[mealsonwheels]

I hate to get too friggin' serious on this board, but all the rain damage really got me thinking about the long term health of our trails.

I've only been riding about 5-6 years, so the Socal fires and subsequent rain was my first real experience with trail destruction caused by natural disasters. Some of my favorite trails were in creek beds in San Diego, and now the runoff after the fires has deposited sand all over the low laying parts of the trail. Has anyone who's been riding for a number of years seen this kind of destruction before? If so, what did it take to return the trails to their buffed out condition? I'm concerned that the damage is irreversible and that repairing the existing trails is futile. Fires are regular occurrences in Socal, and I hate to repair trails that follow creek beds only to see them destroyed 10 years later.

It also seems like the ad hoc bypass trails that go around sandy sections are poorly planned out and much slower than the original trails. I'm wondering if in areas such as Sycamore Canyon, Spring Canyon and Oak Canyon we are better off redesigning entirely new and sustainable trails that do not follow the creek beds. Several people and one Santee resident in particular have put in a ton of work on Sycamore canyon trails, and that is commendable.

I would love to see the new trails more closely resemble the older trails with fast flowy sections instead of the current slow and windy bypass trails. I'm not posting to criticize others, but I really do want to find out what sustainable solutions exist for our local trails. I feel that our current approach is short sighted and doesn't improve the rider's experience on the trails. I love technical rock gardens, and slow technical singletracks, but non-technical sections of trail that were at one time fast are now just slow windy singletrack. I think if we had better planning we could make the trails fast and flowy again. Of course I'm only referring to trails that are in open areas outside of parks such as Mission Trails; Areas where there are no governing bodies to oversee trail maintenance.

Any thoughts?

 

[EBasil]

I think the only places with trails that aren't under somebody's supervision (not commenting on the quality of the supervision) are those on private property. For example, the singletracks on top of the Del Mar Mesa that riders have enjoyed for years are all on private property (and about to be bulldozed, but that's for another topic) and have been the site of private/"Pirate" trail design and repair ...could be again.

Once we get into the various parks or public lands, even the "good" land managers are hobbled by the California Environmental Quality Act (CEQA), which is a good law for protecting open space, but a major PITA for developing NEW trails. So, the Rangers, or whatnot, are stuck with closing redundant trails or letting us work within their general confines. This doesn't always suck at all, but usually does mean the opposite of what you were thinking of in terms of "fast trails"... (fast sounds like injuries to them). One great example of trail recontouring is "Ess Curves" in Mission Trails: the SDMBA took a rutted, fire-road width trail and narrowed it down to a set of chicanes with drainage dips, berms and armoring. It went from a FAST, but boring drop down a wide rut fest to a really great (still fast for riders better than I) descent and fun climb.

One thing for sure: MTB riders shouldn't "fix trails" on public land without a Ranger, etc... signing off on it first: we get crucified worse than any user group for doing it, and just piss off the Rangers that we can usually otherwise work with. I have to believe that the Rangers working in Sycamore Canyon would love to have MTB-community work on their trails. Sooner or later, the CCC-funds will burn out and those kids in the SD CCC aren't exactly "Trail Engineers"....

There ARE ways to design trails to the satisfaction of Rangers but that can be Fast as all hell: long sight lines are one key ingredient. Another is remembering not to discuss how fast the trail will be... :evil:

 

[mealsonwheels]

I think the only places with trails that aren't under somebody's supervision (not commenting on the quality of the supervision) are those on private property. For example, the singletracks on top of the Del Mar Mesa that riders have enjoyed for years are all on private property (and about to be bulldozed, but that's for another topic) and have been the site of private/"Pirate" trail design and repair ...could be again.

Once we get into the various parks or public lands, even the "good" land managers are hobbled by the California Environmental Quality Act (CEQA), which is a good law for protecting open space, but a major PITA for developing NEW trails. So, the Rangers, or whatnot, are stuck with closing redundant trails or letting us work within their general confines. This doesn't always suck at all, but usually does mean the opposite of what you were thinking of in terms of "fast trails"... (fast sounds like injuries to them). One great example of trail recontouring is "Ess Curves" in Mission Trails: the SDMBA took a rutted, fire-road width trail and narrowed it down to a set of chicanes with drainage dips, berms and armoring. It went from a FAST, but boring drop down a wide rut fest to a really great (still fast for riders better than I) descent and fun climb.

One thing for sure: MTB riders shouldn't "fix trails" on public land without a Ranger, etc... signing off on it first: we get crucified worse than any user group for doing it, and just piss off the Rangers that we can usually otherwise work with. I have to believe that the Rangers working in Sycamore Canyon would love to have MTB-community work on their trails. Sooner or later, the CCC-funds will burn out and those kids in the SD CCC aren't exactly "Trail Engineers"....

There ARE ways to design trails to the satisfaction of Rangers but that can be Fast as all hell: long sight lines are one key ingredient. Another is remembering not to discuss how fast the trail will be... :evil:

Thanks for the help. I ride Mission Trails regularly, but I'm not familiar with S Curves. Where is it? I'm also not familiar with CCC. What is that? I also didn't know about the CEQA, but I'll look into that further to understand land managers' limitations. I just read today that the areas north of the 52 will become a part of Mission Trails, and Sycamore Canyon will also become parkland. This will bring these trails under Ranger supervision. I'd like to work with them to build intelligently designed sustainable trails. I don't intend to focus on the speed of trails with rangers, but the line of sight comment is something I'll remember. Very good insight Ebasil. Thanks.

 

[Gimper4JC]

I'm down, WHEN DO WE START?

All kidding aside, I ride with one of the "volunteer" patrol rangers and I will quietly inquire as to what can be done next.

Also I think SDMBA will offer us a lot of answers...

Mark? BullittX?

