[LordOpie]

Originally posted by 911
yes we all know Iraq had these weapons, yet they said they destroyed them. Whether or not they actually did remains unclear...

They were supposed to prove destruction/dismantling. The responsibility laid with them.

Originally posted by 911
what I was trying to say was that war should be an absolute last resort.

What's a last resort? When they start using the weapons?

Originally posted by 911
What angered me most is that Bush seemed to want no part of any sort of peaceful resolution.

Bush doesn't make these decisions on his own. The peaceful resolution part was tried by previous US administrations as well as other political parties.

btw, I don't like Bush, so I'm not making excuses for him.

Originally posted by 911
Like I said, weapons or not, Iraq was contained, they were not a threat to us.

That's a rather ego-centric point of view. What about Kuwait, Israel, the Kurds?

Originally posted by 911
Given time diplomacy would have prevailed…

How much time would you like to have given them?

Originally posted by 911
Showing off our military power as a quick remedy for international disputes sets a dangerous precedent...

Quick remedy? You're right tho, a dangerous precendent! :devil: The USA showed the world that we're still bad@sses We're capable and willing. Hell, Rumsfeld was trying to pick a fight with Syria and Iran *during* our fight with Iraq. mwuahahahaah


Did I address all your concerns, questions, etc?

 

[SandMan]

Originally posted by LordOpie
I just don't like discussing the same thing over and over again with different words.

However, I wasn't specifically refering to you, not really anyone in particular, but comments like, "Remember the UN had inspections to find WMD, if they were given more time they would have come to the same result." Come on, seriously? How long had it been going on? Saddam said in February, "No, really, this time I'm going to cooperate." And did the least possible. Why? Cuz he figured if he delayed until, say, June, that the USA, et.al. wouldn't do anything cuz everyone knows many, many more soldiers would've died in the evil heat of that desert.

Saddam was backed into a corner by the UN and the world community; the inspections would have worked if given a chance, as long as the world community would not back down. Maybe they would have found WMD or not. Going to war, a war that has benefits for a few elites more then anything else, does more damage then good. Like I mentioned before do you honestly think the world is safer now, the war has angered many Muslim extremist and made the world and especially the west more vulnerable.

 

[SandMan]

Originally posted by BurlySurly
The North Korea problem "is" being dealt with. Just not in such a fashion.

What are they doing?

Originally posted by BurlySurly
I disagree that inspections would have achieved the same result, as they would have left a power-mad, terrorist harboring, anti-western government in charge. Remember, the inspectors were there so iraq could prove it had disarmed, which they didnt. They were not there to search every nook and cranny for anthrax.

I don't know about the terrorist harboring thing, it has not been proven. As for the rest I aggree with you, but don't forget who put him in power and who support him during the war with Iraq, plus who turned a blind eye when he gased the Kurds.

 

[SandMan]

Originally posted by LordOpie
Oh, the law... I don't remember seeing you much in here, so really, it doesn't apply to you. Like I said before, much of this has been discussed by others in other threads. I'm just surprised to see the same weak arguements being thrown back in by those who've already discussed it. I enjoyed reading your posts.

Don't worry The Law, that's LordOpie for you, when he run out of constructive things to say, he has to add some little remark to make him feel like he he got the last work.

 

[LordOpie]

Originally posted by SandMan
Don't worry The Law, that's LordOpie for you, when he run out of constructive things to say, he has to add some little remark to make him feel like he he got the last work.

that's cuz of people like you with comments like this...

Originally posted by SandMan
Saddam was backed into a corner by the UN and the world community...

 

[the law]

I know I am beating a dead horse, but here is another reason why I tend to be skeptical:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20030530/ap_on_re_eu/wolfowitz_iraq_4

By the way it is an AP story

 

[ohio]

Originally posted by valve bouncer
Whether or not there was justification for the war (WMDs etc) is a moot point.

It might be moot, if not for the precedent it sets... which may have greater consequences than the specific war itself.

