Quantcast

so i am finally giving up mucking about with my shock

Discussion in 'Downhill & Freeride' started by dhkid, Feb 16, 2008.

  1. dhkid

    dhkid Turbo Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    6 / 0
    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2005
    Messages:
    3,359
    Location:
    Malaysia
    this guessing game is getting annoying, dhx is a horrible shock to work on, high oil weight and low amount of shims doesn't leave much room for fine tuning.

    so, i have decided that i am going to treat my self to something yummy.

    1) push my dhx

    2) push a roco

    3) bos my dhx (if the kit is still available)

    4) get a RS vivid.

    push-ing my dhx would be the cheapest, at £130. for the roco i would have to buy a roco first, then its £140 for the works. bos will probably be quite expensive. and around £250 for a vivid.

    i am leaning towards the pushed roco. what do you guys think?

    i am 9st/125lbs/57kgs. ride a commencal supreme dh.

    one more thing, you guys have any feedback on what push does to the rebound? coz i have heard that its slowed down quite a bit, i like my rebound fast so that the bike is lively, not really because its packing down in any way.


    incidentally, its £340 for bos fox 40 kit. boy would i kill for that.
     

    Please register to disable this ad.

  2. rowlands

    rowlands Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    0 / 0
    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2006
    Messages:
    159
    I dont think the vivid will clear the rear pivot due to the bigger spring, but this will only affect it at full travel.
     
  3. dhkid

    dhkid Turbo Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    6 / 0
    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2005
    Messages:
    3,359
    Location:
    Malaysia
    good point, i emailed commencal and haven't got a reply yet. i think i am more set on getting something pushed then the vivid now.
     
  4. FrontRangeDH

    FrontRangeDH Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    0 / 0
    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2007
    Messages:
    591
    Location:
    15 sq. miles surrounded by reality
    get the DHX pushed, I got mine done and it was awesome, never had to touch it again...for over a year
     
  5. Pockets-o-Grey

    Rep/Likes:
    0 / 0
    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2007
    Messages:
    43
    you weigh 125 pounds.... like you even need suspension. keep your dhx and ride more and magically your shock will perform much better. why dont you let us in on why your shock is not performing up to your standards?
     
  6. jamesdc

    jamesdc Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    0 / 0
    Joined:
    May 6, 2007
    Messages:
    469
    I'd get the roco, I just switched from a stock dhx to a stock roco and it is a huge improvement, much more sensitive and doesn't bottom easily any more. Seems like a perfect match for my 888. I can only assume a pushed roco would be even better.
     
  7. dhkid

    dhkid Turbo Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    6 / 0
    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2005
    Messages:
    3,359
    Location:
    Malaysia
    wow, your comment on how i barely need suspension shows how in depth your knowledge of suspension it.:thumb:

    i can set my shock set up for 90% of the stuff that i ride just fine, no complaints at all. thats basically with a fair bit of lsc, fast rebound. not too much boost valve.

    its those pesky small/mid size bumps when you hit them really fast. not big bumps like you will get in a rock garden something you would get from a nice high speed section of bit roots.

    i could of course back off on the LSC and the shock will work fine for that bit, but will blow through its travel everywhere else. but thats why i am thinking of sending it off, coz i know it possible to have the best of both worlds. i tried a friends bos and it has that best of both worlds, loads of compression but opens up when it gets rough.
     
  8. davep

    davep Turbo Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    0 / 0
    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2005
    Messages:
    3,279
    Location:
    seattle
    I am guessing you would have the 'pushing' done by Tft?

    I talked to Daren @ push a bit ago about rebound issues, as I ride a sunday with the current DHX rebound all the way open. I had heard that some of the early Push tunes for the sunday were a bit too restricive. His answer was that the early ones were found to be too slow due to an issue with the rebound check valve that has been fixxed.

    He assured me that they could make my shock better than it is, and I would be happy....so what does that mean??

