[stosh]

I caught a very disturbing story last night on NPR. Not sure how many of you are familiar with Blackwater contract mercenaries who operate in Iraq and our nations other wars and also done "security" work during the Katrina fall out.

Please, if you have some time take a listen.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=8992128

Click the link "Listen" under the title.

 

[sanjuro]

I thought Blackwater was based in Berkeley, owned by an ex-deadhead who is expanding his bakery by supplying security and military agents.

Blackwater is actually owned a southern Christian?

 

[stosh]

I thought Blackwater was based in Berkeley, owned by an ex-deadhead who is expanding his bakery by supplying security and military agents.

Blackwater is actually owned a southern Christian?

I think he was originally from Michigan but the training facility is based out of NC.

 

[sanjuro]

I apologize for my sarcasm. However, I have a strong belief that there are many things which occur during a war that none of us want to know about, and in the light of day, seem horrific.

I was previously familiar with Blackwater, and I expected a private mercenary service to flourish in the Iraqi war, given the large job ahead. I don't think Blackwater is making widescale attacks, but I am not surprised they have traded gunfire in their "protective" services.

Frankly, when I see the NPR headline is "Blackwater USA is a secret army based in North Carolina with a sole owner: Erik Prince, a radical right-wing Christian multimillionaire.", I am going to knee-jerk, just in the opposite direction.

 

[stosh]

I can understand the hiring of out sourcing for some security details in Iraq. The thing that worries me is that they don't fall under any U.S. or military laws. The other thing that scares me is their work continues in the US. Personally the idea that you can say "things which occur during a war that none of us want to know about," is frightening. Imagine if this was the case at the end of WWII?

Did you listen to the whole story?

I apologize for my sarcasm. However, I have a strong belief that there are many things which occur during a war that none of us want to know about, and in the light of day, seem horrific.

I was previously familiar with Blackwater, and I expected a private mercenary service to flourish in the Iraqi war, given the large job ahead. I don't think Blackwater is making widescale attacks, but I am not surprised they have traded gunfire in their "protective" services.

Frankly, when I see the NPR headline is "Blackwater USA is a secret army based in North Carolina with a sole owner: Erik Prince, a radical right-wing Christian multimillionaire.", I am going to knee-jerk, just in the opposite direction.

 

[$tinkle]

terri gross should not cover anything you can't sip darjeeling blend to.

 

[Kihaji]

Every soldier who gets paid is a mercenary, hell when I was in the Army I put that as my occupation.

 

[stosh]

Every soldier who gets paid is a mercenary, hell when I was in the Army I put that as my occupation.

ha, true!
Thing is you could be held responsible for your actions and there was a chain of command.

 

[$tinkle]

ha, true!
Thing is you could be held responsible for your actions and there was a chain of command.

and according to the "interview" (see? i listened and recalled), this CoC may include a blackwater contractor. he might get one of these on his next eval:

 

[stosh]

and according to the "interview" (see? i listened and recalled), this CoC may include a blackwater contractor. he might get one of these on his next eval:

Yeah that was pretty interesting.
Are you saying shame on the soldier?


BTW I'm glad you listened. Did you catch the part about Bush giving preferential treatment to the southern section of the Sudan because they are Christians?

 

[MikeD]

Unless something's changed, I was pretty sure contractors were going to begin being held to the UCMJ. Quick Google search on the topic yielded:

Over the last few years, tales of private military contractors run amuck in Iraq -- from the CACI interrogators at Abu Ghraib to the Aegis company's Elvis-themed internet "trophy video" —- have continually popped up in the headlines. Unfortunately, when it came to actually doing something about these episodes of Outsourcing Gone Wild, Hollywood took more action than Washington. The TV series Law and Order punished fictional contractor crimes, while our courts ignored the actual ones. Leonardo Dicaprio acted in a movie featuring the private military industry, while our government enacted no actual policy on it. But those carefree days of military contractors romping across the hills and dales of the Iraqi countryside, without legal status or accountability, may be over. The Congress has struck back.
Amidst all the add-ins, pork spending, and excitement of the budget process, it has now come out that a tiny clause was slipped into the Pentagon's fiscal year 2007 budget legislation. The one sentence section (number 552 of a total 3510 sections) states that "Paragraph (10) of section 802(a) of title 10, United States Code (article 2(a) of the Uniform Code of Military Justice), is amended by striking `war' and inserting `declared war or a contingency operation'." The measure passed without much notice or any debate. And then, as they might sing on School House Rock, that bill became a law (P.L.109-364).

