[Changleen]

I don't normally watch TV much any more, I got rid of my cable package nearly a year ago now because everything is just such crap.

So anyway, last night I was tooling around downstairs and my housemate was watching CSI: Miami on TV. I happened to notice as I went past the TV that all the Lab coats in CSI have a little logo on them with "Miami Dade PD: In God We Trust" written on them. Great seperation of church and state there. I am (vaguely ) aware that this show is fictional, so I was just wondering if this was:

a) An attempt by the network to further the republican agenda.
b) A genuine reflection of the sorry state of constitutional ignorance in the US.
c) A dumb thing to have on the uniform of a supposedly scientific investigative unit.
d) Other.

Opinions?

 

[Toshi]

turn the tv back off and forget about it

 

[BurlyShirley]

Which "God" and which "church" are you referring to? I think you miss the point of the "Church and State" thing all together.

 

[Changleen]

Toshi: TV is off, don't worry. This is for arguing about though. I like arguing. It's interactive entertainment at it's finest! (Well nearly!)

Shirl: Church and God: Any.

Arn't the Police a government dept?

 

[Transcend]

TV is relatively good right now. CSI Miami is ok, battlestar galactica, mythbusters and Lost kick ass.

 

[stevew]

download seasons 1-4 of The Wire.

And pay attention. People think it is a hard show to follow.

 

[Kihaji]

I don't normally watch TV much any more, I got rid of my cable package nearly a year ago now because everything is just such crap.

So anyway, last night I was tooling around downstairs and my housemate was watching CSI: Miami on TV. I happened to notice as I went past the TV that all the Lab coats in CSI have a little logo on them with "Miami Dade PD: In God We Trust" written on them. Great seperation of church and state there. I am (vaguely ) aware that this show is fictional, so I was just wondering if this was:

a) An attempt by the network to further the republican agenda.
b) A genuine reflection of the sorry state of constitutional ignorance in the US.
c) A dumb thing to have on the uniform of a supposedly scientific investigative unit.
d) Other.

Opinions?

How about e) There is nothing in the US Constitution about separation of church and state. That concept was in a letter from Jefferson. (As a side, if you read the Declaration of Independence, all human rights are given by the "Creator")

There is no conspiracy.

 

[Silver]

(As a side, if you read the Declaration of Independence, all human rights are given by the "Creator")

To a bunch of Deists pre-Darwin, that probably made sense.

 

[kinghami3]

How about e) There is nothing in the US Constitution about separation of church and state. That concept was in a letter from Jefferson. (As a side, if you read the Declaration of Independence, all human rights are given by the "Creator")

There is no conspiracy.

Umm... no. They were originally ideas brought forth by Jefferson, but they eventually worked their way into written law (I can't recall of the top of my head, but just think about any church-tax fiasco and those laws will come into play). Also, most will claim that clauses dealing with equality for all mean that there can be no government supported church in the US.

I don't normally watch TV much any more, I got rid of my cable package nearly a year ago now because everything is just such crap.

So anyway, last night I was tooling around downstairs and my housemate was watching CSI: Miami on TV. I happened to notice as I went past the TV that all the Lab coats in CSI have a little logo on them with "Miami Dade PD: In God We Trust" written on them. Great seperation of church and state there. I am (vaguely ) aware that this show is fictional, so I was just wondering if this was:

a) An attempt by the network to further the republican agenda.
b) A genuine reflection of the sorry state of constitutional ignorance in the US.
c) A dumb thing to have on the uniform of a supposedly scientific investigative unit.
d) Other.

