[patineto]

Please I want to hear Inteligent arguments, scientific almost if you can, not this black Voddo Magic crap or just the "that is so wrong" or the "no F^^king way i will ride a bike like that.."

so far i'm being riding like this for about 4 months on this fork but i also have 3 other DC forks(888, Super-T and a Shiver DC) set up the same way with out even ones, hitting the bottom of the triple clamp even ussing the biggest tyres... but i'm also interested to find out possible safety risk and things i'm may not be aware off..

So far I'm being working on bikes for the last 20 years with pretty much a spottless record, many times doing inovative stuff that take a long time to become popular, oviuslly i don't do this kind of things in other person bike but only on my own until i'm sure is totally and absolutlly safe..

So if you have something smart and with some comun sense let me (us) know, but if you are going to go into a "witch hunt" becuase you are just "scare of the mirrors" Please go somewere else, I don't have the time or the paccience for pointless arguments .

just remeneber this,,,
For years and years people keep telling this can not be done and I'm being riding in the dirt and the street for about 7 years and 120,000 Milles..

for sure if i was waiting for people aproval, half my projects will never get done and i'm sure is the same to many others that push the limits of daylly life..

 

[kidwoo]

Man you really do push the limits.

The pitch fork proves it.

I guess there's nothing wrong with it unless for some reason you don't like hitting your arms on you top crowns.

 

[seismic]

But if it is because you want it low, - then why the spacers under the stem ?? If you put the upper crown where you have the spacers, then you wouldnt need the spacers and then run the stem on top of the upper crown.....what is the advantage to run it like this?

 

[Hack]

You should put some bar ends on the seat post and you'll be set

 

[DHRracer]

A few things,Is it safe to bolt the lower crown that low?There is a lot there to rack knees on.But I just don't see the point especially with all the long travel single crowns.If it just for the sake of doing something different congrats.

 

[patineto]

Man you really do push the limits.

The pitch fork proves it.

That part i fix a minute ago..

I guess there's nothing wrong with it unless for some reason you don't like hitting your arms on you top crowns.

that is a good argument,, but makes me think maybe i'm not riding my bikes fast enogh since i'm not even close to touch the clamps with my Knees or any other parts of my body

thanks for the advice..

 

[patineto]

But if it is because you want it low, - then why the spacers under the stem ?? If you put the upper crown where you have the spacers, then you wouldnt need the spacers and then run the stem on top of the upper crown.....what is the advantage to run it like this?

when i set the bike like that i was just gestimating were the bars need to be, the second set of pictures are from my first test ride and everything when extremlly well, hopefully tomorrow will be less wet and i can ride the bike on the trail and really see were the bars need to be,, who knows maybe i put them over the clamp, maybe i drop them even lower...

actually i got to this point when i try to mount a Scott steering damper on my M-Pire were i need a flat surface to make the mount., at the moment the set up is not mount since niw i'm running a 888 and i need to find some flat crowwns with a long steer tube, so i can mount the damper again

but here is a picture of the mount for the frame..

for now i'm just playing around and wondering about diferent alteratives, in fact i need to confess sometimes i have more more fun doing it than riding the bikes..

 

[patineto]

A few things,Is it safe to bolt the lower crown that low?

well is not like i'm going over the recomended limit or anything, i also test for clearance even with the biggest tyres i have (2.7) and the tyre did not touch the lower crown at all (still 3/4" clearance).

There is a lot there to rack knees on.But I just don't see the point especially with all the long travel single crowns.If it just for the sake of doing something different congrats.

remenber how people complain about upside down forks being kind of flexy because the lack of a fork brace, specially the Shivers..!?!?! well with this sistem the forks flex much less (for now empirical data but i guess I can measure)

also if you take in to account the farder apart two mounting points are the more rigid the structure become, this is pretty much the ultimate way in terms of rigidity, also the stem is held from top and bottom,,, what else you want....!?!?

