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...so when does the student loan crisis hit?

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norbar

KESSLER PROBLEM. Just cause
Jun 7, 2007
11,503
1,719
Warsaw :/
it's not black & white like that. there are options, like:
- intern for credit
- serve military for credit
- take CLEPs for credit
- go to community college
- get a scholarship/grant

the only reason why i suggest those is b/c i did it, but i understand everyone can't be like me. you could be a whingy little entitled bitch & try to say high quality free education followed by a guaranteed job in that field upon guaranteed graduation is a human right
before i got my undergrad, i was making 6 figures as a contractor, and didn't even have to go to a war zone to get it. but you know what i knew? my craft. and a guy. of course, it is more about who you know than what you know, so part of the leg work is networking & making a name for yourself through hard work.

ridiculously hard work (or in my case, the appearance of ridiculously hard work). given the choice of being an unoriginal lemming, or paving the road ahead, wouldn't you like to set yourself apart through ambition?

i guess that sets me apart from the 99%.
I agree it's who you know more than what you know in many cases. The thing is a good college helps you know such people.

As for college - yes there are other ways but still they have less chances than the rich ones. Also community college gives you far less chances. The thing is good colleges shoud be accessable to all people. I understand it will always be easier for rich people but getting the chances closer will stop the gap from expanding.
 

norbar

KESSLER PROBLEM. Just cause
Jun 7, 2007
11,503
1,719
Warsaw :/
Really? *All* people? :think:
Why not? I belive everyone should have the financial possiblity to go there. I'm not saying that people with an IQ of a cement block should be admitted. Nor I belive large quantities of people should have a chance to study islamic medicine of XV century or other ridiculous non real life subjects but I belive that if 2 people want to apply for a sport at a university their chances should only be judged by their qualification, not social background.
 

$tinkle

Expert on blowing
Feb 12, 2003
14,591
6
I understand it will always be easier for rich people but getting the chances closer will stop the gap from expanding.
this statement is meaningless w/o the appropriate context

if the bottom "only" comes up by 10%, and the top by 20%, is that necessarily bad gap expansion? b/c anything less than that is class warfare. i'll give no quarter to that.
 

norbar

KESSLER PROBLEM. Just cause
Jun 7, 2007
11,503
1,719
Warsaw :/
b/c financially irresponsible people contribute to the mess

that's why not
Yes because they were born financially irresponsible. That's what's education for.

Not to mention who is to blame? Someone uneducated for taking a credit that's been advertised to him or someone educated for selling him well knowing he can't pay.



As for the gap I agree it depends on the gap but the differance is not 10-20%. Look at the data. In some places in the US going to a certain school means you may end up in the 80% that don't reach college. I doubt good primary schools are only 20% better and 60% kids from there don't reach college ;)
 

TheMontashu

Pourly Tatteued Jeu
Mar 15, 2004
5,549
0
I'm homeless
b/c financially irresponsible people contribute to the mess

that's why not
Sounds like you need to go back to school and study some econ yourself, college education pays for itself in the long run in taxes.

Try this logic on for size stinkle, alright, so you go to school to get an education. It's all about learning right? So going to college and getting into college should be based on academic merit right? But instead you have this huge financial barrier that keeps people out of school for reasons that have NOTHING to do with how they did in high school, and everything to do with how poor their parents are.

As well, if higher education was based on merit, and not income as well, you would have poor people with access to higher education, and we just might see kids in the inner city with more than just 2 options 1) the Militarty (YAY POVERTY DRAFT, the bottom 1% can fight the top 1%'s war for profit) or 2) be a smile ball criminal
 

