[Transcend]

Don't worry Transcend probably hasn't either.

I've ridden them, as well as Risse's. They both suck equally.

I have been around this industry an awful long time and have probably ridden just about every fork/shock out there at one point or another. I have also worked for 2 different suspension companies. I know what I am talking about when it comes to suspension. So before you open your mouth to make stupid comments, you should probably know what you are talking about.

There is absolutely no point in spending more money on a crap fork when you can get great products from RockShox, Fox, Marzocchi etc at much lower prices and with better customer service.

 

[zedro]

Well to be fair, you can't patent something and then sue the original manufactuer of this. They can claim prior art and be exempt from it, or completely in validate your patent. There has to be SOMETHING new about the patent or it won't fly.

the problem is patent submissions are so damn retarded i go nuts everytime i read one (look up GT's submissions on their tranny bike, or ANYTHING Ellsworth has written....makes me want to tear my brain out). It can be so vague in what constitutes new tech or a basic ripoff, so in the meantime you could potentially have a legitimate case against the big S yet be completly powerless to afford the fight. You know, the reason why prisons are full of certain 'types'....

 

[Transcend]

the problem is patent submissions are so damn retarded i go nuts everytime i read one (look up GT's submissions on their tranny bike, or ANYTHING Ellsworth has written....makes me want to tear my brain out). It can be so vague in what constitutes new tech or a basic ripoff, so in the meantime you could potentially have a legitimate case against the big S yet be completly powerless to afford the fight. You know, the reason why prisons are full of certain 'types'....

Look at Apple's patents if you want vague. Or completely opposite, look at Honda's - they are so filled with mumbo jumbo that they make zero sense...and that is the idea.

Of course when it comes down to it, if you need to fight or roll over, most will choose to fight if losing means saying goodbye to your livelyhood.

 

[ekozy39]

I've ridden them, as well as Risse's. They both suck equally.

I have been around this industry an awful long time and have probably ridden just about every fork/shock out there at one point or another. I have also worked for 2 different suspension companies. I know what I am talking about when it comes to suspension. So before you open your mouth to make stupid comments, you should probably know what you are talking about.

There is absolutely no point in spending more money on a crap fork when you can get great products from RockShox, Fox, Marzocchi etc at much lower prices and with better customer service.

Cool, so that's your opinion. But is that a reason to be glad to see a company go bankrupt?

 

[Transcend]

Cool, so that's your opinion. But is that a reason to be glad to see a company go bankrupt?

Sure, it is my opinion that the damping didn't work and they blew oil all over their lowers. It's also my opinion that they bent and twisted pretty easily.

Also, you need reading comprehension courses.

 

[ekozy39]

Sure, it is my opinion that the damping didn't work and they blew oil all over their lowers. It's also my opinion that they bent and twisted pretty easily.

I, as many others I'm sure have, blown seals/cartidges on RS/Marz forks and I have seen them with cracked/broken parts, does that mean they suck? Things break and stuff happens, get over yourself.

Also, you need reading comprehension courses.

haha. Now you feel the need to try and attack my intelligence?

 

[Transcend]

I, as many others I'm sure have, blown seals/cartidges on RS/Marz forks and I have seen them with cracked/broken parts, does that mean they suck? Things break and stuff happens, get over yourself.


haha. Now you feel the need to try and attack my intelligence?

Every single stratos out there constantly spewed oil from it's seals. Even owners who were happy with their forks will tell you this. Things break sure, things from stratos came broken. It wasn't an occasional thing, it was the norm.

Seriously man, if you want to delude yourself into thinking they were good products, then go ahead. You aren't fooling anyone but yourself.

You clearly have no idea what you are talking about, but thanks for dropping by.

 

[ekozy39]

Every single stratos out there constantly spewed oil from it's seals. even owners who were happy with their forks will tell you this.

Seriously man, if you want to delude yourself into thinking they were good products, then go ahead. You aren't fooling anyone but yourself.

Also, I don't feel the need for anything. You shoudl probably go back and read the thread again because you clearly have not understood a word anyone is saying if you think people said it's cool they went bankrupt.