The addition of five little words to a massive US legal code that fills entire shelves at law libraries wouldn't normally matter for much. But with this change, contractors' 'get out of jail free' card may have been torn to shreds. Previously, contractors would only fall under the Uniform Code of Military Justice, better known as the court martial system, if Congress declared war. This is something that has not happened in over 65 years and out of sorts with the most likely operations in the 21st century. The result is that whenever our military officers came across episodes of suspected contractor crimes in missions like Bosnia, Kosovo, Iraq, or Afghanistan, they had no tools to resolve them. As long as Congress had not formally declared war, civilians -- even those working for the US armed forces, carrying out military missions in a conflict zone -- fell outside their jurisdiction. The military's relationship with the contractor was, well, merely contractual. At most, the local officer in charge could request to the employing firm that the individual be demoted or fired. If he thought a felony occurred, the officer might be able to report them on to civilian authorities.

Getting tattled on to the boss is certainly fine for some incidents. But, clearly, it's not how one deals with suspected crimes. And it's nowhere near the proper response to the amazing, awful stories that have made the headlines (the most recent being the contractors who sprung a former Iraqi government minister, imprisoned on corruption charges, from a Green Zone jail).
-----

That said, most Blackwater guys I've worked with were consumate professionals. (Not to deny some bad acts by some contractors from Blackwater and other contractor outfits...) Much moreso than some of the military guys assigned PSD duties these days...it's cooks, bakers, and candlestick makers doing the job, not SF and the like. And if you give Joe Snuffy some sunglasses, zero real PSD training, an armored suburban, and a semblance of authority from carting around a VIP, wierd stuff starts happening.

"Mercenary" is a pretty loaded term, but not exactly accurate, btw...these guys aren't paid to take offensive military action; they're paid to provide protection. Which, in Iraq, may involve shooting.

MD

 

[jimmydean]

One of the officers I worked with during Katrina served 14 months in Iraq as an Infantry 2LT, then 2 months after he returned home, he spent 8 months working for Blackwater in Iraq.

He was Ranger qualified (as any good Infantry officer is) and was unusually bright for Infantry as well. He had some awful stories about some of the guys he worked with when he was with Blackwater. There is no sense of team with the assignments. When stuff goes down, all hell breaks loose because there is no sense of unit or team.

Return fire is the first reaction and it doesn't matter who is in the way. It's a bad situation because these guys are ONLY doing it for the money and don't care who may get harmed as long as they make it home with a paycheck.

 

[$tinkle]

Yeah that was pretty interesting.
Are you saying shame on the soldier?

i'm saying there's plenty of shame to go around.

but moreover, jeremy scahill's "observations" demonstrates that he doesn't quite understand military culture & how our government is adapting to the asymmetry of fighting terrorists. he suggests there's overbilling of the government by blackwater (in new orleans operations) when their contractors "only" see 1/3 of the billed rate. this is quite common among many industries, including mine (i'm on a gov't contract as well). he also doesn't understand the concepts of classified access & "need-to-know" (he thinks just b/c henry waxman wants to see classified blackwater contracts but is refused, there is some grand bushCo conspiracy).

one thing that does suck is blackwater's countersuit against the estate of the 4 contractors killed in fallujah in 2004. there doesn't seem to be any way i'd justify that, other than avarice.

