how in the fuck are you equating riding trails with ruining them?Ruining other people's work and fun just to have fun yourself. Sounds about right for today's society.
So....Pinkbike is going to be monetised...
- Thread starter Kurt_80
- Start date
He's maybe the reincarnation of Attila the Hun?
komoot is still just a one time payment for the world map…
trailforks for inspiration, planning with komoot, navigation with the wahoo.
Supporting a commercial webpage that some dumbfucks use to reveal secret trails. If TF would be seriously doing it for the love of the sport, they would have only own local staff mapping the trails and uploading them. The system with approval from local admins works not so great in some areas from what I have heard.
How riding trails can ruin them? Fro example, there are certain trails that locals avoid in the wet. If it is on TF then out of town folks think it is good to go no matter what the conditions. And they for sure do not show up for trail work days. Because entitlement to have fun is what current society is all about. Responsibility...nah, fuck this!
Also, not TF, but Strava: Wholesale shortcutting while chasing KOM has really fucked up a bunch of trails in this area.
While we're at it, if you didn't design/build it, don't alter it. I've had some technical sections just about destroyed by "helpers".
*some* dumbfucks. its not as widespread of an issue as you may think.
those sound like employees. and you're already complaining about how much it costs. you do realize employees expect to be paid right?
*some* areas. overall it seems to work. nobody ever said it's perfect, but there's certainly room for improvement. the trail networks around me it works very well, in part because each trail network has their own admin (there is a large enough riding population in my region to support this, along with active trail associations).
that's quite an assumption.
If you're the kind of person to ride the day after it rains at a trail network you're visiting out of town, then you're probably doing the same thing at your home trails. that just makes you an asshole, and that's not trailforks' fault.
lots of riders don't show up for trail work days at their local trails either. again, not trailforks fault.
people are going to find trails away from home, TF is just another way of finding them. are trail building associations not supposed to publish maps for the trails they build and maintain just to keep out of towners away?
There's an edit button on every trail page, you have the ability to change or remove trail details.
You wouldn't ride a mountain bike at all in the UK if that was your rule.
are you actually retarded? serious question.
my point was that it's not trailforks responsibility for a rider failing to check trail conditions, and that if they're going to ride when it's poor riding conditions, they're going to do so regardless of whether it's local trails or out of town trails.
Are you?
You seriously think folk who've pre-planned a mtb trip to another/new area they've heard/read about, watched on youtube or found via Strava/Trailforks to will cancel their plans if it rains?
you may not be retarded. But you're fucking naive
and his point. if I'm not mistaken. Was that Trailforks. makes the chances of it happening far far greater.
Probably. I am debating with you after all.
That's exactly my point. There have been asshole riders going out on trails in bad conditions long before Strava/trail forks/ etc ever existed. Blaming any of these platforms for it - which is what irider was doing - is pointless and misguided.
No, he was blaming them more directly.
You are totally right. Same as with guns: they are not to blame for so many shootings, it is the assholes using them. No need to restrict them.
I am riding, builing and maintaining trails long enough to have seen changes in the behaviour of users. These days it is close to impossible to keep a secret trail secret, even if it is on private property but not fenced off. Some years back people would stumble across these trails but then maybe tell a friend. Now they upload them to TF, Strava and brag in their Whatsapp group about it. Way more reach than previously, resulting in more users and more conflict. I hope I don't have to tell you where this leads to?
He's offered no evidence to back his claims. And he's also admitted he's never even used TF - which does include a feature where users can update current trail conditions.
FFS!
You either have your head firmly up your own arse or hardly ever even go outside and ride a bike anymore.
i was calling you out on specific issues you were complaining about trailforks - like that people assume if a trail is listed on TF its good no matter the conditions. which is a pretty big assumption, and also nonsense because if you'd actually used the app you would have seen the section marked "trail conditions".
there's plenty of shit people in mountain biking these days that are gonna be assholes and fuck shit up for those of us trying to be responsible about it. i've been riding and building a long time too. these days i barely have time to ride as much as I'd like, yet alone build and do maintenance on a regular, so I figure the least I can do is not ride in bad conditions to fuck things up for the people I know who are building and doing maintenance. honestly my biggest grip about all these new assholes is the bike industry pushing to "grow the sport", but they're only interested in selling more bikes, and far less interested in building more trails and teaching new riders proper trail etiquette, and just some basic fucking respect.
neither, i'm well aware of the issues he's bringing up, that shit happens around here too. but as stated, some of his specific complaints about TF were nonsense because he hasn't actually used it.
