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So what happens if our debts are ever called in?

Jr_Bullit

I'm sooo teenie weenie!!!
Sep 8, 2001
2,028
1
North of Oz
Greenspan says "don't be complacent"....but what happens if other nations who have been loaning us money to cover our debts, decide it's time we pay up?

Greenspan Says U.S. Deficits Pose a Risk
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

Published: November 19, 2004

Filed at 1:36 p.m. ET

WASHINGTON (AP) --The persistence of bloated U.S. trade deficits over time can pose a risk to the U.S. economy, which thus far has proven resilient, Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan warned Friday. Policy-makers must not get lulled into a sense of complacency, he said.

The broadest measure of trade, called the current account deficit, swelled to an all-time high of $166.2 billion in the second quarter of this year, the most recent period for which this information is available.

``Current account imbalances, per se, need not be a problem, but cumulative deficits ... raise more complex issues,'' Greenspan said in speech in Frankfurt, Germany. A copy of his remarks was distributed in Washington.

So far, foreigners are willing to lend the United States money to finance the current account imbalances, Greenspan pointed out. The worry, however, is that at some point foreigners might suddenly lose interest in holding dollar-denominated investments. That could cause foreigners to unload investments in U.S. stocks and bonds, sending their prices plunging and interest rates soaring.

The sliding value of the U.S. dollar has made some private economists more concerned about this potential risk.

``It seems persuasive that, given the size of the U.S. current account deficit, a diminished appetite for adding to dollar balances must occur at some point,'' Greenspan said. ``But when, through what channels and from what level of the dollar? Regrettably, no answer to those questions is convincing,'' he said.

On Wall Street, stocks fell after Greenspan's warning. The Dow Jones industrials were off 106 points in morning trading.

The U.S. dollar has been persistently weak against the euro -- the currency used by 12 European countries. The dollar had dropped to a new record low against the euro on Thursday before bouncing back. The dollar fell again after Greenspan's speech.

The dollar's slide has been good for U.S. manufacturers because it makes their goods less expensive in foreign markets. But the corresponding rise of the euro makes European goods more expensive in foreign markets.

Greenspan, in his speech, did not specifically discuss the value of the dollar. Although he said that forecasting exchange rates ``has a success rate no better than that of forecasting the outcome of a coin toss.''

In his speech, Greenspan also didn't discuss the future course of interest rate policy in the United States.

Wanting to keep inflation from becoming a danger to the economy, Fed policy-makers last week boosted short-term interest rates for a fourth time this year. The action left a key rate, called the federal funds rate, at 2 percent. The funds rate is the Fed primary tool for influencing economic activity.

With recent signs that inflation is heating up again after a long cool spell, economists believe the chances are increasing that the Fed will raise rates again at its last meeting of the year on Dec. 14.

President Bush says the best ways to handle the yawning trade deficits is to get other countries to remove trading barriers and open their markets to U.S. companies. Democrats, including John Kerry, Bush's former rival for the presidency, have blamed Bush's free-trade policies for the loss of U.S. jobs.

Greenspan said that although there's been evidence that ``among developed countries, current account deficits, even large ones, have been diffused without significant consequences, we cannot become complacent.''

Reducing the U.S. federal budget deficit, Greenspan said, would be an important action to boost U.S. savings. Continued flexibility in the U.S. economy also has been important in the economy's ability to absorb and rebound from economic shocks, he said.

In a question and answer period after his speech, Greenspan said central bank intervention in currency markets to support the dollar -- such as through buying dollars to drive up its exchange rate -- could have only a limited and short-term effect.

``Obviously we have looked at the issue of the impact of monetary authority intervention in the dollar for purposes of sustaining exchange rates quite closely, and our interest is obviously focused on its impact on exchange rates and interest rates,'' Greenspan said. ``Our general conclusion is that the impact has been moderate, not especially large, but clearly visible.''

Treasury Secretary John Snow, in comments earlier this week, appeared to rule out intervention, saying markets must set exchange rates. But private economists have said that other countries might be interested in taking action.
 

Toshi

butthole powerwashing evangelist
Oct 23, 2001
40,228
9,113
that's when the bubble truly bursts. perhaps we will see it during our lifetime...
 

BurlyShirley

Rex Grossman Will Rise Again
Jul 4, 2002
19,180
17
TN
Bush will just call the mints and ask them to print up an extra $166 Billion. I dont see what the big deal is.
 

Toshi

butthole powerwashing evangelist
Oct 23, 2001
40,228
9,113
BurlyShirley said:
Bush will just call the mints and ask them to print up an extra $166 Billion. I dont see what the big deal is.
are you serious?
 

