[CreeP]

-why the combo of 725 and 853? or rather why isn't it all one or the other?

-what's the BBheight you're going for?

-would you consider making a version available without the seatube extension (i'm short)

oh and i heard/read that the protos were built by IF, which obviously made it easy for reynolds to let you use the higher spec tubing, but since you won't be using IF for the series production (or so i hear) who are you going to be pawning the manufacturing off on?

 

[dhmtbj]

This was posted by dave weagle shortly after interbike, should answer some or all of your questions. Also, not sure if its mentioned in here but I think they are planning to have two different sizes of the sovereign. Hope this helps.

Jay

Hey Guys,

Thanks a lot for the pics and kind words. Although this frame is not as visually striking as the Imperial frame, there is a lot more going on than first meets the eye. There is a press release that will be sent out next week, but I'm going to give you guys the scoop here first.

The Sovereign frame was designed primarily as a street/ trail frame (notice the graphics). Its development began just before the Interbike 2001 tradeshow, and it took almost 1.5 years for us to get its custom butted/ sized Reynolds 853 tube set completed. We wanted something that a rider could take on a day-long seated XC ride, yet still handle the largest drops and most technical ramp action. Handling had to be on par with the Imperial frame, so we laid out the bike's geometry to be quick but balanced, a combination that we feel we have perfected, but eludes many others. The frame had to be easily single speedable, yet still offer the security and convenience of a vertical dropout.

The Sovereign uses a geometry set that we first tested with our Alpha prototype Imperial frames in 2001. Because we wanted this frame to do double duty as a high strength trail and park bike (with less of an emphasis on Mountain X, DH), the head angle reverts back to 69 degrees with a 5-inch fork, and it features the Imperial's 13 inch bb height. With this layout, X-ups and bar spins are simple, and front toe friendly. Top tube length is a little longer than the Imperial at 23.1. Wheelbase remains pegged around 41 inches. Like the Imperial, the seat post is actually very slightly off-center of the BB to attain desired flex characteristics in the rear end of the bike.

The Sovereign displays several innovative geometry features that deserve special mention.

First, is its 16.5 inch long seat tube. FEA testing consistently showed us that a 13.5 inch frame is not capable of supporting a full length raised seat post enough to prevent breakage and possible rider injury. After much computer aided analysis, we found that increasing seat tube length and seat post diameter could allow riders to run their seat height at full length.

Second is its super short chainstay length capability. The Sovereign frame can run a 26X2.35 tire at a minimum chainstay length of 15.5 inches. With this combination, there is plenty of mud clearance as well. For comparison, most other steel frames on the market struggle to attain a 15.75 minimum chainstay with a 24 inch wheel. This unique and highly desirable feature is a function of our exclusive offset asymmetrical monostay construction. A picture is worth a thousand words, so Ill see what I can do in that respect.

The third geometry feature that makes this bike special is its ability to run 26 inch or 24 inch rear wheels without changing frame geometry. The rear chainstays and dropouts were designed to allow a 24 inch specific rear dropout that drops the rear axle center by ~1 inch to compensate for the 24 inch rear wheel.

The double-X rated dropout system is a combination of the Imperial's X-rated system, and a sliding dropout. The reason for this unique setup may not be immediately apparent to most, but makes a lot of sense when it is explained. With that being said, here's the explanation! Because this is a multi-duty frame, it needs to be versatile. Street riders prefer short chainstay lengths, and sometimes even a single-speed setup. Almost all trail riders prefer longer chainstay lengths and derailleurs. In order to accommodate this, some sort of chainstay length adjustment is necessary. The sovereign frame features 32mm of horizontal chainstay adjustment (15.5 in to 16.76 in). This adjustment is broken down into two 16mm pieces. The reality is that by using a shorter adjustment slot, we built a lighter and stronger rear dropout system than any that we have tested previously. We have devised and tested other ways of accomplishing this goal, just none as reliable, strong, versatile, and lightweight as what is presented on this frame.