The government made claims, which we believed. The government waged a war, which we supported contingent on proof of those claims. If there are no consequences for failure to prove those claims valid, our government becomes the most potentially dangerous one the world has ever seen. It's a failure of the checks and balances that are designed to prevent dictatorship. I'm not saying Bush is a dictator (nor will he ever be), but his actions have opened the door to one in the future. I'd hardly call that moot. (I swear I'm not a conspiracy theorist)

In a strange twist, it makes me glad we have a well-armed populace... the best protection against a tyrannical gov't.

 

[LordOpie]

Originally posted by ohio
It might be moot, if not for the precedent it sets... which may have greater consequences than the specific war itself.

The government made claims, which we believed. The government waged a war, which we supported contingent on proof of those claims. If there are no consequences for failure to prove those claims valid, our government becomes the most potentially dangerous one the world has ever seen. It's a failure of the checks and balances that are designed to prevent dictatorship. I'm not saying Bush is a dictator (nor will he ever be), but his actions have opened the door to one in the future. I'd hardly call that moot. (I swear I'm not a conspiracy theorist)

In a strange twist, it makes me glad we have a well-armed populace... the best protection against a tyrannical gov't.

It is a moot point and I'll explain why...

Other governments (non-civilians) know we didn't invade because of the threat of those specific WMDs. They know we invaded to expand the American empire and secure our interests in that region.

As such, they know the US Admin only used the propaganda as a smoke screen and won't be all that surprised when we do it again. Hell, France all but came out and said this.

France, Germany, Russia, et.al. didn't really have anything to gain and were/are afraid of the monetary loss of the regime change.

Civilans (particularly US citizens) in support of the war would have been supportive even without the threat of WMDs.

Civilians against the war would have been against it, even if they had a PhD in nuclear science and were allowed to visit Iraq to see first hand that Saddam was producing fissible material for warheads and ICBMs.

So, it's moot cuz nothing would have changed.

The only thing that has changed is that some citizens are upset because they fell for the propaganda and others are upset cuz their more jadded. In time tho, they will come to understand that no gov't. will come out and tell you what they're up to. You have to trust them or make an effort to change the system. KNOW THIS... changing the system will only put other people in office who will do what they think is best for the country... you'll NEVER get any real disclosure abou their activities, certainly not during a situation.

In summary, no one with any power or voice is surprised by any of this. Not the democrats, not France, no one. Everyone will act surprised and outraged as a way to gain power from it. Hell, France is just pissed cuz they're trying really hard to be #1... Too bad they're a distant third behind USA and China... mwuhahahaha :devil:

 

[ohio]

Originally posted by LordOpie

So, it's moot cuz nothing would have changed.

You didn't read my post, did you? No wonder you're complaining that people keep making the same arguments...

What's truly bad about the whole situation is NOT that it could have had a different/better result. It's that it demonstrates a flaw in our governmental process, and apparently that is acceptable. Go read up on the value of "precedent," which is the foundation of our legal system, and you'll understand why this is so dangerous.

In this case the PROCESS is as important as the RESULT.

 

[LordOpie]

Originally posted by ohio
You didn't read my post, did you? No wonder you're complaining that people keep making the same arguments...

What's truly bad about the whole situation is NOT that it could have had a different/better result. It's that it demonstrates a flaw in our governmental process, and apparently that is acceptable. Go read up on the value of "precedent," which is the foundation of our legal system, and you'll understand why this is so dangerous.

In this case the PROCESS is as important as the RESULT.

Umm, I did read your post... wanna start a pissing contest?

I understood that the process doesn't please you. I understand you want accountability. I understand that you think the process is easily manipulated, but I'm saying that everyone in the process knew what was going on while it was happening. Civilians needed the excuse, not Congress. If the Democrats go after the Admin, attacking them for lack of evidence, it's not cuz they want to avoid setting a precedent, it's not cuz they want to right a wrong, it's not cuz they disagree... it's cuz they want to get a Democrat as President.

The only people who honestly care about accountability are just the simple people who are managed by the system. Democrats don't really want accountability cuz they don't want to be held accountable either.