but you are right, i can also go to a single crown fork and maybe i will soon, i do have 13 bikes and i keep changing parts (including forks) from one to another one, just to test things and have fun, so i don't want to be cutting steering columns if i don't need to, so i leave them as long as possible, since i never know if i will be getting a frame with a really long headtube (exept for the Nicolai with the 1 1/2" all the other run on king headsets so i can swap forks in almost seconds) for now this was the only fork doing nothing (since i install the 888 on the Nicolai) so i install it on the balfa.

for the Nicolai I'm going to run this sistem for SuRe, so i have a clean platform to install my Scott's steering damper on it, but i'm still waitng to get some extra money to buy the flat crowns...(Feeding new componenets to 13 bikes,,actually 14 gets kind of expensive if you ask me)

the arguments you give me are sound so I thank for theme and i will consider them, but they are far from the alarming ones i see on mark's tread about "take it of the bike right away before explotes right in your face" kind of FrAnTiC...

 

[patineto]

You should put some bar ends on the seat post and you'll be set

I don't even understand this one,,,
barends on the seatpost..!?!?

actually i don't really like barends even on the handlebars but that is a whole other history..

 

[Jm_]

Different forks will have different length uppers, but chances are the material near where the crown has to clamp is adaquate. If you try and clamp it somewhere else there are no guarentees. There's this thing called "butting", which means that installing the crown in some places it's not meant to go could be dangerous.

This doesn't necessarily mean the top crown either, it could be the lower crown, because you'll have to space it lower to be able to cover the entire distance.

And lastly, I don't believe that you ran a shiver that way. There's not enough length on the uppers to account for a crown, steerer tube, STEM spacers, and then another crown. If you did run a shiver that way, I'd imagine you have less than the ~195mm of required clearance from crown to tire.

 

[patineto]

Different forks will have different length uppers, but chances are the material near where the crown has to clamp is adaquate. If you try and clamp it somewhere else there are no guarentees. There's this thing called "butting", which means that installing the crown in some places it's not meant to go could be dangerous.

This doesn't necessarily mean the top crown either, it could be the lower crown, because you'll have to space it lower to be able to cover the entire distance.

I did check the wall thickness of the fork tube, to make sure the area i was clamping was thick enogh so they will not get bend.. believe me you don't get to be as old as me making mistakes like those..

And lastly, I don't believe that you ran a shiver that way. There's not enough length on the uppers to account for a crown, steerer tube, STEM spacers, and then another crown. If you did run a shiver that way, I'd imagine you have less than the ~195mm of required clearance from crown to tire.

well I don't have the shivers anymore since i trade them for the 888 and sadlly i don't have any fotos of the set up, but maybe i can ask my friend Mark to borrow them just to prove a point..

I did install the stem in between the crowns on the shiver but with only a small spacer (1/4") also helps that the Nicolai is set up with a "No Heigh" (flush whatever you call it) E-13 headset generating a very low headtube measurement,
i also move the lower crown as low as possible,, maybe a little lower than the recomended 195mm (I did not have the manual and i did not even check, MeBad.
and for sure i have sufficient drop on the "gulfwing" shape of the top crown to clamp the forks at the top.. yes not much but sufficient overlap.

I will contact Mark right away and get on the case just to have a proof, also you can ask Corwin & mark (other mark) that work at Hank & frank in berkeley since i'm pretty sure they were witness of all my experiments including the shiver set up,, Corwin also end up with the silver Super-t's i have on the first picture, when i got my shivers for the first time,,(so i don't have them anymore to demostrate my point,,(what can i say, i'm not that rich to keep 3-4 double crown forks just because).

For now here some pictures of some of the old forks i mount on the bike so you can see how small the headstack really is.
this was the first fork a 2003 Super-T's that in fact i end up running with the stem in between the crowns and the Scott's steering damper on the top of the upper clamp (i'm certain you can see the space is there on the steer tube and the fork tubes and also in the shape of the top clamp) and this fork does not even have movable lower clamps (criogenically "bonded") like the Shiver features.

the same exact White brothers fork,, just look at how many spacers i need to use on that one (about 10mm more)

also the stem is thicker (taller clamp) than the Thomson i use with the Shivers, but i don't even use the 25.4 bar anymore, so the thomson is gone. to a more cross country bike.