Material: One of the things that makes this frame incredibly special is its Reynolds 853/725 air-hardening tube set. For those who are not familiar with Reynolds, you can view information about them at www.reynoldsusa.com. Reynolds steel tubing is considered by many to be the highest quality in the world. All of the tubing is pierced and butted from solid billet instead of rolled and welded from sheet stock like some other tubing. Over the last 1.5 years, we have worked closely with the engineers at Reynolds to develop a high strength butted tube set that could be used for our application. This was a groundbreaking project for Evil and Reynolds at the same time. Over the last 100 years, their tube sets have been refined over and over. Their frames have won numerous road titles around the world. Never before though, had they built a tube set as strong as what we needed for our frame. Through our (Evil's) high level of analysis, we were able to develop a specification for this tube set. Reynolds manufactured them to exacting precision, and the result is the incredibly strong, yet 5.2 lb light Sovereign frameset. This custom tube set makes allowed us to build a frame with incredible strength to weight ratio compared to normal 4130 and other types of formed steel tubing. Strength to weight ratio should be close to the Imperial frame, which right now is at the same level as some top road and XC hardtail frames. As far as our analysis has shown, at this point, theres no other frame in the agressive market with this level of structural refinement. (not to say tht means the bikes can't be broken, just that these bikes are "special" in that they posess unusually high strength to weight ratios) Over the next 4 months, we plan to ride as hard as we can to test these prototype frames. With any luck we will learn some things and apply what we learn to the production models. I have a few ideas already. Look for the frames at your local skate parks (like Rye) and on the trails of Lynn Woods and Vietnam. A summer release is planned.

Thanks guys, hope this answers your questions.

Dave

 

[RD]

Both Sovereigns ride very nicely. I was mighty impressed, especially after taking some time to tweak with both set-ups quite a bit.

 

[CreeP]

ok 13"bb, but it doesn't answer the other q's

good to know it rides nice but i kind of expected that.

 

[dhmtbj]

Originally posted by CreeP
ok 13"bb, but it doesn't answer the other q's

good to know it rides nice but i kind of expected that.

It discusses why they combined the metals, from reading it I took away that they did this to achieve high strength and fairly low weight.

how tall are you? will the amount of seat tube above the top tube really be too much for you? standover is probably very good with the bike. I'd uess that it is equal to the standover of a normal 13-15 inch frame. Dave also discusses why the seat tube extends the way it does. The bike is meant for trailriding, DJing and street. Trailriding often requires a post with a decent amount of height so as to allow for proper leg extension for seated climbing. To answer your specific question though, as I said i think they are planning on making two different sizes. Maybe the smaller won't have the extension, though I doubt it because of the intended use of the frame.

I'd recommend giving evil a call about it, they are a great group of guys and I'm sure they would be able to tell you all you seek to know.

 

[endtroducing]

I know it's quite common for frames to be built with an 853 front triangle, only to use a different tubeset for the rear. The reasoning as i've heard it is because 853 can't be cold-set (no bending after the welding/hardening) so initial alignment has to be perfect. Indy Fab themselves use different alloys than 853 for their stays, but my guess is this a perfomance rather than convenience/cost-cutting issue.

 

[dw]

Ill take my best shot at giving you some good answers here. There is a new Evil site going up this week I hope, so there will be a lot of info on the prototypes up there. The production bikes are actually quite an improvement (IMO at least) over the prototypes, I hope you guys will be psyched when you see some of the new features. Trying to keep them secret for now, but its tough!

Originally posted by CreeP
-why the combo of 725 and 853? or rather why isn't it all one or the other?

I would have loved to go all 853, but the reality of the situation is that our tubing size and manipulation goals are beyond what is capable using the 853 alloy. The 725 alloy allowed us to meet our agressive strength, stiffness, and weight goals, and is a good match to the 853 front end. 725 is about 2X stronger than standard 4130, so its no slouch!

-what's the BBheight you're going for?

It varies with fork choice, we use ergonomic modeling that is based on human factors and rider input to determine geometry. With a 5 inch fork it works out to around 13 inches.