I've inquirred into this subject before to no avail. It's seemed to be a dead subject that went nowhere,.. to build "new" trails when we are having problems keeping the ones we have.

But, " Public Use is a Reason for Preservation of Public Lands."

 

[mealsonwheels]

I've inquirred into this subject before to no avail. It's seemed to be a dead subject that went nowhere,.. to build "new" trails when we are having problems keeping the ones we have.

That's my point Gimper. The existing trails seem very high maintenance since they lay in creekbeds and are prone to destruction from occasionally heavy rainstorms. If we created better trails to begin with it would require less maintenance effort. I hope you can find out something from your friend.

Funny that they can spend a ton of $ on some unnecessary parking lot at the end of Mast, but can't hire a dedicated trail maintenance person at say $40k a year to maintain the destination of most park visitors. Instead resources are directed towards where people leave their cars.

Ryan

 

[EBasil]

Man, I get worn out just trying to keep up with all the opportunities the SDMBA and other groups give me to work on "existing" trails, so the idea of climbing up the beaurocratic ladder for permission to create a "new" one just intimidates me. Don't get me wrong, but it should intimidate you guys, too. Honestly, I think you'll be able to channel the Good Side of the Force much better by nuancing your idea to focus on "reconfiguring existing trails". Just find some that have good "corridors".

"CCC" refers to the California Conservation Corps, a state agency with a division in San Diego, now based out of National City. I can assure you that San Diego's crew aren't necessarily representative of the CCC in general, but one of the things that CCC are used for is "contract labor" to other agencies. In the case of Sycamore Canyon, the admin there have a team of CCC doing some trail repair/rerouting/maintenance. The money the Rangers have for that will run out, eventually.

 

[HarryCallahan]

You guys might want to check out what the good folks at Mountain bikers of Santa Cruz mbosc.org and <www.trailworkers.com> have done / are doing. Not saying they've got all the answers, 'cause from what I'm reading here, EBasil is pretty "on it."

They've done a few notable projects that might be relevant to this thread. They did a re-route of the north end of the "Old Cabin" trail at Wilder Ranch. That end of the trail was a mess, going through a seasonal wetland, then flirting with the edge of an eroding gully. They proposed a re-route to State parks, State Parks, did the CEQA work, then volunteers came in and re-routed the trail. But yeah, it was about a 2 or 3 year process.

On the U-conn trail, developed with the local equestrian group as a regional connector, there are overall great sight lines and s-curves, plus a nice steady grade. It's very climbable, and a fast sinuous descent. And it is overall well engineered to handle the 30 to 40 inches of rain it gets every year with a few hours of annual maintenance.

 

[BullittX]

If you really wish to get involved, please contact everett@sdmba.com, he is the SDMBA liaison with MTRP.

I hope you guys follow through with this, volunteering will help increase mtb access!

mark@sdmba.com

 

[mealsonwheels]

You guys might want to check out what the good folks at Mountain bikers of Santa Cruz mbosc.org and <www.trailworkers.com> have done / are doing. Not saying they've got all the answers, 'cause from what I'm reading here, EBasil is pretty "on it."

They've done a few notable projects that might be relevant to this thread. They did a re-route of the north end of the "Old Cabin" trail at Wilder Ranch. That end of the trail was a mess, going through a seasonal wetland, then flirting with the edge of an eroding gully. They proposed a re-route to State parks, State Parks, did the CEQA work, then volunteers came in and re-routed the trail. But yeah, it was about a 2 or 3 year process.

On the U-conn trail, developed with the local equestrian group as a regional connector, there are overall great sight lines and s-curves, plus a nice steady grade. It's very climbable, and a fast sinuous descent. And it is overall well engineered to handle the 30 to 40 inches of rain it gets every year with a few hours of annual maintenance.

I lived in the Santa Cruz Mtns. for a few years and my neighborhood trail was Soquel Demo. Riders there were able to legalize a once illegal riding trail (Braille) so I know we can make progress if we are willing to cooperate.

 

[mealsonwheels]

If you really wish to get involved, please contact everett@sdmba.com, he is the SDMBA liaison with MTRP.

I hope you guys follow through with this, volunteering will help increase mtb access!

mark@sdmba.com

Thanks Mark. I'll contact Everett and see what we can do. Sounds like this will be a lengthy process.

 

[Zark]

Santa Barbara riders, there is a trail maintenance planned for Cold Springs trail Dec 11th.
Check www.sbmtv.org for more news soon.

 

[the mtn man]

Thanks Mark. I'll contact Everett and see what we can do. Sounds like this will be a lengthy process.

hey guys
i live in the poway area, and ill be willing to help with anything you guys get started. ive always daydreamed about working with some trails in or near poway, and ill be more than happy to get a few of my friends on board to help with whatever your guys do.

 

[mealsonwheels]

hey guys
i live in the poway area, and ill be willing to help with anything you guys get started. ive always daydreamed about working with some trails in or near poway, and ill be more than happy to get a few of my friends on board to help with whatever your guys do.

Thanks, I'll let you know when things get organized.

 

[BullittX]

We will be meeting at the Caballo Trail Entrance to Daley Ranch this
Saturday, December 11th, 8:00 a.m. for our last trail maintenance
event of 2004. We'll be creating some new switchbacks on the
last section of the trail. Once again we will clean out the SDMBA
Swag Closet and give it away "white elephant style".
Afterward, we'll take a hilly, intermediate ride on the best
trails in the park. RSVP to minette@sdmba.com

Directions:
15 Freeway North to El Norte Parkway. Head east past the La Honda
drive park entrance. Turn left on Washington Avenue, then left again
on East Valley Parkway. Go ¼ mile and turn left at Mayflower Dog
Park. Follow the signs to the Caballo Trailhead.

mark@sdmba.com