You want accountability? Sorry, I honestly don't think there's a single political system, even hypothetical, that would yield the kind of accountability you want.

"It's that it demonstrates a flaw in our governmental process..." ~ Ohio
You're going to have to elaborate on the flaw in the system, cuz Bush went before Congress and got approval. Hell, the war was just another, yet bigger, bargaining chip just like most things in Congress.

Don't like the system? don't start with the PotUS... start with lobbyists.

 

[ohio]

Originally posted by LordOpie

The only people who honestly care about accountability

Just because most don't care, doesn't mean most shouldn't care.

Bush went before Congress. So did Hitler. I would never ever ever equate the two... my point is the precedent we've just set opens the door for a dictatorship.

 

[ohio]

Originally posted by LordOpie
I'm saying that everyone in the process knew what was going on while it was happening

Everyone being aware of a flaw in the process does not make it go away, and does not mean the problem is solved. Is that what you're suggesting? That somehow because everyone knows the system is corrupt and thusly manipulates it somehow means the system is hunky-dory?

 

[LordOpie]

Originally posted by ohio
Everyone being aware of a flaw in the process does not make it go away, and does not mean the problem is solved. Is that what you're suggesting? That somehow because everyone knows the system is corrupt and thusly manipulates it somehow means the system is hunky-dory?

Did you read my post?

You want accountability? Sorry, I honestly don't think there's a single political system, even hypothetical*, that would yield the kind of accountability you want.

I didn't say it's right or hunky-dory... I suggested that no system exists. I don't claim to be brilliant or well-informed, but from what I've learned, there never has been a system, isn't one now and won't be one. Granted my education only goes as far back as Plato who also knew it was unlikely. I don't know much about the political systems before then... not that I know all that much about anything anyway.


Sorry kid, I like you, I really do, but you're gonna have to make a choice.


PS: The hypothetical I'm refering to is one that isn't in place, but could realistically be instituted. I'm not talking about some impossible utopia.

 

[Serial Midget]

OK – here is the deal. The facts are not generally publicized due to the potentially embarrassing situation the CIA would find itself in should this information become widely circulated.

All the “overheard” conversations between the Republican Guard and “Research Scientists” concerning biological and / or chemical weapons were in fact misinterpreted telephone conversations between the offices of the Republican Guard Facilities Management and a Syrian pest management company concerning a rather large cockroach infestation within a building they managed. Insiders blame this minor error on a lack of Arabic speaking analysts.

EDIT: Sources inside Iraq confirm that the pest problem has been rectified by elimating the infested building altogether. Unnamed senior Pentagon officials confimed that the Sate Department would not bill Iraq for it's pest elimination services, "We consider the service a gift to the Iraqi people".

 

[N8 v2.0]

Originally posted by Spud
The Washington and London grossly overstated the WMD threat which was the presumably our only interest in Iraq. Incompetence or deceit appear as the only explanation.

The Law summed up the implications pretty well.

Imagine the horror if the US & UK did not overstate the WMD threat and one went off...???

These weapons in the hands of terrorist countries needs to be overstated.

 

[N8 v2.0]

Originally posted by Serial Midget
OK – here is the deal. The facts are not generally publicized due to the potentially embarrassing situation the CIA would find itself in should this information become widely circulated.

All the “overheard” conversations between the Republican Guard and “Research Scientists” concerning biological and / or chemical weapons were in fact misinterpreted telephone conversations between the offices of the Republican Guard Facilities Management and a Syrian pest management company concerning a rather large cockroach infestation within a building they managed. Insiders blame this minor error on a lack of Arabic speaking analysts.

EDIT: Sources inside Iraq confirm that the pest problem has been rectified by elimating the infested building altogether. Unnamed senior Pentagon officials confimed that the Sate Department would not bill Iraq for it's pest elimination services, "We consider the service a gift to the Iraqi people".

 

[N8 v2.0]

U.S. soldiers taken captive by Iranians

WASHINGTON (AP) — Four U.S. soldiers and five civilians in two boats were taken captive by Iranians, blindfolded and interrogated before being released, U.S. Central Command said Monday. Two of the civilians were still being held.