Leaving aside @jonKranked and @Gary (or even better, getting them a room) the crowdsourcing of trail mapping leading to heavier trail usage/greater degradation was a given. Most guys down here don't even use Strava/TF but Wikiloc, and after my local trails got added there we have seen a fuckton of new trail users (walkers, runners, bikers, horse riders, bike jorers, you name it).
The pandemic lockdowns had their own impact, but as others said above, there are certain sectors we locals would avoid during the rainy season, while the newcomers would happily engage in a mudfest. Trying to school them about trail sustainability is a lost battle. Same with the city slicker type snobs, coming to the countryside to experience what poor people feel when they have to cook with wood they collected from the local forestry. They don't give a shit about these trails being on a natural reserve.
Before the whole trail mapping explosion three years ago we would run into maybe a couple joeys/snobs a month, and proceeded to educate them on trail etiquette/natural preservation. Now there are too many assholes littering the forest with garbage, destroying the muddy trails and ultimately don't giving a shit about anyone else but themselves.
The pandemic lockdowns had their own impact, but as others said above, there are certain sectors we locals would avoid during the rainy season, while the newcomers would happily engage in a mudfest. Trying to school them about trail sustainability is a lost battle. Same with the city slicker type snobs, coming to the countryside to experience what poor people feel when they have to cook with wood they collected from the local forestry. They don't give a shit about these trails being on a natural reserve.
Before the whole trail mapping explosion three years ago we would run into maybe a couple joeys/snobs a month, and proceeded to educate them on trail etiquette/natural preservation. Now there are too many assholes littering the forest with garbage, destroying the muddy trails and ultimately don't giving a shit about anyone else but themselves.
Random musing based on previous post topics....As I've gotten a bit older, I've begun to appreciate that in MA many of our mtb trails are old repurposed hiking/multiuse trail systems. What they may lack in designed flow or manicured elements, they make up for in durability. No needing to check if it is ok to ride if it rained the night before or if it is monsooning outside. I appreciate that some areas have a mud season but otherwise I'm happy to avoid the drama associated with some of the more delicate trail systems.
.... Also, disappointed to see the R word thrown around.... Heard another 'adult' say it a few nights ago....
.... Also, disappointed to see the R word thrown around.... Heard another 'adult' say it a few nights ago....
'Nam was originally motorcycles...
No there isn't.
The trailforks website has a section with "trail report". and even then it's not obvious at a glance
The App doesn't have it. it has a far vaguer "reports" tab at the bottom where users report conditions generally with one word descriptions.
I just looked at a few of the most popular mtb trails in the UK (that happen to be local to me and I know the current conditions of). Do you want to take a guess at when the most recent update to the report was posted between them all?
3rd Sept 2021! and it says "ideal" - The trail in question is currently soaking wet and blown out from 100s of EWS cunts rinsing it for weeks since that date.
I also have Trailforks integrated into my Garmin 830. and guess what? That doesn't have reports at all.
I'm not a frequent trail forks user but I've used the app and website enough to know that most trails aren't updated all that frequently if at all. Unless you are an active trail builder or land owner you'd need to be an absolute dweeb to spend your time updating trail conditions after every trail you rode.
I've no idea why you're challenging mine or irider's completely valid points but you're talking utter shite!
The trail report in the app isn't exactly buried either. Two taps and scroll down. I just checked some of my local trail networks. Of the 5 I checked, 3 have been updated in the last 7 days. The other two is only 2 weeks. These trails all have active trail builder associations that maintain the trails, and TF as well since that's their primary mapping method. They do a good job of keeping unsanctioned segments off it as well.No there isn't.