    I think that if you are honest with them about what you want, they can make that happen (ie: send them a more detailed explanation of what you want, rather than just the standard 'what bike', 'what rider weight'). The should be able to mix and match parts if needed to give you the range of damping that you wnat. Send an e-mail or two and let them know what you want/expect for your $$. If they say they can do it..hold them to it.
     
  9. dhkid

    dhkid Turbo Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    6 / 0
    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2005
    Messages:
    3,359
    Location:
    Malaysia
    cheers, that clears things up. i have sent emails to tf and push asking about it. i dont mind slowing down the rebound as long as they give me an explanation that i can accept. i know that there is a very high chance that my set up is really whack and i am willing to listen.
     
  10. klunky

    klunky Turbo Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    0 / 6
    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2003
    Messages:
    1,079
    Location:
    Scotland
    What will you do when push do an upgrade for the vivid?
     
  11. dhkid

    dhkid Turbo Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    6 / 0
    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2005
    Messages:
    3,359
    Location:
    Malaysia
    probably think about getting a double barrel or the bos shock if i was going to spend that kinda money.
     
  12. top_dog

    top_dog Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    0 / 0
    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2006
    Messages:
    209
    Location:
    Australia
    Just splurge for the BOS shock. It is unbelievably good. It really does make my Boxxers feel second rate.
     
  13. pelo

    pelo Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    0 / 0
    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2007
    Messages:
    709
    Push makes difference, but not a huge difference in small bump sensivity. I guess people will have comments on this, but it´s just how it felt for me. The high/low speed rebound was much better, but I think the problem you have comes down to the pp / boost valve assembly. I´ve had the DHX on four different bikes and it´s been the same problem, pushed or not. Bad small bump senstivity. However, I think you need to reduce that propedal, although it can´t be fully removed. Not sure, but I think heavier riders experience less problem with this because of a higher springrates.
    I´m pretty tired of the DHX, going for a vivid next time.
     
  14. dhkid

    dhkid Turbo Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    6 / 0
    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2005
    Messages:
    3,359
    Location:
    Malaysia
    thanks for you comments, may i know what bike it was on and how much you weigh?

    thats what i have been trying to do with the dhx, i have reshimmed the main compression shim stack, but there is really too little room for fine tunning with the high old weight and low amount of shims.

    i am not looking for a miracle, just something so i can stop wondering about things, shut up and ride.


    that was my main concern with going with something so good, there would be no way i would be able to afford the bos kit for the 40s and that would just piss me off. basically i am trying not to bite off more then i can chew.
     
  15. pelo

    pelo Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    0 / 0
    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2007
    Messages:
    709
    Sure, 70kg, bb7, high octane, glory, sunday.
     
  16. DirtyMike

    DirtyMike Turbo Fluffer

    Rep/Likes:
    59 / 711
    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2005
    Messages:
    14,160
    Location:
    My own world inside my head
    IMO Push teh DHX, there really good at matching up the build to your ridng style, personal size, and bike. They have all the RnD behind getting it right, and they stand behind there service
     
  17. nugget

    nugget Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    0 / 0
    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2006
    Messages:
    187
    Location:
    somewhere near a town
    How about a CCDB?

    Can they fit?

    hahaha
     
  18. Ian Collins

    Ian Collins Turbo Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    6 / 0
    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2001
    Messages:
    1,429
    Location:
    Pacific Beach, San Diego, CA

    there's your answer.....get a BOS......loads of low speed comp is great as long as it opens up when it gets rough.....do it!
     
  19. Ian Collins

    Ian Collins Turbo Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    6 / 0
    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2001
    Messages:
    1,429
    Location:
    Pacific Beach, San Diego, CA
    or........

    don't push a roco....just tune it yourself....you can do that !
     
  20. dhkid

    dhkid Turbo Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    6 / 0
    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2005
    Messages:
    3,359
    Location:
    Malaysia
    if they still have the dhx kit i might look into it, if its the new shock then i would be hesitant, i want to be happy with my bike overall, not just happy with my rear shock and because its soo good see the flaws in my front fork. (its a very slippery slope to be on.)

    i am hoping thats what push does is similar to bos, anyone can back that up? cpz thats the only tuning service i haven't tried, i have tried mojo and bos.

    true about the roco, but again, it would be educated guess work. what they do is a science, unlike what i am doing.

    mainly i am giving up because i have to go 3 months at a time with no place i can work on my shock. i have to wait till i go home for holidays to mess with it, if i get something wrong, i have to live with it for 3 months. which isn't pleasant.
     
