 wasn't working as flawlessly for all that time as you think. A bunch of CO locals were racing on '06 888 rc2x's when they were new. I changed my oil after a couple races (following the recommended service interval), and it had very noticeably less stiction post service. Comparing it side by side to a teammate's 888 with the original oil inside, they didn't feel like the same fork. Nothing is every as good as the good old days. Not even the good old days...
 

jackalope

Mental acuity - 1%
Jan 9, 2004
7,596
5,894
in a single wide, cooking meth...
^^
Definitely true, although it should be said that changing the oil in that model 888 was a pretty simply and inexpensive procedure, versus having to service a FIT cart for example. IMO, there's the issue of the seals seeping/leaking oil, which in most cases won't effect the damping characteristics, versus the issue of replacing the damping oil, which can vary wildly in difficulty and expense.
 

Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
18,850
9,556
AK
I think your 66 wasn't working as flawlessly for all that time as you think. A bunch of CO locals were racing on '06 888 rc2x's when they were new. I changed my oil after a couple races (following the recommended service interval), and it had very noticeably less stiction post service. Comparing it side by side to a teammate's 888 with the original oil inside, they didn't feel like the same fork. Nothing is every as good as the good old days. Not even the good old days...
I had an 06 66. Amazingly great chassi, including the seals. Damping was so so, and the dumb air-assist spring made it feel pretty bad at times. It added up to a fork that could take a lot of abuse and just keep going season after season, I bought it new when it came out and sold it with my bike in 2012. I was fairly satisfied with the fork, but great damping wasn't really one of it's strengths.

A 55 RC3 Evo V2 (similar chassi) is way better damping-wise. The Evo V2 damper is similar to what I had in my avalanched 888, and there's just no comparison.

All that said, I had to replace the seals on my 66 about every season or so (no stanchion scratches). If I didn't it would eventually start puking oil. I may have gone through 4 sets of seals on it. I changed the oil of course, but that 66 chassi with it's lubrication didn't really require you to change oil before anything failed either, so not really apples to apples I know.
 

Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
18,850
9,556
AK
And this all comes down to semi-bath forks. It's a concept that the fork companies have embraced, didn't quite get figured out right initially, and still kind of struggle to keep going. As users, we have to be acutely aware of this. Do you want an 8lb fork or a 6.5lb fork? They'll perform the same assuming proper oil levels. 99% of the time, people will take the 6.5lb fork. That's a huge weight savings and "all I got to do is check the oil levels". The company that makes the 8lb oil bath fork isn't going to last making that fork.
 

William42

fork ways
Jul 31, 2007
3,908
634
That era 66 was the only fork I've ever had that stripped itself along the damper rod from a normal riding impact.


They weren't all that. Just felt squishy at 0.2mph.

Oh sorry......I mean 'plush'
But man if they weren't just the plushest forks ever. You just can't use 90% of your travel on a 6 inch high rock at 1mph while not bottoming out jumping from a shipping container to flat ground like you used to be able to.
 

Udi

RM Chief Ornithologist
Mar 14, 2005
4,915
1,200
They don't make shipping containers like they used to.

Is anyone else disappointed with "modern" shipping container technology? Is there any chance they will warranty this flaw in workmanship?
 

maxyedor

<b>TOOL PRO</b>
Oct 20, 2005
5,496
3,140
In the bathroom, fighting a battle
Ask me how often I change the seals on my car's shocks.
Your car's shocks are the equivalent to the fork on a $150 Walmart bike, which will continue to perform just as poorly for years with zero maintenance. The forks/shocks on a high end MTB are the equivalent to the Kings/Fox on the Trophy Trucks and Class 1 cars I prep. You know how often I replace seals and change the oil on them?

High performance dampers are finicky. Further, when things are tuned perfectly, the minor changes that occur as oil breaks down or gets dirty makes a noticeable difference. Just the nature of the beast.

You could put similar seals to what your car runs in an MTB fork, but the stiction would be unbearable. People want supple suspension, so they put slippery seals in forks, those slippery seals don't seal as well as sticky ones, and wear out faster.


Old school Zokes are the best from a reliability standpoint, but they're the worst from a suspension performance standpoint. They're "dumb" and as such, reliable, but the market shunned them as other companies started putting SPV, CTD, RC2, AC-DC, R2D2, and a whole host of other acronyms in their forks. Now Zokes suffer the same reliability flaws, but is replacing a $30 set of seals and $5 in oil every once in a while really that bad?
 

HAB

Chelsea from Seattle
Apr 28, 2007
11,580
2,005
Seattle
Your car's shocks are the equivalent to the fork on a $150 Walmart bike, which will continue to perform just as poorly for years with zero maintenance. The forks/shocks on a high end MTB are the equivalent to the Kings/Fox on the Trophy Trucks and Class 1 cars I prep. You know how often I replace seals and change the oil on them?

High performance dampers are finicky. Further, when things are tuned perfectly, the minor changes that occur as oil breaks down or gets dirty makes a noticeable difference. Just the nature of the beast.

You could put similar seals to what your car runs in an MTB fork, but the stiction would be unbearable. People want supple suspension, so they put slippery seals in forks, those slippery seals don't seal as well as sticky ones, and wear out faster.
Exactly. The design criteria are totally different. Your car is aiming largely for reliability, a modern high end bike is shooting for performance. There absolutely is a tradeoff to be had.