I didn't say people said it was cool, I said you seemed happy to see them go. I also never said that they were great products, did I? I just found it interesting that you were more than willing to say they sucked and good riddance.

 

[ekozy39]

You clearly have no idea what you are talking about, but thanks for dropping by.

Yes, clearly I don't. I guess unless I have 8,500+ posts I can't possibly know what you know.

 

[wydopen]

I've ridden them, as well as Risse's. They both suck equally.

the stratos does suck but not as bad as risse

 

[Transcend]

the stratos does suck but not as bad as rissie

Just depends on the model!

 

[wydopen]

my s8 was alright before i knew better...the newer seals they came out with actually worked...but that fork was about 6 feet long...a leading axle would have made a big difference

 

[Transcend]

my s8 was alright before i knew better...the newer seals they came out with actually worked...but that fork was about 6 feet long...a leading axle would have made a big difference

Before you knew better being the key part. Those boutique manufacturer forks, for the most part, were huge piles of expensive crap.

 

[wood-dog]

internernal cabel route, fork stops, the mountain cycle battery? 9.5 inches of rear suspension? their bikes are sick.

Klein was runnining internal cable routing loooong befor Mtn Cycle

 

[dropmachine]

Frasier quit playing internet badguy before soembody beats you up in real life.

Stratos wasn't all bad, not at all. They finally got the seals figured out in the S8, and when it wasn't leading, it was a good time for sure. Same iwht the MX6, whic h wasn't terrible really at all. Wasn't great, but wasn't terrible.

The S7, now that was terrible. I will just never understand why it was so goddam bad, but it was. Strange that the MX6 would work and feel decent, and the S7 felt like the damper was made of felt.

Anyways, shame about them goin under, if its true.

 

[Wayne]

I had the misfortune of owning an S8 for about a month. The teflon tape bushings died and I got scared and sold it. It actually felt ok up until then, mostly like a 1970's Caddy feels driving on a rough road.

The S7, words can't describe that fork.

I'm all for supporting the little guy as long as they are making product that's up to par with the best.

 

[BikeMike]

Exactly...They produced the exact same bikes for 15 years.

Kinesis pawned them off to Ideation cause they didn't want to put the time/money into R&D on new designs...

Whereas Kona has been innovating for years. Wait a minute...

(and Versus, which also has produced revolutionary designs, along with countless other companies in the bicycle industry, like Gary Fisher, who just happens to be returning to a single pivot XC race bike much like the Superlight)

"Innovate or die" is a gross oversimplification. It's all about business, not catchy phrases.

 

[sanjuro]

Please provide evidence that Specialized "took" the patents instead of buying them or having agreements with the companies that developed them that it would be Specialized's patented technology.

I don't buy the old, tired, "big bad corporation" routine. People are greedy and/or short sighted. That's how many corporations acquire patents - someone sells out for small money before the patent is put into widespread use. Or the development of it is funded by the corporation with the agreement that the result will belong to them.

This is not always the case. I saw a 60 Minutes many years ago about a patent inventor who patented among other things the Weed Wacker. However, of the many patents he owned, he developed none of them. He simply had a good idea and then patented it.

When a company finally developed the idea in a working model (without any input or assistance from the patent owner), he would step in and start collecting royalties.

Not this is the case with SpecialEd. I just read in the Bicycle Retailer that Specialized has 15 suspension patents in the last 5 years, more than all their competitors combined. I think it is smart business, whether they invented it or bought it off.

 

[luelling]

This is not always the case. I saw a 60 Minutes many years ago about a patent inventor who patented among other things the Weed Wacker. However, of the many patents he owned, he developed none of them. He simply had a good idea and then patented it.

When a company finally developed the idea in a working model (without any input or assistance from the patent owner), he would step in and start collecting royalties.

Not this is the case with SpecialEd. I just read in the Bicycle Retailer that Specialized has 15 suspension patents in the last 5 years, more than all their competitors combined. I think it is smart business, whether they invented it or bought it off.