  21. dhkid

    dhkid Turbo Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    6 / 0
    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2005
    Messages:
    3,359
    Location:
    Malaysia
    yea, sure. pity the human body cant last 3 weeks with out food, otherwise i would seriously look into that with my weekly allowance being about £100.
     
  22. nugget

    nugget Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    0 / 0
    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2006
    Messages:
    187
    Location:
    somewhere near a town
    Order the meals from malaysia and get it Fed Ex to ya. Its like 7x cheaper rite?

    haha :)


    Go with any service, i'm sure it will feel good either ways.

    Has Push started to offer the factory tune again, I remember they stopping it due to some machining problems.
     
  23. MobileChernobyl

    Rep/Likes:
    2 / 0
    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2006
    Messages:
    394
    Location:
    Golden, CO
    From how you talk it sounds like you've messed around with the dhx quite a bit. If your having trouble with the high speed chattery small to mid size rocks (we call them baby heads) I've tuned my dhx to destroy that stuff almost too well. Have you played around with the spring weight/preload in the "boost" valve? different bikes respond differently to different shock tunes, but I've got mine dialed in on the Maestro. Maybe just ride faster over them till you hit planing hull speed of the bike
     
  24. djamgils

    djamgils Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    0 / 0
    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2007
    Messages:
    349
    Location:
    Holland
    If you would push your dhx then you would still have a shock that uses pro-pedal that gives you some platform and you would still have the boost valve that influences everything.
    On the other hand it could be possible that push is able to create a setting that works for you but if you want to try what the shock is capable of with other settings then the push settings you will notice again that adjusting the dhx is a pain in the ass.
    Or am I wrong in this?

    with the vivid you know that al the adjustments made are independant. There are 3 different pistons and shim stacks available that you can combinate yourself. but nevertheless the stock shock is already great and better then the dhx. No platform, as far is I noticed no progressive damping, good range of LSC.
     
  25. dhkid

    dhkid Turbo Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    6 / 0
    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2005
    Messages:
    3,359
    Location:
    Malaysia
    nugget, if you are happy to keep me alive that way, i think we might have a solution.:lighten: sure i can have instant noodles and cheap stuff instead, but i like my hair, and if i loose anymore weight i reckon i might be considered an anorexic. :p

    the old factory tune has been dropped, i doubt it was due to manufacturing problems since its all done in house now. more likely fox got pissed that push was basically saying the boost valve sucks. go have a look at the description now, in bold: (Utilizing Fox Boost Valve Technology and adjustable Propedal) they are making it very clear that the boost valve is still there.


    i have been playing with the compression shim stack and rebound shim stack. also some other stuff like a one way valve in the piston bolt. where abouts can you get replacement springs?

    i definitely try to ride as fast as possible so that it doesn't become a problem. (dont we all?:P) but there is bound to be a section where its going to be a problem. my solution right now has been to 'man up' and take it.

    basically to get the sensitivity i am happy with, the shock will be too wallowy everywhere else.
     
  26. dhkid

    dhkid Turbo Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    6 / 0
    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2005
    Messages:
    3,359
    Location:
    Malaysia
    davep - did you get the old factory tune done to your shock? ie, was the boost valve taken out or replaced? coz the stock boost valve is in the package you got back from push.

    thanks again for the parts, i used the shims but obviously haven't used them well. i got the bike set up perfect for a race i has last year on a smother course, bike felt so lively, flew out of berms. but had to change that because there was too much LSC for any proper dh course, rear end felt like a hand tail on baby heads, skipped everything braking on the steep bits.


    djamgils - i was hoping that push do something to sort out the pp/boost valve bit too? well, what ever it is, i reckon they know what they are doing.
     