BTW I'm glad you listened. Did you catch the part about Bush giving preferential treatment to the southern section of the Sudan because they are Christians?

don't be fooled; bush is in bed w/ clooney (he's got to have his token hollywood puppet, and lt. dan & james woods are all booked up)

 

[stosh]

Unless something's changed, I was pretty sure contractors were going to begin being held to the UCMJ. Quick Google search on the topic yielded:

Over the last few years, tales of private military contractors run amuck in Iraq -- from the CACI interrogators at Abu Ghraib to the Aegis company's Elvis-themed internet "trophy video" —- have continually popped up in the headlines. Unfortunately, when it came to actually doing something about these episodes of Outsourcing Gone Wild, Hollywood took more action than Washington. The TV series Law and Order punished fictional contractor crimes, while our courts ignored the actual ones. Leonardo Dicaprio acted in a movie featuring the private military industry, while our government enacted no actual policy on it. But those carefree days of military contractors romping across the hills and dales of the Iraqi countryside, without legal status or accountability, may be over. The Congress has struck back.
Amidst all the add-ins, pork spending, and excitement of the budget process, it has now come out that a tiny clause was slipped into the Pentagon's fiscal year 2007 budget legislation. The one sentence section (number 552 of a total 3510 sections) states that "Paragraph (10) of section 802(a) of title 10, United States Code (article 2(a) of the Uniform Code of Military Justice), is amended by striking `war' and inserting `declared war or a contingency operation'." The measure passed without much notice or any debate. And then, as they might sing on School House Rock, that bill became a law (P.L.109-364).

The addition of five little words to a massive US legal code that fills entire shelves at law libraries wouldn't normally matter for much. But with this change, contractors' 'get out of jail free' card may have been torn to shreds. Previously, contractors would only fall under the Uniform Code of Military Justice, better known as the court martial system, if Congress declared war. This is something that has not happened in over 65 years and out of sorts with the most likely operations in the 21st century. The result is that whenever our military officers came across episodes of suspected contractor crimes in missions like Bosnia, Kosovo, Iraq, or Afghanistan, they had no tools to resolve them. As long as Congress had not formally declared war, civilians -- even those working for the US armed forces, carrying out military missions in a conflict zone -- fell outside their jurisdiction. The military's relationship with the contractor was, well, merely contractual. At most, the local officer in charge could request to the employing firm that the individual be demoted or fired. If he thought a felony occurred, the officer might be able to report them on to civilian authorities.

Getting tattled on to the boss is certainly fine for some incidents. But, clearly, it's not how one deals with suspected crimes. And it's nowhere near the proper response to the amazing, awful stories that have made the headlines (the most recent being the contractors who sprung a former Iraqi government minister, imprisoned on corruption charges, from a Green Zone jail).
-----

That said, most Blackwater guys I've worked with were consumate professionals. (Not to deny some bad acts by some contractors from Blackwater and other contractor outfits...) Much moreso than some of the military guys assigned PSD duties these days...it's cooks, bakers, and candlestick makers doing the job, not SF and the like. And if you give Joe Snuffy some sunglasses, zero real PSD training, an armored suburban, and a semblance of authority from carting around a VIP, wierd stuff starts happening.

"Mercenary" is a pretty loaded term, but not exactly accurate, btw...these guys aren't paid to take offensive military action; they're paid to provide protection. Which, in Iraq, may involve shooting.

MD

Thanks for the great info, but your acronyms and abbreviations are lost on me.

 

[MikeD]

UCMJ= military legal system. Contractors are now subject to it...the rest is insignificant.