The trailforks website has a section with "trail report". and even then it's not obvious at a glance
The App doesn't have it. it has a far vaguer "reports" tab at the bottom where users report conditions generally with one word descriptions.
I just looked at a few of the most popular mtb trails in the UK (that happen to be local to me and I know the current conditions of). Do you want to take a guess at when the most recent update to the report was posted between them all?
3rd Sept 2021! and it says "ideal" - The trail in question is currently soaking wet and blown out from 100s of EWS cunts rinsing it for weeks since that date.
I also have Trailforks integrated into my Garmin 830. and guess what? That doesn't have reports at all.
I'm not a frequent trail forks user but I've used the app and website enough to know that most trails aren't updated all that frequently if at all. Unless you are an active trail builder or land owner you'd need to be an absolute dweeb to spend your time updating trail conditions after every trail you rode.
I've no idea why you're challenging mine or irider's completely valid points but you're talking utter shite!
I have an 830 too, interface for trail forks on it sucks other than for just looking at maps.
There's a bit of causation I agree, but also a fair bit of it is just correlation that these apps showed up at the same time as a bit of a growth boom. I think without the apps/tech some trails would stay more protected but I still think more trail intel is spread by word of mouth and blabbing etc. Heatmaps are another nail in the coffin obviously but not the only reason shit gets wrecked.
i greatly enjoy blocking shortcuts in a most asshole-ish sort of way
re: more users, etc. it's definitely a double edged sword. on one hand, there's more advocacy, more trails, and hopefully eventually more access to things. on the other, the trails i love to ride most are the ones not originally meant as bike trails, and are most often blown out fall line/ridgeline. now they are all getting re-routed/fixed/sustainable. it fucking sucks. all the trails are becoming the same flowy shit, even in the more remote/less traveled parts of le pisgah. people say "oh, it'll get rougher/worn in/more challenging. just give it a few years." i doubt it. i'm of the "clear the downfall, prune the overgrowth, and deal with the erosion" camp. i'll continue to stick to/find the roads less traveled. /end rant
This conversation is amusing to me.
My favorite part, « The trail in question is currently soaking wet and blown out from 100s of EWS cunts rinsing it for weeks since that date. »
My favorite part, « The trail in question is currently soaking wet and blown out from 100s of EWS cunts rinsing it for weeks since that date. »
Same here. A lot of the OG trails get sanitized because "people want it this way" and to make them "safe for beginners". Issue is that we are not starting out with technical terrain to begin with.
Once I had a conversation with trail builders at their local track while they were removing roots and building a berm. When they dropped the above BS on me I pointed out that following that logic it would only be consequential to pave the whole trail. "This isn't mountainbiking" they told me, to which I responded "this flow trail stuff isn't either". I guess I should not ride in that area for a while anymore, but the trails are too smooth anyway.
I'm of two minds about this. I have ridden and understand the Pisgah eroded hiking trail stuff, and enjoyed it, but I think it's overall damaging to the terrain. I have ridden modern swoopy doopy stuff, and while fun in its own way, it ain't something I would build. Around here we have some old school stuff that we build and maintain that's minimalist and some, a lot, of it is narrow, technical, and challenging. Some of it's legal, some ain't.
Strava came before COVID, and notable damage, notably shortcuts, became evident. Covid came, and a bunch of 18" tread widened to four feet. I have also had a local "improve" a section that I built with @Bunnista, and they totally fucked a section that I could clear one time in ten.
I've been a long time admin for Whistler region, uploaded a lot of trails and done lots of editing. If you have admins who know what's up and can keep a handle on things, it's easy to keep a lot of stuff hidden, and we do, pretty much anything that isn't historically sanctioned you won't see on there. They do have some workarounds if you're really keen to figure it out, as mentioned above, but overall for the average user a lot of the unsanctioned stuff is not promoted here (obvs depends on your local situation)...this is pretty common situation here in the Sea to Sky/Lwr mainland as the clubs all do admin on there. Also there is a wet weather friendly check mark so people can look at wet weather suitable trails, sure some riders don't GAF regardless, but that tool is there too. For trails that are particularly susceptible to wet weather impacts, we just add that info to the trail description and ask people to be more courteous. Doesn't always work, but works for most respectful users.