  27. davep

    davep Turbo Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    0 / 0
    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2005
    Messages:
    3,279
    Location:
    seattle
    Yes those parts were from a factory race system that I had done for a Turner DHR that I owned (it got stollen not too long after and Push quit that mod the week I got the shock back from them).
    That shock felt great, but it is no longer available. That combined with the sunday ratios is what led me to mail Push. I wanted to hear a bit more about the differences of the current tune (with boost) vs what I had experienced (no boost).

    I am after a similar feel to what you describe. I am able to get the boxxer to feel this way (no wallow, yet open up for high speed hits no matter the amplitude)..and want a similar feel with the shock.

    No shock that I know offers an adjustable high/low transition like you can find in current forks..well maybe the CCDB. I have one on a turner 6 pack and it feels good, but I tend to think like has been mentioned, that it might be overdamped for lower weight, lower leverage applications. It felt overdamped on the 6pack at first...but with some speed it is great.

    On another note, Daren posted this on mtbr a few days ago:
    "Thanks for that.....rumor has it that the CCDB might have some company in the 4-way adjust game real soon" in respons to someone praising Push's work, yet thinking the CCDB was still a better option. ????
     
  28. Steve M

    Steve M Turbo Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    6 / 23
    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2007
    Messages:
    1,997
    Location:
    Whistler
    haha dude, get your spring rate right first... all the damping perfection in the world isn't gonna work if your springs are too stiff.
     
  29. pelo

    pelo Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    0 / 0
    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2007
    Messages:
    709
    Yea, like MobileChernobyl says, increasing that pp-spring preload will make it way more sensitive. You don´t necesserly need a new spring, you can shim it with a small spacer to increase preload. If you find the right size for it.

    With this mod, you probebly don´t need the wallowy shimstack setup.
     
  30. Bulldog

    Bulldog Turbo Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    6 / 0
    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2001
    Messages:
    1,009
    Location:
    Wisconsin
    According to PUSH themselves they can make a Van R feel even better than a DHX - more flow, less compicated flow, etc. Maybe it's the lack of the Boost Valve? I got a new Van R for just $249 - if you can find a used one even better!
     
  31. PUSHIND

    PUSHIND PUSH Industries (Duh)

    Rep/Likes:
    3 / 28
    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2003
    Messages:
    168
    Location:
    Colorado
    If you haven't, you definitely should send your shock back in for our new piston bolt and rebound valve kit for the Sunday. It would make a world of difference and we won't charge you to switch it out. drop me a note at dm@pushindustries.com and I'll get you the paperwork you need. Turn around would only be a day or two max.

    If you're familiar with the disassembly/reassembly of the ROCO shock you can certainly change out oil weight or some vlaving shims, but our Factory Tune kit for the ROCO goes way beyond that. WE use proprietary molded seals and wipers to reduce friction and increase sealability, proprietary piston and valve designs to increase flow rate and change the overall characteristics of the shock as well as bottoming systems that are adjustable based on rider weight and the leverage of the frame.

    We've always offered the Factory Tune for the DHX, it was our Factory Race System which was discontinued.

    LOL, it wasn't FOX for sure. One of the components that wasn't a machined part was sourced out to a Vendor. In order to keep the tolerance that we were looking for the price had to go up significantly and that killed the program.

    For certain applications, a tuned VanR is very good for sure. Just lacks additional adjustability.

    Darren
     
  32. dhkid

    dhkid Turbo Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    6 / 0
    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2005
    Messages:
    3,359
    Location:
    Malaysia
    cheers for the reply Darren, what would you have to say about the all out tuned roco vs the factory system for the dhx? coz the main difference would be the boost valve. is anything changed to the boost valve? i am a light rider on a supreme dh.


    steve - i am going to get the spring sorted asap, but i think will go for one of the tuning services eventually, once i get money aside.
     
