Some of the rarer DH companies...
- Thread starter Electric_City
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I'm with you. I can't understand why you would add two more links and 6 more bearings. I hear lots of people raving about their Knolly frames but I can't get past that. I don't like the look of it or the idea of it.
so you never ridden one?
Thad - I don't even know where to start... I really hope that you are just trolling, because if you are not, you are a f*in idiot.
Any Al frame will be heat treated, as it is required to complete the welding process (curing if you will). The differences between similar (visually) frames is huge. A 5mm change in location to a main pivot can completely change how the suspension handles. See a non-DW DHR vs. Super 8 as an example of this. The S8 pedals like isht, has horrific brake stiffening, and a stupid high leverage ratio. The DHR is also a single pivot, but pedals far better, has less brake lock, and corners better based on the lack of wheelbase growth while turning.
I'm not an engineer and I know this. You have to be a f*in idiot to not understand these principles.
Any Al frame will be heat treated, as it is required to complete the welding process (curing if you will). The differences between similar (visually) frames is huge. A 5mm change in location to a main pivot can completely change how the suspension handles. See a non-DW DHR vs. Super 8 as an example of this. The S8 pedals like isht, has horrific brake stiffening, and a stupid high leverage ratio. The DHR is also a single pivot, but pedals far better, has less brake lock, and corners better based on the lack of wheelbase growth while turning.
I'm not an engineer and I know this. You have to be a f*in idiot to not understand these principles.
Guess i wasnt the only one : (
kashima-coated-internet-troll
That's my favourite so far
That's my favourite so far
Nope, haven't had a chance.
Same reason they did it in the first place, to get around the FSR/horst link patent.
Stoney, have you even used a welder before?
There are any types of aluminum alloys. Not all require heat treat. All benefit. The heat treatment procedures vary based on a lot variables. Max temp, quench, how many cycles, ETC. The fixturing is a HUGE part of it. The frame itself is going to expand and contract under the heat cycles. So is the fixture. The fixture needs to expand and contract at a similar rate as the frame, while holding everything straight. I'm probably not doing a very good job of explaining this.
Do you remember when Intenses took like two guys to reef on the swingarm to get pivot bolts in??? That was HEAT TREAT FIXTURING issue.
There are any types of aluminum alloys. Not all require heat treat. All benefit. The heat treatment procedures vary based on a lot variables. Max temp, quench, how many cycles, ETC. The fixturing is a HUGE part of it. The frame itself is going to expand and contract under the heat cycles. So is the fixture. The fixture needs to expand and contract at a similar rate as the frame, while holding everything straight. I'm probably not doing a very good job of explaining this.
Do you remember when Intenses took like two guys to reef on the swingarm to get pivot bolts in??? That was HEAT TREAT FIXTURING issue.
There are a ****load of variables:
materials used.
design of frame.
quality of welds.
heat treat.
finish.
marketing.
The design, the process, the materials are all equally important. In MY OPINION, the bigger factories have their PROCESSES waaaaaay more dialed, at a lower cost, than the little guys.
It's raining, I been starting ****. I still think $2400 for a single pivot is absurd, and that Santa Cruz would kill with an updated $1500 8" dh geo single pivot.
materials used.
design of frame.
quality of welds.
heat treat.
finish.
marketing.
The design, the process, the materials are all equally important. In MY OPINION, the bigger factories have their PROCESSES waaaaaay more dialed, at a lower cost, than the little guys.
It's raining, I been starting ****. I still think $2400 for a single pivot is absurd, and that Santa Cruz would kill with an updated $1500 8" dh geo single pivot.
for sure. the heckler is brilliant bang for the buck; there's no reason why they couldn't pull off what you're suggesting (apart from dh'ers general willingness to spend way more than they need to). a modern s8 would rock ass, and be more than enough bike for the majority of riders out there.
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if my piggybank was morbidly obese, this is certainly what i'd be doing.
did he elaborate? no interest? incapable with his current shop? glad i got to ride the thing, but similarly bummed in that it was a *really* great bike.
hunh? Isn't the horst link patent only for the placement of the chainstay link below the rear axle? I could be wrong but I was under the impression that it had nothing to do with how you drive the shock...which really is no different on the Knolly than any other variation of horst link other than the additional links.