-would you consider making a version available without the seatube extension (i'm short)

Measure up your current bike, BB center to where your seat post starts to get big (where it cant be pushed any further into the frame) and see how high you run your seat. If you run 3" or more of extension on your 13 inch frame, then this frame will fit you perfect. You just wont run any seatpost extension fully slammed, but you will have a stronger and stiffer bike all around.

oh and i heard/read that the protos were built by IF, which obviously made it easy for reynolds to let you use the higher spec tubing, but since you won't be using IF for the series production (or so i hear) who are you going to be pawning the manufacturing off on?

Protos were built by Yours Truly and Tyler Evans, at IF. For production, we have some surprises on that end, but all I can say for now is that they will be made in the good ol' USA.

Hope this helps and thanks for the interest!

Dave

 

[indieboy]

Originally posted by dw



Protos were built by Yours Truly and Tyler Evans, at IF. For production, we have some surprises on that end, but all I can say for now is that they will be made in the good ol' USA.

Hope this helps and thanks for the interest!

Dave

Tyler is the fvcking man!!!

 

[Macrider]

Originally posted by dw
Ill take my best shot at giving you some good answers here. There is a new Evil site going up this week I hope, so there will be a lot of info on the prototypes up there. The production bikes are actually quite an improvement (IMO at least) over the prototypes, I hope you guys will be psyched when you see some of the new features. Trying to keep them secret for now, but its tough!

Dave, I hope my name is somewhere near the top of your list for a production model, youv'e got me so hyped up on this frame - and everytime I read more about it or see another pic, I'm looking for the address for where to send my hard-earned cash!

I think my Sovereign is going to be the pimpest ss dj at my local jump spot, hands down!

 

[CreeP]

well i guess that's the answer i expected.

 

[Brian Peterson]

Dammit Dave.... Yet another option for a new hardtail... And I really liked the one I saw at the show...

Brian

 

[CreeP]

well now that the site's updated:

the geometry figures are with 26/26" wheels yes?

That chainstay yoke is freakin crazy looking!
Sculpted super alloy headtube? a man after my own heart!

but seriously i'd like the ability to put my seat down further, i find the seat still gets in the way too much on a 16" bike. Maybe on the d.o.c? What is the geometry on the doc going to be like? at first blush it looks very minuteman.


and may i suggest for colours; a raw/bead-blasted(like the latest Gimp) and stealth black.

 

[dw]

Originally posted by CreeP
well now that the site's updated:

the geometry figures are with 26/26" wheels yes?

That chainstay yoke is freakin crazy looking!
Sculpted super alloy headtube? a man after my own heart!

but seriously i'd like the ability to put my seat down further, i find the seat still gets in the way too much on a 16" bike. Maybe on the d.o.c? What is the geometry on the doc going to be like? at first blush it looks very minuteman.


and may i suggest for colours; a raw/bead-blasted(like the latest Gimp) and stealth black.

Yo man,

can you do me a favor and measure your seat height for me? Just out of curiosity.

For the DOC, the seat tube is 15" long. It has similar standover to the Imperial. The geometry os so far off from a minuteman, its crazy! Chris has been on an Imperial now for a couple months, and the geometry that we developed for his bike, his take on what his ideal geometry is, is very close to the Imperial, with some tweaks for fork heights etc...

Not sure about colors yet, but I will pass your suggestions onto the crew!

Thanks!

dw

 

[ssaddict]

Originally posted by CreeP

but seriously i'd like the ability to put my seat down further, i find the seat still gets in the way too much on a 16" bike. Maybe on the d.o.c?

How tall are you? I really don't see a need to get it any further down, hell even my gf doesn't and she's 5'2".

I've been riding the sliver Sovereign for a few weeks and love it. Granted I'm 6'2" and probably don't do the same type of riding your looking to do though. But because you can get behind it so easily I really have felt no need to get it much lower.

 

[CreeP]

Originally posted by dw
Yo man,

can you do me a favor and measure your seat height for me? Just out of curiosity.

happy to oblige: the top of my seat is 20" from the center of the bb. on a 17" kona, which is as low as it will go with the post i've got even though i cut an inch off of the seat tube.

if i could get the top of the seat down to like 17.5-18" i guess i'd be happy. it's not just about clearance in front of, and ability to get behind, the seat for me.

and yes i'm noticeably taller than your girlfriend, at 5'9"