Kind of funny and sad for how much i like my Nicolai and work on it, I only have seven pictures of her and none of them show what i need to express at the moment or the scott's damper and the two other forks(2002Shiver Dc and 888) that i install on the bike..

 

[COmtbiker12]

Different forks will have different length uppers, but chances are the material near where the crown has to clamp is adaquate. If you try and clamp it somewhere else there are no guarentees. There's this thing called "butting", which means that installing the crown in some places it's not meant to go could be dangerous.

This doesn't necessarily mean the top crown either, it could be the lower crown, because you'll have to space it lower to be able to cover the entire distance.

And lastly, I don't believe that you ran a shiver that way. There's not enough length on the uppers to account for a crown, steerer tube, STEM spacers, and then another crown. If you did run a shiver that way, I'd imagine you have less than the ~195mm of required clearance from crown to tire.

Same with a 888, since you'd basically be eating into the provided travel by moving the crowns down enough to leave the spacing for the crown to mount so much higher on the steerer tube. Even with a drop crown (and I may be wrong) I don't think there will be adequate 'drop' in it that will allow the system to work with full travel. Setting it up otherwise would be dangerous.

Have you taken apart the fork and made sure that the distance you have the lower crown at is safe? I know that you say that you haven't had issues yet but I don't know if you're saying that you haven't completely bottomed the suspension or if when it is fully bottomed it is clear. If it is clear then that's cool, but otherwise who knows, maybe you'll take a drop a bit nose heavy and bottom it out then what? I've seen some pretty bad crashes from setups like that that included completely taco'd wheels and very hard landings head first.

 

[Duzitall]

You have very nice bikes with very...umm..different set ups. Be careful when you don't heed the manufacturers instructions.

 

[motomike]

Good job Patineto. Stay strong man, don't let em get you down.

 

[NORTON]

That Balfa is a sweet looking bike, Ive never seen one in person but thye look like fun! Anyway I'm no engineer but the first thing that came to mind when I saw these pics was- Forks are a lever that try to rip the head tube off your bike; that's why you can't put a Shiver on a carbon XC race frame. With your crowns up high, you just added another couple inches to the input end of the lever. If I'm thinking right, the torque you can put on that area of the frame increased by quite a bit. Imagine the steer tube, stem, fork uppers etc were another 3 feet or so taller than they are- you could probably rip the headtube off just with your bare strength with a lever that long. Does this make sense? Am I understanding wrong?

Who knows if that would make a difference in the real world tho. You'd think it would have broken by now if it was weak.

 

[patineto]

That Balfa is a sweet looking bike, Ive never seen one in person but thye look like fun! Anyway I'm no engineer but the first thing that came to mind when I saw these pics was- Forks are a lever that try to rip the head tube off your bike; that's why you can't put a Shiver on a carbon XC race frame. With your crowns up high, you just added another couple inches to the input end of the lever. If I'm thinking right, the torque you can put on that area of the frame increased by quite a bit. Imagine the steer tube, stem, fork uppers etc were another 3 feet or so taller than they are- you could probably rip the headtube off just with your bare strength with a lever that long. Does this make sense? Am I understanding wrong?

Who knows if that would make a difference in the real world tho. You'd think it would have broken by now if it was weak.

Thanks Now that is a Exelent argument, i'm going to ask my fancy aerospace engeniers friends about this and see what they think..

something like this will make me reconsider my set up..

i get back to you soon about this..

oh if you are ever around berkeley (near san francisco) just bring your shoes , gloves and helmet, since i have a whole stable of bikes you can ride, including a nice tandem a bunch of single speeds and corss country bikes plus two balfas and hopefully soon two Nicolai's .

 

[patineto]

Good job Patineto. Stay strong man, don't let em get you down.