Thats exactly what happened to the Blackberry....and RMI (I think thats their name) won a huge settlement for patent infringement and they never even produced a product nor did they have intention of doing so.

 

[binary visions]

Sure, there are a lot of ways to obtain patents. I just mean that the image of the bully who stomps up to the patent inventor, kicks sand in his face and takes away the patent is a little silly.

If someone else invented a patent and Specialized now owns it, chances are it was either purchased or the patent was developed for them. Neither of those are underhanded or should be frowned upon for any reason.

 

[blue]

Whereas Kona has been innovating for years. Wait a minute...

(and Versus, which also has produced revolutionary designs, along with countless other companies in the bicycle industry, like Gary Fisher, who just happens to be returning to a single pivot XC race bike much like the Superlight)

"Innovate or die" is a gross oversimplification. It's all about business, not catchy phrases.

I'm not saying that's the only reason they were unsuccessful, but it was a very large part of it. They lacked an image (ala Kona...), decent marketing, business management practices (Kinesis basically put them adrift and gave them some funky tubing), and frankly, their bikes looked like ass.

How long has Versus been around? A couple years?

 

[sanjuro]

Sure, there are a lot of ways to obtain patents. I just mean that the image of the bully who stomps up to the patent inventor, kicks sand in his face and takes away the patent is a little silly.

If someone else invented a patent and Specialized now owns it, chances are it was either purchased or the patent was developed for them. Neither of those are underhanded or should be frowned upon for any reason.

Look at Microsoft for example. They made a deal with IBM to develop an O/S for IBM's new pc, and then Gates bought DOS from another company.

IBM figured only the computers had value, and the DOS developer gave it away for a song.

Keep in mind that a patent is worth something, especially when a big boy starts getting involved. There would be lots of lawyers would be glad to go against Specialized on Stratos' behalf on a contigency.

 

[blt2ride]

Frasier quit playing internet badguy before soembody beats you up in real life.

Stratos wasn't all bad, not at all. They finally got the seals figured out in the S8, and when it wasn't leading, it was a good time for sure. Same iwht the MX6, whic h wasn't terrible really at all. Wasn't great, but wasn't terrible.

The S7, now that was terrible. I will just never understand why it was so goddam bad, but it was. Strange that the MX6 would work and feel decent, and the S7 felt like the damper was made of felt.

Anyways, shame about them goin under, if its true.

I don't like to bad mouth products on the internet, but I did own a Stratos S7 for a little while. Despite its many adjsutments, I couldn't even find one that felt right. I have to agree, not too sure why it didn't feel right, but it didn't.

 

[Internal14]

Every single stratos out there constantly spewed oil from it's seals. Even owners who were happy with their forks will tell you this. Things break sure, things from stratos came broken. It wasn't an occasional thing, it was the norm.

Now Transcend...I normally like reading your posts here and have always thought of you as an alright guy. Heck, I even help fill up the overflowing radiator on that Risse truck you and a couple of other monkey's were driving somewhere once....

But to say "Every single stratos out there...spewed oil..." Well that's just an assinine statement my friend. I know of a guy who had a MX-6 on the front of his Tandem that he would do 6-8hr sierra rides on that thing all summer long on big trips and never once had a problem with a blown seal for THREE YEARS! And this guy is not easy on his parts either.

Just be carefull when you use absolutisms(is this even a word? ). There is always bound to be one out there that throws the stats off.

I used to run a champ years and years ago, back when Risse was in Sunnyvale and a guy named Dimitry was working there and he always took care of things quickly and professionaly. I'm not saying that the champ would hold a candle to anything out there today, but eight years ago it was a pretty good fork. I got mine to work pretty good at least. It seemed that after the Redding move that company went downhill fast...and not in a good way.lthumbsdown:

 

[Jm_]

Now Transcend...I normally like reading your posts here and have always thought of you as an alright guy. Heck, I even help fill up the overflowing radiator on that Risse truck you and a couple of other monkey's were driving somewhere once....

But to say "Every single stratos out there...spewed oil..." Well that's just an assinine statement my friend. I know of a guy who had a MX-6 on the front of his Tandem that he would do 6-8hr sierra rides on that thing all summer long on big trips and never once had a problem with a blown seal for THREE YEARS! And this guy is not easy on his parts either.