 

[stosh]

i'm saying there's plenty of shame to go around.

but moreover, jeremy scahill's "observations" demonstrates that he doesn't quite understand military culture & how our government is adapting to the asymmetry of fighting terrorists. he suggests there's overbilling of the government by blackwater (in new orleans operations) when their contractors "only" see 1/3 of the billed rate. this is quite common among many industries, including mine (i'm on a gov't contract as well). he also doesn't understand the concepts of classified access & "need-to-know" (he thinks just b/c henry waxman wants to see classified blackwater contracts but is refused, there is some grand bushCo conspiracy).

one thing that does suck is blackwater's countersuit against the estate of the 4 contractors killed in fallujah in 2004. there doesn't seem to be any way i'd justify that, other than avarice.
don't be fooled; bush is in bed w/ clooney (he's got to have his token hollywood puppet, and lt. dan & james woods are all booked up)

Ha, some of Jeremy's points about money were kind of dumb in my opinion. My time is charged at 3 times what I get paid so I hear ya on that point.
He made a reference to "1/4 of a million dollars". I started thinking to myself wow a whole $250k thats like a door in BrianHCM's house.



Anyway I think Jeremy does raise some valid points though. IMO if Bush doesn't have the men/women in our military to run a war maybe he shouldn't just buy a war.

 

[sanjuro]

I can understand the hiring of out sourcing for some security details in Iraq. The thing that worries me is that they don't fall under any U.S. or military laws. The other thing that scares me is their work continues in the US. Personally the idea that you can say "things which occur during a war that none of us want to know about," is frightening. Imagine if this was the case at the end of WWII?

Did you listen to the whole story?

Why does everyone ask me if I listen/read the whole thing when I disagree with them? I listened to half, and I podcasted the whole thing so I can listen to it later.

Yes, they don't fall under military or US jurisidiction, and if I thought they were doing military actions, as opposed to the protective services Blackwater primarily performs, then they should be under US control.

As for the end of the WWII, we should discuss American and other Allied atrocities and war crimes during the 1940's. Could you point me to a link which does this?

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

i made a thread about this quite a while ago i think.
i saw a report on the news they were recruiting ex-soldiers in south america for 30-40 bucks a day (and nothing else) to work in iraq.

pretty disturbing actually.

 

[MikeD]

The South Americans are not being recruited as personal security detail personnel...they're recruited by the contracted provider for static security (guard booths/access control) at lots of different US sites. Mostly they're Peruvians, with some Chileans and Argentines. Generally, they're extremely good at their jobs, and they're employed, whereas at home, they would not be, or they'd be making less money. They are free to leave if they don't like it. And their jobs are fairly safe compared with PSD personnel or the military.

What's disturbing about the arrangement?

 

[Silver]

What's disturbing about the arrangement?

Off the top of my head? Security, in the first place. When you're paying a person from South America $40 a day and British and American ex soldiers are making 20 times that much, I wonder how much it would take to grease a few palms...

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

The South Americans are not being recruited as personal security detail personnel...they're recruited by the contracted provider for static security (guard booths/access control) at lots of different US sites. Mostly they're Peruvians, with some Chileans and Argentines. Generally, they're extremely good at their jobs, and they're employed, whereas at home, they would not be, or they'd be making less money. They are free to leave if they don't like it. And their jobs are fairly safe compared with PSD personnel or the military.

What's disturbing about the arrangement?

the few death ones, shipped back without clear death certificates, autopsies and other insignificant details.

 

[MikeD]

the few death ones, shipped back without clear death certificates, autopsies and other insignificant details.

Well, you didn't mention anything about that. But I doubt there's a clear authority to issue death certificates inside the IZ, and an autopsy is sort of beside the point if someone's been shot or killed by a VBIED... of course, if someone's died under less obvious circumstances, one might be warranted, but I don't know any cases of that happening...is there a news story or something you can show me?

 

[$tinkle]

how you going to do an autopsy on most of a body collected in a pillowcase?

 

[MikeD]

Off the top of my head? Security, in the first place. When you're paying a person from South America $40 a day and British and American ex soldiers are making 20 times that much, I wonder how much it would take to grease a few palms...

They're not doing remotely the same job, hence the pay disparity. They do work their asses off, however. They really are a very, very professional group.

But 'greasing a few palms' on the guard level isn't really a concern, the way the guards are set up. Redundancy is built-in.