You Know Mike my whole freaking Life i'm being hearing this kind of concers and NOcanDo attitude, a few of them very wise but most of them just pure "pier pressure" and overall mental blindness, so maybe i get a little to sensitive and maybe i'm even f66king Up something, but i'm also very careful with what i'm doing so ussually nothing really bad happends...

for example I remenber a few years back when I decide to make my new "Dirt bike" out of a BMW street bike , then everybody was telling me I was freaking crazy (I acept that I'm and I'm proud of it too) and the little "Golem" end up being far more versatil, fast, reliable and strong than any other Big a^^ enduro and all this made out of recycle motorcylce, bicycle and industrial parts and material with a dremel, a cordless drill, a small grinder and a S^^t load of sweat and perseverance... .

the bike start as one of this,,2001 R1100S. (I got the bike crash for really cheap)

and end up becoming this

jumping as high as any other 550 pound bike ever did.

anyway at this time of my life i only believe in the laws of fisic since the antropological part of the human culture is so flaw in temrs of the "groupiness" effect, were just a few still have "Comun sense , the least comun of the senses".

 

[thaflyinfatman]

That Balfa is a sweet looking bike, Ive never seen one in person but thye look like fun! Anyway I'm no engineer but the first thing that came to mind when I saw these pics was- Forks are a lever that try to rip the head tube off your bike; that's why you can't put a Shiver on a carbon XC race frame. With your crowns up high, you just added another couple inches to the input end of the lever. If I'm thinking right, the torque you can put on that area of the frame increased by quite a bit. Imagine the steer tube, stem, fork uppers etc were another 3 feet or so taller than they are- you could probably rip the headtube off just with your bare strength with a lever that long. Does this make sense? Am I understanding wrong?

Who knows if that would make a difference in the real world tho. You'd think it would have broken by now if it was weak.

Yeah you are understanding wrong. The couple moment exerted on the HEADTUBE (for a given/fixed headtube length) is a function of the distance from the axle to the top headset cup. As you can imagine, running the fork up that high relative to the headtube actually shortens the distance from axle to upper headset cup, thus reducing the load on the headtube. Having such widely spaced crowns means that the load on each crown is reduced too. However, if the crowns are placed in a region of the tube that is thinner than the area intended to be clamped, you greatly increase the risk of damaging the tube.

 

[zedro]

nothing wrong (like the other smarty pantses have noted), especially since the upper crown has much less influence in the whole stress/stiffness thing anyways. But of course it does look a bit funny, like having huge exposed stanchion....oh well....

 

[Brian HCM#1]

How much clearance do you have between the tire and lower crown? That fork has the 7" travel kit installed.

 

[lonewolfe]

Hey, the guy's from Berkeley! What do you expect. Those Berkeley folks will do anything to be non-conformists! They feel it is their right and duty to do so!!!!!

 

[scurban]

Out of all things to take a personal stance on, why would you choose this? Did it not work with the crown under the stem? Does your setup have any new benefits that we should be aware of.?

 

[Kntr]

Your bars would be just as low if you mounted it without the stem and used a integrated stem. I just dont see the point except to be different.

 

[mobius]

If you want it low run your crown slammed to the headtube and your stem upside down with a 1" or less riser bar.

 

[patineto]

Yeah you are understanding wrong. The couple moment exerted on the HEADTUBE (for a given/fixed headtube length) is a function of the distance from the axle to the top headset cup. As you can imagine, running the fork up that high relative to the headtube actually shortens the distance from axle to upper headset cup, thus reducing the load on the headtube. Having such widely spaced crowns means that the load on each crown is reduced too.

Funny I got pretty much the same answer from my friend paul.

thanks for the exelent explanation mister thaflyinfatman

However, if the crowns are placed in a region of the tube that is thinner than the area intended to be clamped, you greatly increase the risk of damaging the tube.

At least in the case of the WB fork, the wall thickness of the fork tubes is the same, actually a little thicker if you count the materials for the treads, in fact i took on of the caps apart last night (sad thing to be doing in new years) to make sure the tread were not deform and the cap came out with out any trouble at all, on the shiver, 888 and Super -T i have no idea of the wall thickness variation since i never got the chance to check.

thanks again for your wise and proper input...

actually since you know how of fisics is so deep, what do you think about the setup...!?!?
specially about my empirial claims of less fork flex do to the extended distances in between the crowns...??