Just be carefull when you use absolutisms(is this even a word? ). There is always bound to be one out there that throws the stats off.

I used to run a champ years and years ago, back when Risse was in Sunnyvale and a guy named Dimitry was working there and he always took care of things quickly and professionaly. I'm not saying that the champ would hold a candle to anything out there today, but eight years ago it was a pretty good fork. I got mine to work pretty good at least. It seemed that after the Redding move that company went downhill fast...and not in a good way.lthumbsdown:

In the same line of thought, my S8 Ultra was a good fork. Ultra plush, damping worked well, could plow through anything, got a little over claimed travel, etc. The shiver that I picked up later did everything the S8 did, slightly better, and a good deal lighter, but the S8 was definitely a good fork. My stratos experience is only 2/3 though, the helix expert rear shock I had was ok, but the MX6 I had blew chunks.

 

[noskcaj]

I am currently riding an S8 right now. Its an ok fork. It absorbs large impacts well (drops) but does not have the small bump compliancy of a marzocchi or boxxer. But i also got it for a small fraction of the price of a better known fork, so no complaints here. Part of the reason the small companies are so expensive and rather crappy is that they just dont have the resources to make a good product at a resonable price. Marzocchi and Rock Shox have such better manufacturing that they can produce a top-level product quickly and efficiently.

As far as innovation goes, i get the feeling companies change things just to change them and keep techno-weenies happy. Im riding a 94 Kona Kilauea steel frame on my xc bike and i couldnt be happier. I will say suspension improvements are nice, but i also like having a feel for the trail.

 

[Bearmntpicnic]

Klein was runnining internal cable routing loooong befor Mtn Cycle

get a bike

 

[wood-dog]

get a bike

I got one and I ride it all the time. It's called your sister!:biggrin:

 

[blue]

Something popped up on MTBr...guy claims to have gotten this from the Stratos peeps. Wouldn't shock me, big S isn't renowned for their business practices, and our patent/legal system is screwed up enough that if you've got the coin, you're home free...

YES Specialized has Sued him into submission, he is not out of business just yet but has had to scale way down, as the ID product line was what they had been spending all the money on $Hundred of thousands.
The issue is very basic. In 2003 Mike Licensed exclusivly 18 us and international patents from the company that invented flow controlled inertia valve technology in the eairly 90’s and Specialized wants this technology for the 2007 product line they just released, and it is more in their style to sue some body than to do the morally right thing and pay the miniscule licensing fees, the Attorneys make more money that way. Here is the history as I wrote about it about a year ago in this forum.

In 1998 every suspension company had the opportunity to license this technology but only OnSport/Stratos did. In 1998 RockShox was looking at this too, McAndrews the so called “inventor” of the brain shock was the head of R&D at RockShox. See US patent #6105987 by Paul Turner assigned to RockShox for proof of this. In 1997 Ricor, the company that OnSport licensed from, put inertia valve shocks on a Specialized bike and then showed every body the future, but no non discloure agreements as they had patents, thus they are the true inventors not Specialized or McAndrews. See past posts from Shocknerd for verification. In 1999 McAndrews filed a patent on the “brain” and then had to have a team of attorneys do their dammedist to get it patented because there is so much prior art. Specialized did get a patent for a non co-axial inertia valve design but it is so limited as to not be manufacturable.

Here in lies the Rub, they now have a patent though it is arguably not valid, I have looked into this as this is what I do, it is in the prosecution history of the patent, and then they use that patent to say that Stratos is infringing them. Stratos now has to prove that they are not infringing the patent that has 6 of the Stratos licensed patents as prior art, is not for a front fork part, does not have a reservoir, that they are not infringing. If you know anything about patent defense cost, the company I work for uses this tactic too, a small company even when it is right as in this case can not afford to defend itself. According to Mike the head S at Specialized then calls him and says give me the your licensing agreement or we will sue you and for 100K I will bankrupt you and then get the patents that way. That was back in January of 2005, the same time they started working on the 2007 product line which once you understand that they have ditched Fox on the belief that they would have these patents all of this make perfect sense now. “ the Grand Plan”