a) God is not a Republican agenda, but trying to incorporate the God into the government generally is. I just wanted to clarify that.
b) We are pretty ignorant. I can't even remember most of it (for example, any specific references to the church and state), but for the most part I think Americans get the gist of it. We save the rest for the lawyers.
c) I don't think most religions are opposed to science. For example, if it was proven that Jesus never existed, it would completely discredit Christianity. Sure there are plenty of people who will argue this, but constant and vigilant scientific observations keep Christians in a reality check. Remember that religion deals with faith, not proven knowledge (i.e. Jesus must have existed in bodily form, died, and have risen for Christianity to be valid, but the fact that he rose from the dead is an issue of faith, and is not historically provable). However, all too often, especially when the Bible is taken literally word for word, science is viewed as dangerous, and theories like evolution and moral development become heretical, which is just silly, IMHO. For example, I'm currently studying for a psych exam at my Christian university. Though it has a strong theology department (which I am part of), it also has strong engineering, philosophy, biology, pre-med, and psychology programs (including grad and post-grad work). While Christian, these programs are intellectually vigilant which reflects the fact that Christianity embraces science. Religion and science are not opposing forces, but should be thought of as parallels for different aspects of life.

 

[ukjason]

TV is relatively good right now. CSI Miami is ok, battlestar galactica, mythbusters and Lost kick ass.

mythbusters rule

 

[Changleen]

How about e) There is nothing in the US Constitution about separation of church and state. That concept was in a letter from Jefferson.

Well, it is in one of the clauses of the constitution, so it's not exactly not in the constitution either. Secondly it has been used as the basis of many supreme court rullings which generally form the basis of actually practiced law, and it's generally looked on as a good thing by sensible people so we can probably agree it's pretty important eh?

In this case I simply hope a real life forensic operator never feels the need to trust in god when he's interpreting the results of a case any of us might happen to be involved in.

In general I think it's quite sensible to oppose the creeping stain of theocracy that Bush's policies are pushing on the US in foreign aid, education, science and general moral agendas, and it seems like this might be an effect of it in the media.

(As a side, if you read the Declaration of Independence, all human rights are given by the "Creator")

Yeah, like Silver said, it's theism, but either way, these guys had clearly decided their government should be seperate from the individual and oft irrational beliefs of religion, and that means anybodys, whether it's Xtians, Hindus or FSM'ists.

There is no conspiracy.

Ah, that's where you're wrong... There are so many conspiricies it's ridiculous.

 

[Changleen]

a) God is not a Republican agenda, but trying to incorporate the God into the government generally is. I just wanted to clarify that.
b) We are pretty ignorant. I can't even remember most of it (for example, any specific references to the church and state), but for the most part I think Americans get the gist of it. We save the rest for the lawyers.
c) I don't think most religions are opposed to science. For example, if it was proven that Jesus never existed, it would completely discredit Christianity. Sure there are plenty of people who will argue this, but constant and vigilant scientific observations keep Christians in a reality check. Remember that religion deals with faith, not proven knowledge (i.e. Jesus must have existed in bodily form, died, and have risen for Christianity to be valid, but the fact that he rose from the dead is an issue of faith, and is not historically provable). However, all too often, especially when the Bible is taken literally word for word, science is viewed as dangerous, and theories like evolution and moral development become heretical, which is just silly, IMHO. For example, I'm currently studying for a psych exam at my Christian university. Though it has a strong theology department (which I am part of), it also has strong engineering, philosophy, biology, pre-med, and psychology programs (including grad and post-grad work). While Christian, these programs are intellectually vigilant which reflects the fact that Christianity embraces science. Religion and science are not opposing forces, but should be thought of as parallels for different aspects of life.

Yes, I basically agree. When Politicians use religion to further their agenda, it is very very rare for them to have entirely benevolent effects in mind.

Edit: As if to prove my point:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6054208.stm

Bush aides 'mocked evangelicals'
James Coomarasamy
BBC News, Washington

US President George W Bush
The Republicans have strong support from evangelical Christians
A new book by a former US official says President Bush's top political advisers privately ridiculed evangelical leaders, while publicly embracing them.

David Kuo says the aides recognised the religious leaders' political use in securing election victories.

The White House has denied the claims by Mr Kuo, a former official in the Faith-Based Initiatives programme.

The Republican party is concerned the allegations may harm its standing in next month's mid-term elections.{snip}

 

[jaydee]

Which "God" and which "church" are you referring to? I think you miss the point of the "Church and State" thing all together.