 

[Transfer]

I think the seatpost needs to be higher. How can you get an efficient pedal stroke with it so low?

 

[patineto]

nothing wrong (like the other smarty pantses have noted), especially since the upper crown has much less influence in the whole stress/stiffness thing anyways.

I absolutlly agree.

Just take a look
this is one of the Ohlins fork you may find of a world cup GP racer bike and cost more than two liter street bikes, just look at the enfasis place on the lower crown and how tall it is in comparation to the upper clamp,, one thing you can be sure this guys are not leaving any material that does not need to be there.

if you want it,, I can get you one (they are not for sale to the General public) but i have some Great contacts.

Actually just for fun take a look at this link about one of the collest concept bikes Ever the sachs beast (Click on the slide show link)

Is that one of the collest Triple clamps,,, or what.... !?!?
actually that whole bike is awesome if you ask me

But of course it does look a bit funny, like having huge exposed stanchion....oh well....

Actually if anything i find it kind of sexy, but then again my sense of style is a little strange.

Oh yeah is kind of strange, but who cares..

 

[-Steve-]

If you want it low run your crown slammed to the headtube and your stem upside down with a 1" or less riser bar.

No, that way you just get a setup where the bar is lower, but if you do it this way, how patineto did, you make the whole front end of the rig lower, so thus you get a steeper HA and a lower BB. Just like installing a lower hub to crown height fork. This way you can even try out really different head angles and BB heights with the same frame just by playing with spacers and mounting crown on diff places. Nice idea just a bit strange looking.

 

[patineto]

I think the seatpost needs to be higher. How can you get an efficient pedal stroke with it so low?

I know you are pulling my chain,,,the seat post is a high as it need to be to give me the 92,6% rathio of leg stroke require for optimal pedaling efficiency

 

[patineto]

No, that way you just get a setup where the bar is lower, but if you do it this way, how patineto did, you make the whole front end of the rig lower, so thus you get a steeper HA and a lower BB. Just like installing a lower hub to crown height fork. This way you can even try out really different head angles and BB heights with the same frame just by playing with spacers and mounting crown on diff places. Nice idea just a bit strange looking.

Thanks Steve for the support and the Open mindness...

 

[OGRipper]

Well other than increased exposure to your teeth, as long as you are clamping in ok spots and have tire clearance I don't think there is anything "wrong", but with all those spacers I don't really see the point except to be different.

 

[patineto]

Well other than increased exposure to your teeth, as long as you are clamping in ok spots and have tire clearance I don't think there is anything "wrong", but with all those spacers I don't really see the point except to be different.

Maybe I can Install a "Airbag" on the top of the clamps....:mumble:
Actually I much rather Hit the flat surface of the clamps (less protruding things) than the "Casttle towers" form by the stem and the fork legs sticking out on a more convensional installation,,, again just my humble opinion and prerogative..

 

[OGRipper]

Maybe I can Install a "Airbag" on the top of the clamps....:mumble:

Hahahah, actually I was thinking an aero bar would bolt on rather easily.

Seriously I like your spirit and all, but I still get this weird feeling when I look at that, kind of like the feeling I get when I see someone riding around with their fork backwards...

 

[patineto]

Hahahah, actually I was thinking an aero bar would bolt on rather easily.

Actually I was think more like One of this.

or maybe something like this

but i just don't have the need for GPS's or Satelite radios on a freaking Bicycle..

Or How about a flower Pot like on the VW Bug...!?!?!?

or taking seriuslly how about a platform to mount the instrument of a "Suspension data aquisition" sistem

Seriously I like your spirit and all, but I still get this weird feeling when I look at that, kind of like the feeling I get when I see someone riding around with their fork backwards...

Dude i hear you loud and clear, It Just look WrOnG....

but in this case is only a side effect since you (nobody is) are not use to this configuration, if many people adopt this method in no time will look "convensional" and also "Exept it"

 

[Bicyclist]

You still haven't answered why you put spacers under your stem after lowering it. That's what doesn't make sense.