$tinkle

Expert on blowing
Feb 12, 2003
14,591
6
Sounds like you need to go back to school and study some econ yourself, college education pays for itself in the long run in taxes.
i can't tell which side of the argument you're on. i guess it depends on the thread?
Try this logic on for size stinkle, alright, so you go to school to get an education. It's all about learning right? So going to college and getting into college should be based on academic merit right? But instead you have this huge financial barrier that keeps people out of school for reasons that have NOTHING to do with how they did in high school, and everything to do with how poor their parents are.
maybe the gov't should subsidize unis

oh wait, they do. ya think this may contribute to the problem?
As well, if higher education was based on merit, and not income as well, you would have poor people with access to higher education, and we just might see kids in the inner city with more than just 2 options 1) the Militarty (YAY POVERTY DRAFT, the bottom 1% can fight the top 1%'s war for profit) or 2) be a smile ball criminal
funny, after graduating h.s., i was a waiter, bar-tender, and bike messenger, but for some damned reason, just couldn't break into the corporate world. so, i sold my soul and let the man rape me in the military. upon getting out, the nightmare continued with free school & quadrupling of my income
 

TheMontashu

Pourly Tatteued Jeu
Mar 15, 2004
5,549
0
I'm homeless
i can't tell which side of the argument you're on. i guess it depends on the thread?
maybe the gov't should subsidize unis
oh wait, they do. ya think this may contribute to the problem?
No, you just can't read well. If tax payers fully subsidize education, the tax payers investment will more than double up in the persons lifetime just in tax revenue. Not to mention the whole, more money in the economy. I just addressed that not 5 posts ago


funny, after graduating h.s., i was a waiter, bar-tender, and bike messenger, but for some damned reason, just couldn't break into the corporate world. so, i sold my soul and let the man rape me in the military. upon getting out, the nightmare continued with free school & quadrupling of my income
What the hell is your point? That you used tax payer money to pay for your education? Or that I should got get blown up shooting little Iraqi kids so the haliburton doucebags can make more money? Cause my willingness to die for some one else's bank account is largely irrelevant to my education in my opinion.
 

SacredYeti

Monkey
Sep 12, 2011
156
0
San Diego, CA
Certificate programs are a joke unless you are learning a trade, plain and simple.

Better off just getting a degree, or get both. For example my certification for an A&P ticket is getting turned into an AA to do about 6 additional general ed classes (math, english, arts, history, science, etc.). A lot of places do this, but because California is California it's getting harder to find state accredited certificate programs that allow you the proper credentials to transfer to a state university.

In terms of financial issues, that's why just about every real college has (a) FASFA (b) BOG waivers and (c) Pell Grant, a few still have free book programs as well (instead of buying them, you get issued books and turn them in after you finish).
 
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jimmydean

The Official Meat of Ridemonkey
Sep 10, 2001
43,106
15,187
Portland, OR
Certificate programs are a joke unless you are learning a trade, plain and simple.

Better off just getting a degree, or get both. For example my certification for an AMP ticket is getting turned into an AA to do about 6 additional general ed classes (math, english, arts, history, science, etc.). A lot of places do this, but because California is California it's getting harder to find state accredited certificate programs that allow you the proper credentials to transfer to a state university.

In terms of financial issues, that's why just about every real college has (a) FASFA (b) BOG waivers and (c) Pell Grant, a few still have free book programs as well (instead of buying them, you get issued books and turn them in after you finish).
The issue is that a BS degree doesn't mean sh!t other than you managed to go to class enough to pass. I got my first job as a software engineer 4 years before I had to go to school and get my BSCS. The only reason I had to go to school then was because the market was so flooded after the .com fiasco was a resume without one didn't get seen. It was an easy weeding out process.

But now MANY employers (Intel, Nike, Sun, Microsoft, Google are all local here) are looking at the school you went to as well as the degree you got. I can tell you from my experience, any jackass can go to the University of Phoenix and get a BS degree in just about any field with a big enough funding source.

Did I learn ANYTHING while getting my degree? Yes, I learned one thing. Don't go to the University of Phoenix. Worst cheerleaders EVAR.