The whole "church and state" issue is difficult to pin down. History and current events demonstrate that theocracies are bad news for everyone except the theocrat and his cronies. But these tyrannies are invariably perpetrated by big R Religions. I don't think you can or even should attempt to separate government from small r religion, i.e. spirituality or the essence of humanity. Government should be moral as well as legal in nature. Just leave Christ and Mohammed and Zeus and the rest of the pantheon of gods and prophets out of it and we won't have to draw up sides and fight it out.

 

[rockwool]

There is no conspiracy.

Like they would tell you if there was...

 

[BurlyShirley]

The whole "church and state" issue is difficult to pin down. History and current events demonstrate that theocracies are bad news for everyone except the theocrat and his cronies. But these tyrannies are invariably perpetrated by big R Religions. I don't think you can or even should attempt to separate government from small r religion, i.e. spirituality or the essence of humanity. Government should be moral as well as legal in nature. Just leave Christ and Mohammed and Zeus and the rest of the pantheon of gods and prophets out of it and we won't have to draw up sides and fight it out.

Im just pointing out that "In god we trust" isnt exactly an example of a state sponsoring a particular religion. It's pretty vague and open to whoever wants to interpret it, but also takes into account that most Americans believe in some sort of deity. Im not saying I "support" that, but I see it as relatively benign.

 

[DRB]

irrelevant

 

[Westy]

If Burly was a cop his car would read "In Dog We Lust"

 

[BurlyShirley]

If Burly was a cop his car would read "In Dog We Lust"

Cars dont know how to read

 

[DRB]

Cars dont know how to read

Shut up. Herbie could read.

 

[Westy]

Shut up. Herbie could read.

Sou could KITT.

 

[DRB]

Sou could KITT.

And of all the Dukes, I'm sure the General Lee was the only one that could read.

 

[Old Man G Funk]

I don't normally watch TV much any more, I got rid of my cable package nearly a year ago now because everything is just such crap.

So anyway, last night I was tooling around downstairs and my housemate was watching CSI: Miami on TV. I happened to notice as I went past the TV that all the Lab coats in CSI have a little logo on them with "Miami Dade PD: In God We Trust" written on them. Great seperation of church and state there. I am (vaguely ) aware that this show is fictional, so I was just wondering if this was:

a) An attempt by the network to further the republican agenda.
b) A genuine reflection of the sorry state of constitutional ignorance in the US.
c) A dumb thing to have on the uniform of a supposedly scientific investigative unit.
d) Other.

Opinions?

Well, it is the official motto of the US even if it is retarded to have that as a motto. It replaced E Pluribus Unum back during the red scare of the 50s when they also placed "under god" in the pledge.

How about e) There is nothing in the US Constitution about separation of church and state. That concept was in a letter from Jefferson. (As a side, if you read the Declaration of Independence, all human rights are given by the "Creator")

First off, try the first and fourteenth amendments.
Also, the Declaration is not a binding legal document in this country.

c) I don't think most religions are opposed to science.<snip>

That's very sensible. I wish more Xtians thought like you.

 

[Kihaji]

First off, try the first and fourteenth amendments.
Also, the Declaration is not a binding legal document in this country.

First deals with the establishment of a single national religion over others. It has nothing to do with the separation, only the recognition of.

Fourteenth deals with deals with rights of citizens and representation, nothing about church and state there?

Were you perhaps thinking of another countries constitution?

 

[H8R]

I watched a bunch of the Project Runway marathon last night.

Why?

Milky Klum

 

[Old Man G Funk]

First deals with the establishment of a single national religion over others. It has nothing to do with the separation, only the recognition of.

Ugh.
Yes, that's the one, and Jefferson stated that the intent was to build a wall of separation between church and state. The idea is that in order to keep government neutral to religion, it is necessary that government be separate.

Fourteenth deals with deals with rights of citizens and representation, nothing about church and state there?

It extends the religious protections of the individual and protects those rights against intrusion by the individual states.

Were you perhaps thinking of another countries constitution?

No, not at all. The simple fact of the matter is that the issue of separation of church and state is touched upon by the Constitution. I didn't even mention Article VI yet. The only true way for the government to protect the religious rights of all of its citizens is to be completely neutral and separate from religion.