Stratos then has another company, that shall remain nameless, defend them as they want to license it too. This other company tries in vain to get Specialized to negotiate a deal where they both could use the technology of these patents, but no go the big S is too greedy. After a large $$six figures they give up leaving Mike to defend it himself.
Stratos then stops all sales, promotion, and support of the ID product line but Specialized will still not back off.
So back to the way this started YES specialized is attempting and may succeed in driving Stratos out of business in an attempt to get the licensing agreement. Mike is out of money for the defense but even if they win in court they still have the lengthy process of trying to collect. Specialized sells over $80Million of brain related bikes a year, you would think that for a couple hundred grand a year they could afford to pay the licensing fees, as their latest product is a direct infringement of the patents that they are attempting to steal go check their website.

 

[ianjenn]

Exactly the post I was waiting for! It does sound feasible. Intense was sick of payinf FSR royalties and Specialized wouldn't want to pay "crappy STRATOS".

 

[vitox]

oh what a thriller

specially the part of "a company that shall remain nameless"

 

[noskcaj]

i wonder if that company is scott, i know them and specialized dont like each other

 

[vitox]

here is a very good mtbr thread on the subject, especially because of "shocknerd" who is in part the original inventor of the "not dumb" inertia valve.
very interesting also how he mentions theft going on when RS closed their plant in the US, i remember seeing so many forks with too obvious assembly errors back then that it was pretty self explanatory that the workers werent too happy to be laid off.

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=137995&highlight=specialized+stratos+sue

 

[ElTORO]

oh what a thriller

specially the part of "a company that shall remain nameless"

I found a Smilie of the big S!!

 

[shock]

there is some truth here. and patent laws suck. More money, more lawyers. ask the guy that invented intermittent wipers.

Not uncommon at all for big companies to outspend little guys, even when they know better.

isn't the first time, won't be the last.

ot, hi zedro, how ya doin?

 

[Brian HCM#1]

That's too bad about Stratos. I ran a S8 for 2 years without a problem, and have 2 friends that still ride '02 S7's with the original seals still in them without any leakage.

 

[ChrisRobin]

When I had my S7, Catherine was always helpful with me. The fork never leaked except once. Replaced the seals and it was alright. I had to really pull things apart, drill the cartridges and polish the bushings before the fork would feel smoothe. Even then, it still felt like it spiked on high speed hits no matter what I did to it.

When I got my 8" Boxxer, I did the 'wheel between the legs test' to check the stiffness and I noticed the Boxxer wasn't any stiffer than the S7... despite the fact it had that silly bolt on arch. Of course the boxxer is a better fork overall

What I never understood is, Stratos had MX suspension parts; why didn't they just copy their SR6 fork and make an MTB fork with it.

-leading axle making the fork shorter
-crowns that are 'counter sunk' or whatever you want to call it, making the crown to axle height shorter.

Take a look.

 

[scottishmark]

Intense was sick of payinf FSR royalties

at $1 a frame are you sure? something tells me they were just looking to move on

 

[zedro]

there is some truth here. and patent laws suck. More money, more lawyers. ask the guy that invented intermittent wipers.

Not uncommon at all for big companies to outspend little guys, even when they know better.

isn't the first time, won't be the last.

ot, hi zedro, how ya doin?

hey not bad, havent oozed for months....

yeah i'm not sure why people find this so hard to believe, two companies with very similar products and tangental patents...who's gonna win the lawsuit? How many innocent people go to jail each year because they cant afford a decent lawyer?

Stratos did claim on their website awhile ago that they had to stop selling the ID cart (i wanted one for my Shiver). I didnt understand at the time considering they claimed to be licencees from another company.

 

[blue]

at $1 a frame are you sure? something tells me they were just looking to move on

Is that all FSR costs?

Something tells me I doubt it.

I'm willing to bet VPP is cheaper from SC.

Paging DW...do you solely own the dw-link?