But the harsh reality is there are few options to get a valid BSCS degree if you are a grown ass man with a family to support and wish to still support them. So I think an overall standard unit of measure for smarts through certification could not only PROVE you know your sh!t, but also save time/money getting something to show you might already know it.

<edit> On a lighter note, my son is an uneducated head chef. His old roommate is underemployed as a line cook with $45k worth of Western Culinary training to thank for it. There are very few kitchens in Portland that will even consider hiring a grad from any of the awesome cooking schools made available.
 
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MikeD

Leader and Demogogue of the Ridemonkey Satinists
Oct 26, 2001
11,735
1,819
chez moi
No, no, it's purporting to be possibly from a moderately attractive slightly-nerdy-appearing Asian woman on the Internet. It MUST be true and genuine!

I'll PM right now so my foot's in the door first. DIBS!
 

$tinkle

Expert on blowing
Feb 12, 2003
14,591
6
Number of the Week: Student Loan Bubble
368%: The jump since 2007 in the measure of consumer credit held by the government comprised primarily of student loans.

If a student loan bubble were to pop, the government, not private banks, would be the one standing around with gum in its hair.

Issuance of student loans has soared in recent years, hitting $867 billion at the end of 2011, according to an analysis from the Federal Reserve Bank of New York, more than credit cards or auto loans. The jump has led some to classify the student-lending market as a bubble, comparing it with the housing mess that nearly brought down the banking system in 2008.

But there are some big differences between student loans and housing. For starters, mortgage credit absolutely dwarfs lending for higher education — by nearly a 10-to-1 ratio. Troubles in an $8 trillion market pose a much higher systemic risk.

The other big difference is who holds the loans. Commercial banks and investment firms held the bulk of the mortgages that were going sour when the housing bubble burst. But that’s not the case with student loans. Despite some recent signals of banks getting back into the student-loan business, private lending has been pretty much stagnant since the recession hit. Since December 2007 nonrevolving consumer lending by commercial banks — a measure tracked by the Federal Reserve that includes student loans as well as auto and other personal credit — is up less than 11%. Over the same period, total consumer loans owned by the federal government — a measure that includes loans originated by the Department of Education under the Federal Direct Loan Program — has more than quadrupled.

 

SkaredShtles

Michael Bolton
Sep 21, 2003
67,858
14,181
In a van.... down by the river
I like Rolling Stone's immediate off-loading of responsibility from those TAKING OUT THE LOANS:

"The federal government has made it easier than ever to borrow money for higher education - saddling a generation with crushing debts"

The fundamental issue is young adults with an extremely poor understanding of basic finances.
 

Pesqueeb

bicycle in airplane hangar
Feb 2, 2007
41,829
19,156
Riding the baggage carousel.
Work, save money, and take classes as you can afford.

It's no different than buying anything. Don't buy it if you can't afford it.
Let's assume that a smart kid gets the first two years of college done in a local CC and leaves it debt free. A further 2 years at CSU, 18 units a semester costs $9402.74. So, $37,611ish just for classes, assuming again you graduate in two years. Plus books, living expenses, etc.

Sure you can work and study both full time, maybe even save up a couple grand before school, but it seems unrealistic to me to go to college without accruing some kind of debt, maybe not "crushing" debt per se, but debt none the less, unless you're one of Mitt Romney's kids. This doesn't include "upper level" education, PHD's, Doctors, etc. We should ask Toshi about his debt.
 

stevew

resident influencer
Sep 21, 2001
41,165
10,105
Let's assume that a smart kid gets the first two years of college done in a local CC and leaves it debt free. A further 2 years at CSU, 18 units a semester costs $9402.74. So, $37,611ish just for classes, assuming again you graduate in two years. Plus books, living expenses, etc.

Sure you can work and study both full time, maybe even save up a couple grand before school, but it seems unrealistic to me to go to college without accruing some kind of debt, maybe not "crushing" debt per se, but debt none the less, unless you're one of Mitt Romney's kids. This doesn't include "upper level" education, PHD's, Doctors, etc. We should ask Toshi about his debt.
on the eighth day god created bootstraps to pull yourself up by....
 