Knolly has a horst link. They paid to use patent on their first bikes. The reason they have the redundant linkage is so they could have a full length seat tube.
Their first bike: the V-Tach, was a 7" travel "shore bike", intended to be pedalled up logging roads, and shred to slow, tech gnar down. Full length seat tube was a "must have"
I think they just stick with it out of inertia.
The official reasoning they give, is that the lower link controls the wheelpath. Upperlink tailors the shock rate. Two links allows them to fine tune the wheelpath and leverage rates they want, with less compromise.
I think you can get a perfectly good wheelpath AND shock rate with one link, and it's lighter, simpler, cheaper.
Their first bike: the V-Tach, was a 7" travel "shore bike", intended to be pedalled up logging roads, and shred to slow, tech gnar down. Full length seat tube was a "must have"
I think they just stick with it out of inertia.
The official reasoning they give, is that the lower link controls the wheelpath. Upperlink tailors the shock rate. Two links allows them to fine tune the wheelpath and leverage rates they want, with less compromise.
I think you can get a perfectly good wheelpath AND shock rate with one link, and it's lighter, simpler, cheaper.
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Huh, I thought since Knolly is a Canadia company, they would not have to comply with the Horst patent. If memory serves, I thought some of the old Wilsons were horst link in Canadia, but Kona-bar in other markets.
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They'd have to comply to sell them in the States as long as the patent remained in effect.
Yeah I get that, but I didn't think Knolly sold bikes in the 'Murika (or they didn't for a long time previously). As per the usual tho, my theories are based on little or no fact, which is also why I am a Ridemonkey MVP.
EDIT - just checked, they only have about 35 or so dealers in the US. I'm awesome.
In regards to the 2 links, is that basically what Spesh is claiming to do with their extra seat stays?
EDIT - just checked, they only have about 35 or so dealers in the US. I'm awesome.
In regards to the 2 links, is that basically what Spesh is claiming to do with their extra seat stays?
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Ya, I've read their reasoning, but I agree with you. With a rocker link a la kona, trek, norco etc... you can control the wheelpath, shock rate and get a full length seat tube all without having the redundant links.
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Whoa.You're thinking of Karpiel
Epic archived thread BTW: http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/f19/karpiel-update-iast-100433/
Genuine issues with karpiel from realz peoplez, brian defending the brand, dhtahoe taking things way too far for public consumption, some dude from croatia adamantly defending teh huxxors via testicular fortitude.........full package!!
Nope.
This suspension system was designed originally for Noel's personal bike - with NO intentions of starting a company. The originals were for him, and he made a few for friends so they would quit pestering him. It was later after repeated frame requests from others that he first considered starting the company that bears his nickname.
Edit: Also from what I remember (conversation was back in 06 so...) the original idea as was stated was to get around the seatpost etc.
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Hahhaha! I can't wait to dig into the thread link after work! On a related note, it always suprises me what threads turn into a complete sh!tshow.You're thinking of Karpiel
Epic archived thread BTW: http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/f19/karpiel-update-iast-100433/
My vote easily goes to Guerrilla Gravity. It's light for an alloy frame, simple, and really well designed. You can tell that every aspect of the frame was carefully thought out with with the goals of simplicity, durability, light weight, good geo, and good shock rate. If I wasn't on a V10.5 I'd buy one in a heartbeat. Another cool thing about the company is they can offer any build you want and even leave out particular parts if you already have a saddle, front wheel, whatever. Customization and cost savings!
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You're describing Matt from Guerilla Gravity. You'll be a match made in heaven.
It is, but Knolly came up with a huge BS patent for their "system", so essentially they could use the horst link and not have to pay Specialized.
This. Having shared a lift with him while he talked about his bikes, I concur.