-BB-

I broke all the rules, but somehow still became mo
Sep 6, 2001
4,254
28
Livin it up in the O.C.
Jr_Bullit said:
Greenspan says "don't be complacent"....but what happens if other nations who have been loaning us money to cover our debts, decide it's time we pay up?
.
We invade them, DUH!!!
 

Jr_Bullit

I'm sooo teenie weenie!!!
Sep 8, 2001
2,028
1
North of Oz
You know...there was a time when posting things here was fun ...lately I feel like its wasting braincells and that the N8/BS team are conspiring to run out the people who think through their responses....

Disagreements are great - but thoughtless drone-like remarks are rather...well...dull
 

BurlyShirley

Rex Grossman Will Rise Again
Jul 4, 2002
19,180
17
TN
Toshi said:
are you serious?
:rolleyes:

Here's my actual plan. Raise the minimum wage in this country to about $160 Billion, wait til inflation catches up, then pay off the countries and it will cost us relatively nothing.
 

BurlyShirley

Rex Grossman Will Rise Again
Jul 4, 2002
19,180
17
TN
Jr_Bullit said:
You know...there was a time when posting things here was fun ...lately I feel like its wasting braincells and that the N8/BS team are conspiring to run out the people who think through their responses....

Disagreements are great - but thoughtless drone-like remarks are rather...well...dull
Oh, for crying out loud. I was making fun of Bush saying that he would do something stupid. Chrissakes. You posted a news story that was pretty strait forward. What are we supposed to do? Argue with Greenspan on this topic?
 

Jr_Bullit

I'm sooo teenie weenie!!!
Sep 8, 2001
2,028
1
North of Oz
Answer the question :) - I'm basically an economic dunce (the only class I got a C in college in), so I was posting an honest question - what "WOULD" happen should our debt be called in? What's the liklihood of that? Why is it "OK" for a government to be so heavily in debt if we are unable to pay that debt off when called in? I'm assuming these loans have interest compounding on them, how long do we have while we're in deferrment? Till we end our war? Till we have another president in office to blame for our financial misfourtunes?

I do know this much about the local level, the Canadian dollar has been creeping up higher against the US - and for the first time it makes more sense for me to buy my weekly allotment of gas across the border.
 

DRB

unemployed bum
Oct 24, 2002
15,242
0
Watchin' you. Writing it all down.
Jr_Bullit said:
Answer the question :) - I'm basically an economic dunce (the only class I got a C in college in), so I was posting an honest question - what "WOULD" happen should our debt be called in? What's the liklihood of that? Why is it "OK" for a government to be so heavily in debt if we are unable to pay that debt off when called in? I'm assuming these loans have interest compounding on them, how long do we have while we're in deferrment? Till we end our war? Till we have another president in office to blame for our financial misfourtunes?

I do know this much about the local level, the Canadian dollar has been creeping up higher against the US - and for the first time it makes more sense for me to buy my weekly allotment of gas across the border.
No one is going to call in the US debt as we do pay with interest so its making money for folks. The money isn't owed to one single person, country, bank or company. If you have a savings bond you own part of the US debt. The majority of US debt is in the form of treasury instruments that have redemption periods when the face value of the instrument is due. Interest is paid at a rate (called the coupon) typically semi-annually.

Say for example you buy a treasury bond with a face value of $1000, a coupon of 8%, and a maturity of ten years. This means you'll receive a total of $80 ($1000*8%) of interest per year for the next 10 years. Actually, because most bonds pay interest semi-annually, you'll receive two payments of $40 a year for ten years. When the bond matures after a decade you'll get your $1000 back.

When that $1000 is paid, another $1000 is sold to someone else. The debt basically keeps rotating.

On the redemption (maturity) date, bonds are usually redeemed at "par", meaning the government pays back exactly the face value of the bond. Most bonds also allow the bond issuer to redeem the bonds at any time before the redemption date, usually at par but sometimes at a higher price. This is known as "calling" the bonds and frequently happens when interest rates fall, because the government can sell new bonds at a lower interest rate and pay off the older, more expensive bonds with the proceeds of the new sale. By doing so the government may be able to lower their cost of funds considerably.

The key here is that the bonds are not callable by the buyer but by the seller the US government in this case.

The problem comes when the value of the dollar weakens to the point that the investment is no longer attractive. However, the US is as reliable as water running down hill when it comes to paying. Which makes it an ideal place for safe money.

The other part of this is that "calling" the US debt for payment wouldn't be like coming to get your car if you failed to pay. There isn't a collection agency big enough to collect that debt. But again the US isn't going to mess around and not pay the debt it owes.
 