  33. Udi

    Udi RM Chief Ornithologist: “I Brake for Birds”

    Rep/Likes:
    93 / 789
    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2005
    Messages:
    4,706
    He tells me you're running 21% sag, are you insane? That mere fact makes this whole thread pretty much null and void. The fact that 90% of riders seem to be more than happy with their stock dhx tends to back that up.

    Get your springrate right first, and then worry about damping!
     
  34. slowracer

    slowracer Chimp

    Rep/Likes:
    0 / 0
    Joined:
    May 14, 2006
    Messages:
    18
    Udi i think dhkid is talking about the spring for the boost valve inside the shock...

    btw he's at 21% sag coz he has just lost some weight, usually it's closer to 30%, and even at the right sag he has been complaining about the same things about the dhx.

    u suppose dhkid is part of that 10% who dont...
     
  35. dhkid

    dhkid Turbo Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    6 / 0
    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2005
    Messages:
    3,359
    Location:
    Malaysia
    yea, i just measured it two days ago and its 25%, still way too low. i must have lost some weight, last time i checked about 3 months ago it was just fine.

    225 spring is on the way.

    udi, like slow racer has said, i have had this problem for a while now, pretty much when i started using more lsc after learning from you guys and then being able to hit things harder. the low sag has been like that for 2 months at the most. its been a stressful term at uni.

    forgot to add, i will also try using more sag, maybe up to 40% as steve suggested since he thinks that will be better for light riders. was looking into getting a dhx air for a bit, but they are expensive.


    slowracer, is that you ian? i wasn't talking about the spring in the boost valve, taking about the main spring.
     
  36. Udi

    Udi RM Chief Ornithologist: “I Brake for Birds”

    Rep/Likes:
    93 / 789
    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2005
    Messages:
    4,706
    If you're currently running a 250 and getting 25% sag, you won't get 33% (which you need, at least) with a 225 spring. I would have picked a 200. By the way, you couldn't have lost THAT much weight (to go from 30 to 21% is crazy)... I reckon you mis-measured either then or now.

    The TFTuned calc is somewhat accurate so see what that spits out for your weight / bike I guess.
     
  37. dhkid

    dhkid Turbo Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    6 / 0
    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2005
    Messages:
    3,359
    Location:
    Malaysia
    i need to get a good scale to know, i have loss 5 kgs over a week coz of food poisoning, 5 over 2-3 months seems possible. i loose wieght fast but cant put on fast.

    hmmm, a 200? i dont know of anyone that does that low a spring rate.
     
  38. dhkid

    dhkid Turbo Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    6 / 0
    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2005
    Messages:
    3,359
    Location:
    Malaysia
    a little update:

    i have since got a 225 spring and the push tune. its been about 2 months now.

    i also put on a bit of weight over the last few months, now just about 60kgs. getting 38% sag on the 225 spring. even went up a spring rate on my 40.

    i just got it back from tf for having it retuned with slightly lighter damping. will put up a long reply once i get some riding time on it.

    so far i have been very happy with it, customer service at tf tuned is the best i have ever had with a bike company.
     
  39. JohnnyC

    JohnnyC Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    5 / 1
    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2006
    Messages:
    401
    Location:
    Rotorua, New Zealand
    I've seen a Low speed compression adjuster made by Push I believe that replaces the boost valve, that could just be something for their sponsored riders at this point though.


    I've removed the boost valve entirely from my DHX as an experiment in my KHS. I had to make something to plug the place where the boost valve seats to stop it from leaking though but it would be possible to leave the valve in there, and just take out the rebound check shim.

    After that all the damping is through the shim stack which I also changed (changed all but 2 shims and added 2 more) so the air pressure would need to be kept quite high. So far I've been running at 200psi with no cavitation or any other ill-effects and it rides at least as good as it did with the boost valve. I'll try dropping the pressure to ~170 and then lower to see what range it works at.
     
  40. Steve M

    Steve M Turbo Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    6 / 23
    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2007
    Messages:
    1,997
    Location:
    Whistler
    Sick, so you changed two major variables at once, including the most obvious one that you definitely had wrong before (spring rate) and now the Push tune has clearly made your bike much better :)