Even as an admin, I bought the pro subscription because it's actually really useful app as a trail user who visits a lot of other places. Is it perfect? No, but at least it gives local control to the associations and land managers to make those decisions as opposed to Strava which is a free for all shit show. One of the biggest problems overall, imo, is that there are just so many new people to the sport in the past 5-10 years who have no clue about how much work it's taken for a lot of places to get to this point, they don't understand the nuances with unsanctioned trails, loamers, vs sanctioned stuff, they don't understand land ownership issues, and it's just really hard to educate people who've learned in bike parks that there are some trails they just shouldn't ride at certain times and shouldn't be sprayed about all over the internet and social media.
Even as an admin, I bought the pro subscription because it's actually really useful app as a trail user who visits a lot of other places. Is it perfect? No, but at least it gives local control to the associations and land managers to make those decisions as opposed to Strava which is a free for all shit show. One of the biggest problems overall, imo, is that there are just so many new people to the sport in the past 5-10 years who have no clue about how much work it's taken for a lot of places to get to this point, they don't understand the nuances with unsanctioned trails, loamers, vs sanctioned stuff, they don't understand land ownership issues, and it's just really hard to educate people who've learned in bike parks that there are some trails they just shouldn't ride at certain times and shouldn't be sprayed about all over the internet and social media.
for a dose of good news, the local "mountain" adjacent to the park where i usually dig, and which has now been through two generations of pirate trails, was recently acquired by a local land preservation group. it's only about 1300', but is the only thing like it near the city. we have been working for years through official channels to make this happen. it will now be leased back to the park and we will hire a good trailbuilding company to do it right.
I trust that you'll try to keep bermkake and the like to a minimum.
Either way, sounds sweet!
Well said. It is for sure a great tool, for various uses and user groups.
But like any tool, it can be misused and do more harm than good. iRider needs to take the reigns and get his area under control if it's such a problem.
here's a clip of one of the trails the younger cats have been digging. rider is a former sponsored bmx/street rider who turned to mtb a few years ago and is fast as hell.
www.instagram.com
Phil Jones on Instagram: "@greg_kelly16 and I have been sweating our asses the past couple months working at our local spot trying to build rad stuff for us and everyone in our MTB circle. If you know ya know. Introducing “Pickle Rick”."
131 likes, 22 comments - filthyphilmtb on August 18, 2021: "@greg_kelly16 and I have been sweating our asses the past couple months working at our local spot trying to build rad stuff for us and ev..."
www.instagram.com
Yeah. Back in the "good old days" no one ever did anything wrong. Everything was perfect and you were perfectly happy with everything in your life.Ruining other people's work and fun just to have fun yourself. Sounds about right for today's society.
Oh wait...trails sucked, bikes sucked, there were hardly any trails (legal or illegal), and almost no one did trail maintenance.
I've definitely not ridden trails because it was wet despite traveling huge distances. So yes, tons of people are respectful. In fact, the vast majority of people MUST BE otherwise trails wouldn't be rideable.
People always seem to think that trails are on the verge of completely falling apart and becoming un-rideable. Despite riding almost every legal and illegal downhill trail of note between LA and just south of Seattle, I've almost NEVER ridden a trail that I thought "Gee this trail is in awful shape because too many people have ridden it in the wet". I mean I live in California, where the dirt sucks, and we have almost nothing but sketchy fall line trails, and we oscillate between desert and monsoon season and the majority of trails hold up fine with minimal maintenance despite a MASSIVE amount of users.
(P.S. I actually do some trail maintenance on my local, illegal DH trails)
Bark busters!
Yeah, the country with very little clay content in the soils, apparently. Here this isn’t really an issue, enough moisture, and the trails are absolutely unrideable, no matter how far you travelled.