 

[binary visions]

You still haven't answered why you put spacers under your stem after lowering it. That's what doesn't make sense.

I'd think the answer would be self-evident. He likes a steeper head angle but higher bar height. People do that all the time.

The setup looks weird and I'd imagine it might get in the way of your arms/elbows - but if it doesn't, and the wall thickness under the clamps is fine, there's no reason not to do it.

 

[patineto]

You still haven't answered why you put spacers under your stem after lowering it. That's what doesn't make sense.

Oh i'm sorry....

first I don't want to cut the steer tube on the fork (any Fork), so i need spacers to compensate for that...

but the main reason is that i see every one of my projects as a "Test bed" (I quess a side effect of many years at the school lab) so i try to leave as much room for set up variations as possible so i can experiment with diferent setting and figure out what is best...

who knows maybe next time to see the bike I will have the spacers at the ToP of the stem as oppose to the bottom or maybe the stem will be mount above the upper triple clamp in a more convensional setting..

In short....
I bet you with this set up I have provides far Many choices and settings than any of your Guys running the fork in a "Typical"
way,,, but then again for me OpTiOns are important, specially when it comes to Ergonomic compromises since I spend many years studing that field

 

[Bicyclist]

I'd think the answer would be self-evident. He likes a steeper head angle but higher bar height. People do that all the time.

The setup looks weird and I'd imagine it might get in the way of your arms/elbows - but if it doesn't, and the wall thickness under the clamps is fine, there's no reason not to do it.

OK, that makes sense.

 

[DirtyMike]

Well, i didnt read all the post because i dont want my Answer to be tainted. Anywho some dampers require setting like that. Honestly if you use an Integrated stem you will see the same increase in stiffness with the setup you have. The only real problem i see with your set up is the Increased elverage your putting on your head tube. From the pictures your headtube seems fairly short, and with all trip clamp style forks the greater the distance between the crowns the more force will transfer into your headtube. I wouls suggest trying an integrates stem and keeping the distance in the crowns as close as possible. But, if you like the setup only thing i can suggest would be to Make absolutely sure the clamps are located close enough Fork spec wize and that they are located in the area of the fork they were intended. Keep a close eye on your headtube though. would really hate to see a post in the future about ripping it off at full speed. Good luck keep riding
________
Head shop

 

[patineto]

Well, i didnt read all the post because i dont want my Answer to be tainted. Anywho some dampers require setting like that. Honestly if you use an Integrated stem you will see the same increase in stiffness with the setup you have. The only real problem i see with your set up is the Increased elverage your putting on your head tube. From the pictures your headtube seems fairly short, and with all trip clamp style forks the greater the distance between the crowns the more force will transfer into your headtube. I wouls suggest trying an integrates stem and keeping the distance in the crowns as close as possible. But, if you like the setup only thing i can suggest would be to Make absolutely sure the clamps are located close enough Fork spec wize and that they are located in the area of the fork they were intended. Keep a close eye on your headtube though. would really hate to see a post in the future about ripping it off at full speed. Good luck keep riding

Actually Mike i don't really like Integrated stems for a very simple reason..

when you crash a convensional stem takes the impact and transform that energy into motion, by abruptlly rotating the stem (ussing the steer tube as a "Axle") to the side and acting some how like a "Fuse" In comparation a integrated stem translate the whole force of the impact (unless the bars get bend) into the forks, forcing the whole fork including the wheel and the bars to rotate with out much energy being disipated as a result making the Frame far more suceptible of getting damage on a spill incident...

so the question is what you preffer...!?!?
A Twisted Stem that you can be fix with a Allen tool, or a Dent or dimple on your frame and/or fork....??

Actually two reasons...

you need to adapt to whatever the location of that stem is in space (Base on were the upper triple clamps is located) maybe compromising the mass transfer on the bike and the avility to load up the supension in the best posible way not to mension all the ergonomic compromises...