When I first saw a knolly 5 year ago I thought it looked ugly and I had no interest in them. 2 years later I picked up a delirium which was and still is a great free ride bike, (got it slightly used and at a bargain). I was so impressed with the delirium I picked up a podium a year later. Both bikes perform excellent with little to no maintenance. No pivot issues whatsoever. I have friends that ride glorys and furys, they always seem to be messing with their pivots. My knolly's have proven in my experience to be very reliable and awesome handling bikes.
Noel explaining knolly:
4x4 linkage in action: Knolly Podium Review - Suspension Actuation Video on Vimeo
Noel explaining knolly:
4x4 linkage in action: Knolly Podium Review - Suspension Actuation Video on Vimeo
no he did not, but i was not very insistent, and it has been over two years ago can't ride a dh bike at the moment anyway because of my broken hands.
iv been thinking.. how many frames have you seen that the WELD actually breaks.. iv seen next to none
now seeing tubing ( in the middle of a downtube or seat-tube ) sheer in half; i would say that would be cause to a "sh*tty batch" of aluminum ( cheap, impure )
for example
now the cracks that alot of people see like this
that are very close to/next to the weld is the HAZ (heat affected zone ),which makes heat treatment so incredibly crucial
the stresses that are created with welding heat need to be released with heat treatment
i will never go down a trail/mountain on a quenched or non heat treated mountain bike
now seeing tubing ( in the middle of a downtube or seat-tube ) sheer in half; i would say that would be cause to a "sh*tty batch" of aluminum ( cheap, impure )
for example
now the cracks that alot of people see like this
that are very close to/next to the weld is the HAZ (heat affected zone ),which makes heat treatment so incredibly crucial
the stresses that are created with welding heat need to be released with heat treatment
i will never go down a trail/mountain on a quenched or non heat treated mountain bike
capitalism? those corsairs were poorly executed and over hyped. They were a neat design, but it's like they put them out there and high tailed it to mexico...
the superco was just a disappointment.
Ever had good ride time on 'em?
^^^This. My Corsair Marque was a great riding and pedaling bike, for the relatively short time it was able to be ridden. I think it was shelved waiting on a new front tri (exploded on the second ride) and new pivot bolt (broke fter a few months) for nearly half the time. HAB actually fabbed me up a steel replacement bolt that I ended up selling with the frame. Several isues, and all over them handled poorly by the company. At least mine seemed to be aligned properly - read quite a few reports of people getting frames so bad they couldn't even be ridden without destroying bearings or shocks.
Their idler/chain tunnel setup was a neat idea, but very poorly implemented.
I'd love to see something similar from one of the larger companies. Lighter, more durable, and without so many QC issues.
Ha, I forgot about that. It was weird as hell. Shoulder bolt with odd dimensions and a strange thread pitch (might even have been left hand thread?). Dumb.
Exactly, everyone who had ridden the bikes knows what i'm talking about. It really is a shame the designs fell through the floor boards. The problems that needed to be fixed were seriously minor flaws that required the least bit of tweaking in a ver.2 design, but they were there and they screwed everything up. My friend is still on my old Maelstrom and loving it, and my Crown is ripping it up problem free.
In any case, believe you me, money ALWAYS gets in the way of good ideas..
the bike, or the fact it never hit production?
the latter. the fact that people are willing to contact him to custom make a frame for them, at some ridiculous premium, which he refuses to do, is more pride than anything else. If you could do a run of 4 frames and sell them at 5gs a piece, which you could easily do in today's market, you can find the time...unless you don't want to. 20g to make 4 copies of a prototype you already have? Hell, if people are willing to pay 3600 for a "cookie cutter" aluminum frame, then 5gs for a custom ox platinum is a deal...unless the capability/tooling/stuff is no longer there....but he's still selling jumper frames.
Or, the amount of work to get all the right tubing and parts and get it made would have him making 10 dollars an hour on something that's a pain in the ass, instead of doing what he likes to do in making DJ frames for a much higher and easier returns that allows for other projects. He obviously did a cost benefit analysis and decided it wasn't worth it to make them, whether for personal reasons, not wanting to support them in the future should something go wrong, or it just wasn't worth it/he couldn't make enough money off them. Whatever the reasons, its not some grave personal failing that he doesn't want to do it, and he's not obligated to.
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