something is wrong... a religious leader is making sense
- Thread starter jonKranked
- Start date
Wow, good story.
This is so messed up on so many levels. I could rant and rave several paragraphs here but I know I'm preaching to the choir. As a Christian it's very frustrating to me to see Christanity stereotyped and marginalized by the Religious Right.
At the same time, you're aware of that totally crazy last book in the Bible, right?
Let's not pretend that the difference between the moderates and the extremists is really that far apart...
It is crazy, but there are also some equally if not more crazy interpretations of said book. If one (such as myself) reads it as a description of events that happened (vs. will happen) and understanding the style of writing the author used. With books like Genesis, Daniel, and the book you reference, this kind of research is, IMO, vital to getting at the core of the authors message, instead of taking every little jot and tittle literally.
While very weird indeed I don't wring my hands about getting a UPC code tattooed on my hand when I read that book.
I would argue we ( me being a moderate and them being the crazy religious right) are oceans apart, and might respectfully suggest your expriences have caused you to paint us all with a fairly broad crazy brush.
When you get right down to it, one of your core beliefs is that I'm going to be on fire for eternity, right?I would argue we ( me being a moderate and them being the crazy religious right) are oceans apart, and might respectfully suggest your expriences have caused you to paint us all with a fairly broad crazy brush.
I understand that's a reductionist way of looking at it, and that there is a large difference between letting God burn me forever and actively helping me get to hell so God can burn me forever, but from a philosophical point of view the gap between them isn't as far as you'd like to think, and is sadly too often bridged with a holy text.
And, right on cue:
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2009/10/how-the-bible-can-be-used-for-violence.html#more
Watch the video...
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2009/10/how-the-bible-can-be-used-for-violence.html#more
Watch the video...
A typical evangelical Christian would agree with your statement about hell. The problem is two fold: first, the culture that Jesus was a part of understood everyone would participate in the afterlife, even Gentile non-believers. Ask a rabbi today and he'll tell you "hell" is standing before God in eternity and having the events of your life presented to you, the "hell" is the embarassment if you will of the times you for arguments sake didn't do the right thing. Second, out of the Gospels Jesus only mentions a literal person in a literal hell once. The other instances of His use of hell is to describe a reality here on earth now (the holocaust would be a good example). The person Jesus refers to in hell (Luke 16) is there because he failed to take care of those in need when he had the power, not because he didn't believe Jesus was the Messiah or anything like that.
One has to make a bit of a "jump" with the text and fill in their own blanks to automatically beleive that all non-believers are hell bound, or if there is even a literal hell.
So in short, no that's not one of my core beliefs. As I stated earlier, I think you have me confused with say a Baptist.........LOL.
Andyman, do you believe Jesus was white, black, or velociraptor?
Triceretops!!!
Yeah, but that Baptist would probably call you either Jew lover or a Unitarian based on your last post
I've been called worse by them.......hence I am no longer part of their fold.
You tease...stop showing some ankle, pull up the dress and let me know what they called you!
Good answer.
For the record, I was raised Catholic, and have since recovered. I actually read a pretty significant portion of the Bible. One of the problems I see with those who constantly profess their religion, they get too focused on who Jesus was. What they should be focusing on is what he/she/dinosaur did and how he (or her, or raptor, or triceratops, or stegasaurus) lived.
If you must here you go boys................
I was called a heretic at one point. Then when my marriage fell apart, thanks in no small part to the church, when my wife and I separated I was told that God turned His back on me and would only accept me if I got back together with my wife. When I asked who gave you (the pastor at our church) the authority to determine what was forgivable and what wasn't and what business was it of his to stick his nose into my marriage (and where Jesus / Paul instruct pastors to be marriage counselors) he told me to never set foot in his church again.
That was 2.5 years ago, and even today when I see these people out in public they openly rebuke me.
So needless to say evangelical Christianity can kiss my a$$.
I couldn't agree more, in the 1st century that's what it meant to be a disciple of a rabbi........a concept Christianity today in some big circles has completely lost.
Nothing proves straight like this.
Damn true has been lifting weights it seems.
Damn true has been lifting weights it seems.
because you got out....they are jealous.
i bet the pastor takes large quantities of cock in the ass anyway.
That's no so bad. You pointed out that Jesus was a heretic, I suppose?
edit: I should point out "not so bad" from my point of view. From your point of view at the time, I can understand how it was painful.
I'm sorry, just the thought of you walking down the street and having someone point at you while screaming "UNCLEAN, UNCLEAN!!!" is hilarious...
I really hope his other arm has Leviticus 19:19Nothing proves straight like this.
Damn true has been lifting weights it seems.
LOL..........and then me giving them the finger!!!!! LOLI'm sorry, just the thought of you walking down the street and having someone point at you while screaming "UNCLEAN, UNCLEAN!!!" is hilarious...