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,840
1
Orange County, CA
The bigger issue is when is Asia going to stop financing our huge current account deficit? That's when things are going to get crappy...
 

DRB

unemployed bum
Oct 24, 2002
15,242
0
Watchin' you. Writing it all down.
Silver said:
The bigger issue is when is Asia going to stop financing our huge current account deficit? That's when things are going to get crappy...
There is a certain danger to this. But in the short and medium term it is unlikely they will stop for two reason. First, the US government is one of the best investments in terms of ROI and safety. Second, they have chosen to link their currencies to the dollar at undervalued rates, supported by heavy purchases of dollar reserves. Asian countries want to keep their exports cheap to support rapid growth and are in consequence happy to keep acquiring dollars indefinitely. In turn, by buying Treasury bonds, they reduce interest rates, which supports spending and ensures that American consumers keep buying Asian goods.

The danger is mainly in terms of inflation. As the inflationary costs of maintaining their link to the dollar grow, Asian countries may shift to more flexible regimes. But that is going to be a gradual shift not a sudden movement.
 

DRB

unemployed bum
Oct 24, 2002
15,242
0
Watchin' you. Writing it all down.
Silver said:
Unless GW finally pisses off the rest of the world so much that stuff starts moving to Euros...like oil.
Again unlikely as they would be courting their own economic ruin. The nature of the global economy makes it impossible to punish the big players (the US, China and the EU) without doing major damage to their own economy. Don't let your wishful thinking of ways for GWB to fail cloud your view world economics.
 

JerseyDave

monkey wrestler
Apr 9, 2002
132
0
Stowe, VT
What happens when forign countries lose faith in america being able to pay back that loan. Say when the baby boomers all start to look to collect on years of social security and our allready massive (8+ trilloin now) debt grows many times over....either that or we will just not pay up as a fed. gov.
 

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,840
1
Orange County, CA
DRB said:
Again unlikely as they would be courting their own economic ruin. The nature of the global economy makes it impossible to punish the big players (the US, China and the EU) without doing major damage to their own economy. Don't let your wishful thinking of ways for GWB to fail cloud your view world economics.
I don't need to make up ways for him to fail, he's allready exceeded my wildest dreams.

Having said that, there were some murmurs a few months ago about some countries starting to use the Euro for oil purchases instead of the dollar. That kind of thing isn't great news, and if it comes down to it, I'm sure that Russia would be more than happy to push for that.

Dollar slides even more...makes those Asian exports look worse to us...

I agree nothing is going to happen overnight, but there is one thing that I'm pretty sure of that is the side effect of globalization, and that is that China isn't going to have a per capita income of 30k...which means that the US standard of living really only has one way to go in the next 50 years (which is natural of course, there is only one way to go when you're on top...)

Edit: Unless of course you plan to sustain unsustainable levels of consumption by plunder, which is quite likely no matter who happens to be in charge.
 

DRB

unemployed bum
Oct 24, 2002
15,242
0
Watchin' you. Writing it all down.
Silver said:
I don't need to make up ways for him to fail, he's allready exceeded my wildest dreams.

Having said that, there were some murmurs a few months ago about some countries starting to use the Euro for oil purchases instead of the dollar. That kind of thing isn't great news, and if it comes down to it, I'm sure that Russia would be more than happy to push for that.
Russia would certainly benefit in the short term as it wouldn't see their oil revenues devalued.

Venezeula as done it on numerous occassions in selling of oil to those in Euro Zone. However, there would be additional costs related to the risks. Additionally, both buyers and sellers would be open to additional currency hedging costs if the Euro were introduced alongside the dollar and there would be internal arbitrage between the two billing currencies that would potentially disrupt the mechanism.

Then there is the matter of the UK and Norway, the largest oil producers in Europe. The UK has not adopted the Euro and Norway has not even joined the EU. Until these two major players in North Sea oil production are integrated into the Euro zone it would appear unlikely that even the international crude oil benchmark, Brent, would be re-denominated into Euros.

Additionally do you think that the Euro would remain so strong if the oil currency was changed? One of OPECs biggest concerns voiced by the head of their market analysis division (the speech is on my desk and I can't remember is name) was would the Euro be able to weather the storm that being the main oil currency would bring to it.

Silver said:
Dollar slides even more...makes those Asian exports look worse to us...
But the flip side is that it makes US exports more attractive to the world. That brings foreign investment not necessarily into the US government but into the US economy nonetheless. The US government would then be forced into a situation where higher taxes would be necessary but either way they would get it.