SkaredShtles

Michael Bolton
Sep 21, 2003
67,858
14,181
In a van.... down by the river
Let's assume that a smart kid gets the first two years of college done in a local CC and leaves it debt free. A further 2 years at CSU, 18 units a semester costs $9402.74. So, $37,611ish just for classes, assuming again you graduate in two years. Plus books, living expenses, etc.

Sure you can work and study both full time, maybe even save up a couple grand before school, but it seems unrealistic to me to go to college without accruing some kind of debt, maybe not "crushing" debt per se, but debt none the less, unless you're one of Mitt Romney's kids. This doesn't include "upper level" education, PHD's, Doctors, etc. We should ask Toshi about his debt.
Well, if basic analysis is done it might make *sense* to take on some amount of debt. However, the whole "let's just go to college for 5 years and damn the torpedoes" attitude needs to end.

Do the math - if it makes sense... do it. But don't assume that it's going to make sense. Just because Junior *wants* to go to private school and major in art... doesn't mean Junior *should.*
 
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Pesqueeb

bicycle in airplane hangar
Feb 2, 2007
41,829
19,156
Riding the baggage carousel.
Well, if basic analysis is done it might make *sense* to take on some amount of debt. However, the whole "let's just go to college for 5 years and damn the torpedoes" attitude needs to end.

Do the math - if it makes sense... do it. But don't assume that it's going to make sense. Just because Junior *wants* to go to private school and major in art... doesn't mean Junior *should.*
I don't disagree at all. Granted, all I eventually graduated with was a technical degree, but I left college debt free and worked from my sophomore year of high school. My wife on the other hand, had to go to a private college in Santa Barbara to get a degree in a field she's never worked in and we are still paying for her ****. Guess which one of us makes the majority if the income. Hint; she's just going back to work full time for the first time in almost 5 years. I just think it's unrealistic to expect that our particular situation to applies to every one. Not everyone has the opportunities we had.
 

SkaredShtles

Michael Bolton
Sep 21, 2003
67,858
14,181
In a van.... down by the river
I don't disagree at all. Granted, all I eventually graduated with was a technical degree, but I left college debt free and worked from my sophomore year of high school. My wife on the other hand, had to go to a private college in Santa Barbara to get a degree in a field she's never worked in and we are still paying for her ****. Guess which one of us makes the majority if the income. Hint; she's just going back to work full time for the first time in almost 5 years. I just think it's unrealistic to expect that our particular situation to applies to every one. Not everyone has the opportunities we had.
Sounds like she and her parents were not very good at financial analysis... either that or they weren't very realistic about how the world works. :D

Or they just figured she'd find some sucker to pay it off eventually. ;)
 

KavuRider

Turbo Monkey
Jan 30, 2006
2,565
4
CT
Necro thread bump...2 years on from my last post in it anyways...

I successfully sold my house and am now in the Navy with a good rate and great mentors who are helping me to find a direction in life for the first time.

So yay me I guess. Sad to see all the guys who are here due to being swamped in student loan debt.
 

jimmydean

The Official Meat of Ridemonkey
Sep 10, 2001
43,106
15,187
Portland, OR
Well, if basic analysis is done it might make *sense* to take on some amount of debt. However, the whole "let's just go to college for 5 years and damn the torpedoes" attitude needs to end.

Do the math - if it makes sense... do it. But don't assume that it's going to make sense. Just because Junior *wants* to go to private school and major in art... doesn't mean Junior *should.*
:stupid:

My paper degree got me the jobs I have had, my experience is what keeps me around. I had to get a degree to get an interview then, that isn't as big a deal in tech again.

But you can't swing a dead cat in downtown Portland without hitting a Art History major, or worse a Culinary School Attendee/Grad.