The sad thing is these supposed followers of Jesus have gone out of their way (most recent was a few weeks ago) when we've been out to eat to tell myself and my wife and our collective kids that we are going to hell. Who the f*ck tells a 5 year old boy he's going to hell because his mom and dad got a divorce? It's a sad sad existence carrying that much hate and bitterness, I'm just glad I got out of that mess.
No it wasn't that bad, I kind of wore it as a badge of honor. The whole deal about how God had turned His back on me when my ex and I separated was unbelievable, the pastor was a good friend of mine too. My best friend at the time who I taught / preached with literally told me that he hated me, and made no bones about that fact when people asked him about me.....whether in church or not. All the while these jacka$$'s are teaching folks about God's love and how He's forgiving.
Sorry for the rants / therapy session...........I'm done I promise........
Or the passages about not eating shell fish.....I'm sure this turd eats shrimp and bacon.
(background: was raised in a moderately liberal Northern Baptist church. For the most part they try to avoid subjects like abortion, politics, gay marriage or evolution)
I never quite got the aspect of hell. I mean, you were supposed to follow Jesus due to your love and devotion to him. From the very beginning it's all been about free choice, since if he were to simply compel you, your devotion would be worthless. God planted the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil so as to give Adam and Eve a choice as to whether to obey him or not (imagine how much different we'd be if he just hadn't put that stupid tree there).
So after all of this "follow me because you want to..." (the carrot), somehow there was inserted the whole "...but if you don't, you're going to SUFFER FOR ALL ETERNITY!!" (the stick)
Can you just imagine how the story of "fishers of men" would have gone, if instead of what's written Jesus had said "Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men... and if you don't, you'll be cast into the fiery pits of hell where there will be crying and wailing and gnashing of teeth, and you will beg on your hands and knees for just one drop of water." It kind of takes away that whole free choice thing, and following him because of their devotion to him.
Yes, he talked about hell being for sinners and evildoers, but did he really equate not following him with eternal damnation... I'm wondering if something was lost in the translation somewhere.
To me, hell is Cleveland.
Lev 19:28...says not to cut yourself or "put marks on your body". I bet he has a PhD in cherry picking.
Saddened to read about your turmoil with your family life and the retard gallery. Seems that things are looking up though.
Andy, next time one of those punters gives you a hard time, just remind them "judge not lest ye be judged".
That's what makes life life, the good parts and the bad parts. I've certainly learned from that situation and hopefully grown from it. Hate to sound like "one of those Christians" but I am truly blessed, married a wonderful woman and in addition to having a son, I now have two beautiful daughters.
That's a great way to put that........
Yeah He did, but alot of those passages the term for hell is the concept of a present reality vs. an eternal destination. So when people choose to live that way they are living in a hell on earth.
I think ALOT has been lost in translation by some rather large segments of Christianity, esspecially evangelical Christianity.
Andy needs to go godless so he never has to put up those morons again.
Godless or not, those morons would still be up my a$$. They think if they pray for me enough I'll come to my senses and go back to my old life.
I've dealt with their kind before.
Myself, I'm an atheist, but I dated a girl who was started attending an evangelical Baptist church.
In fact, one of her church friends told her she was "praying" that we would split up, so that I could then be saved and she would no longer be "sinning".
I attended a few services with her...it was interesting. But they said the same thing, if they pray enough for me, it would change my mind.
You live in Colorado Springs too huh?
LOL.........no worse (as far as religious Right goes) Little Rock Arkansas.
Edit: no maybe Tulsa is worse........
I think the concept of hell, insofar as it means the standard "place where you are sent to physically (or otherwise) suffer for all eternity," is a tool for the weak-minded and cold-hearted so they can feel superior to others and force their beliefs on them. I read this tonight and thought it appropriate:
"there are great difficulties in thinking that the finite issue of redemption is such that some thereby obtain the highest bliss, while others (on the ordinary view, indeed, the majority of the human race) are lost in irrevocable misery. We ought not to retain such an idea without decisive testimony to the fact that it was to this that Christ Himself looked forward; and such testimony is wholly lacking. Hence we ought to at least admit equal rights of the milder view...namely that through the power of redemption there will one day be a universal restoration of all souls."
This is a more conservative view than my own, but considerably less harsh than what many believe today...even though it was written almost 200 years ago...and what it expresses is a thought that goes back at least 1700 years. I find it crazy that the "standard" belief in hell is so prominent given how little sense it makes and how much intellectual energy has been expended against it.
Andy, I dig your story and admire your ability to keep your faith in the midst of bunch of self righteous a$$holes trying to bring you down.
Whoever said judge not lest ye be judged was spot on...
Whoever said judge not lest ye be judged was spot on...