Four soldiers from the Army's 1092nd Engineer Company, a civilian Army contractor, two civilian captains and two boat drivers were sailing up the Shatt al Arab waterway in the al Faw peninsula Sunday to pick up Iraqi South Oil Co. personnel when they were taken by force by Iranians, a spokesman, Cmdr. Dan Gage, said from Central Command headquarters in Tampa

The nationalities of the civilians were not available.

The boats were to take the oil company personnel to the Mini al Bakr platform to conduct a survey of the oil platform when the Iranians blindfolded them and took them to a building where they were interrogated throughout Sunday night, Gage said.

On Monday, the Iranians took the group back to their boats and released all of them except the two drivers, Gage said.

A Chinook helicopter located them near the waterway Monday, Gage said. U.S. Navy crew members drove the boats to Kuwait.

Initial medical examinations indicate there were no injuries or signs of physical abuse, Gage said.

The group may have moved into Iranian territorial waters, he said. The Mini al Bakr platform is very close to Iran's declared international water boundaries.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Copyright 2003 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

 

[fluff]

Originally posted by N8
Imagine the horror if the US & UK did not overstate the WMD threat and one went off...???

These weapons in the hands of terrorist countries needs to be overstated.

What????

So you are justifying an invasion on the basis of justifying an invasion?

What sort of logic is that?

Why do you need to overstate a threat unless you have a hidden agenda?

 

[BurlyShirley]

blah blah blah!

Here's what Powell and Rice said Today: Makes sense to me

INTELLIGENCE SURE OF WMDs

 

[valve bouncer]

Originally posted by BurlySurly
blah blah blah!

Here's what Powell and Rice said Today: Makes sense to me

INTELLIGENCE SURE OF WMDs

this is fun, can I play......."blah blah blah
This is what the Observer had to say. Makes sense to me
http://www.observer.co.uk/iraq/story/0,12239,973195,00.html

 

[fluff]

Originally posted by valve bouncer
this is fun, can I play......."blah blah blah
This is what the Observer had to say. Makes sense to me
http://www.observer.co.uk/iraq/story/0,12239,973195,00.html

Cue lots of 'Yeah right, the Observer. Isn't that the same as the left wing propaganda paper The Guardian?' posts...

Oops, nearly forgot that great argument;

blah blah blah..

 

[valve bouncer]

Originally posted by fluff
Cue lots of 'Yeah right, the Observer. Isn't that the same as the left wing propaganda paper The Guardian?' posts...

Oops, nearly forgot that great argument;

blah blah blah..

LOL, yeah I was thinking that as I posted. Of course in BS's world anyone even slightly to the left of Genghis Khan is suspect so I wouldn't take too much notice. Hey Fluff, did I mention "blah blah blah"?

 

[LordOpie]

first, I dig Powell and Rice and think they should run for Pres and VP someday

...the units were designed to be used for hydrogen production to fill artillery balloons, part of a system originally sold to Saddam by Britain in 1987.

We know what they are cuz we sold them to him.

Doh!!



regardless of which "side" you're on... everyone looks stupid and it's great comedic material!

 

[valve bouncer]

Originally posted by LordOpie
first, I dig Powell and Rice and think they should run for Pres and VP someday


We know what they are cuz we sold them to him.

Doh!!



regardless of which "side" you're on... everyone looks stupid and it's great comedic material!

Yeah except these people have their fingers on the little red button 'Spose it could be worse Opie, could be you and me with our fingers on the button. Dunno about you but I'd be all "so what's this one do?.....ah gee sorry Uzbekistan"

 

[fluff]

Originally posted by valve bouncer
Yeah except these people have their fingers on the little red button 'Spose it could be worse Opie, could be you and me with our fingers on the button. Dunno about you but I'd be all "so what's this one do?.....ah gee sorry Uzbekistan"

Funny how the punchline always ends in 'stan'. Never forget it could be "..ah gee, sorry Texas.." (Or England, not that so many people actually know where this little green island is.)

 

[LordOpie]

bump