[manhattanprjkt83]

I love this thing...More compact drivetrain, no FD, and less clutter on the bars with the shifter...

I build all my bikes to be as minimalistic as possible, i threw my fd in the trash on my last build (Transition Covert 1x9) the wide spread 1x10 is all good IMO.

Every time one of the big s's releases another gear everyone freaks out...but it's not like we are seeing chains snapping in half at an alarming rate. My biggest complaint is the cost of a decent cassette, not that is getting out of control.

 

[ldw222]

I dig it. I really really want the 6-sp drivetrain they showed off on the proto '11 demo and would love this setup for my trailbike. No more front derailleurs, yay!!

I'm with you! I want to try that 1 x 6 too. It reminds me of my 20 inch with the small ring up front. Less stuff to go wrong...maybe.

 

[William42]

Think of it this way:

A standard triple drivetrain has about a 500% range of gears.
A typical double has about a 400% range.

The steps between a typical cogset are about 8-18%.

This means there are actually only about 14 gears needed to run a full range of gears. This is pretty much what the Rohlhoff hub achieves.

With this 9-36 cogset, you have about a 300% range with a single chainring up front. That is enough for many people.

As far a wear, friction, etc - that is exactly why we do prototypes. So far so good. Production is not a forgeone conclusion by any means.

Thanks for posting in on this. Nice to hear it from the guys working on it.

 

[Chaingangster]

Drivetrain innovation is the way forward. Front derailleurs work, but they are one of the most archaic components on a modern bicycle. We have progressed to the point where bicycles are at the cutting edge in suspension, materials, manufacturing etc, and yet we still have a front der that functions by shoving against a chain on its tensioned side trying to convince it to shift gears. Front ders rub, chainsuck, drop chains, don't shift under load, etc.
Sure, they work, but do they work that well? They haven't evolved with the modern bicycle. Think of all the innovations we've seen in the previous decade! The only reason we have crisper shifting today than 10 years ago is due to the efforts put in to shift ramps on chainrings, not any advances in front derailleurs.
Gearboxes may be the ultimate goal, but until they can approach the weight and efficiency of the external drivetrain, 1x10 is the evolutionary step on the way from the classic gearing we've had forever.
I applaud Sram for introducing 10spd MTB, and Specialized, DT and Hope for taking the next step. Simpler, lighter and more efficient is the way forward!

 

[buckoW]

BB heights are getting lower and lower on many frames. Why not find more clearance? I have been running a 12-36 XX cassette on my DH bike all season without any problems other than the chain being too thin for the chain guide.

So I fixed that and then it was fine.

 

[fluider]

I understand that for enduro racers, or enduro riders pushing it hard, the BB clearance is important factor. But I doubt it is for mainstream trail rider. If you're racer you probably change your parts quite often, maybe you buy parts in bigger amounts to get a discount. Maybe I'm not that mainstream rider who changes his bike every season-two.
The lack of front-mech has one strong disadvantage, imo. You already don't have the option of more input rpms. And it may be big difference on long few km climbs, if you suffer due to low input rpm and high torques, or if you can spin bit faster. Everyone's different, I'm not that muscular guy who can push tough gears on low rpm for longer.

So for racers OK, but for avarage guys not good idea imo.

 

[Sov]

The lack of front-mech has one strong disadvantage, imo. You already don't have the option of more input rpms. And it may be big difference on long few km climbs, if you suffer due to low input rpm and high torques, or if you can spin bit faster.

Thing is, you don't really lose that much of your range with a 9-36 cassette if you choose your front chainring correctly.

eg.
30 chainring with 36 on the back is equivalent to a 22 granny with 26 on the rear (which is the third easiest gear on a 11-34 cassette)

30 chainring with a 9t on the cassette is roughly equivalant to 42-13 (13t = the second hardest gear on a 11-34 cassette)

So what this means is that with a standard 22/32/42 and 11-34 setup, you lose the two easiest gears and the highest gear compared to 30 with 9-36. I reckon most people can deal with that.

 

[norbar]

I understand that for enduro racers, or enduro riders pushing it hard, the BB clearance is important factor. But I doubt it is for mainstream trail rider. If you're racer you probably change your parts quite often, maybe you buy parts in bigger amounts to get a discount. Maybe I'm not that mainstream rider who changes his bike every season-two.
The lack of front-mech has one strong disadvantage, imo. You already don't have the option of more input rpms. And it may be big difference on long few km climbs, if you suffer due to low input rpm and high torques, or if you can spin bit faster. Everyone's different, I'm not that muscular guy who can push tough gears on low rpm for longer.

So for racers OK, but for avarage guys not good idea imo.

You do realise that enduro racers gather mostly casual riders? Visit alpe d huez or les 2 alpes during their races and you will see that many people have very little skills yet they still start. They dont get any discounts and they are a huge group considering how early you have to book a spot for mega. Enduro is really big in western europe and for that its a perfect use.
Im also pretty sure the brits go bonkers over this as its the perfect setup for a do it all ripper on a small fully like the blur 4x or rampart.

 

[Sandwich]

Drivetrain innovation is the way forward.

One could argue the same thing about rear derailleurs, cassettes, or chains...they've all been massaged to be better, but in reality, we ride our bikes through dirt and over bumps...the last thing you want is a dangly thing hanging out back there with a lot of unsprung mass...then add in narrower chains that require tighter tolerances of tuning, tighter tolerances of manufacture, and require more maintenance to keep in their original positions, when most riders would find themselves in an adequate gearspread with an 11-34 and two front chainrings...

Or even suspension, which has gotten much better, but is still fluid resistance disks and some specific viscosity erl...hell most shocks are still coil springs with oil dampers...

I still maintain that developing a gearhub that allows for mo'torque or even better, a gearhub that mounts to the mainframe, is a better option than MOAR GEARZ in the back.

I applaud specialized's innovation, but it's certainly not for me, and I think in reality most riders could find a way around it...

 

[buckoW]

@ fluider and Sandwich

So, am I reading this correctly? You guys want to keep the front derailleur?

 

[fluider]

So I made simple table (which I should have done earlier) and I must admit that sideload on the chain is not gonna be 2x higher! Take my apologize.

I compared now usual configuration of 22/36 2-ring with 11-34 9sp casette, to 36t ring with 9-36 casette. The number under each gear is inverse of gear ratio, sort of coefficient to the input torque that determines the resulting chain force. The blue rectangles shall be compared and orange ones the same. Since the rear chainline is offset from front chainline by cca 10mm to the right, let's assume the ideal chainline is somewhere on 4th sprocket and the more you shift up (to the higher gears) the more chain stretch angle increases. So, on the right side of ideal chainline the 1x10 speed is going to put more sideload BUT it definitely is not 2x more. On the left side, the 22T granny is bigger destroyer. This all thanks to different gearing.

And the chart below shows differences in (inversed) gear ratio. 36T is much more consistent than remaining two.

 

[fluider]

@ fluider and Sandwich

So, am I reading this correctly? You guys want to keep the front derailleur?

I want to get rid of the derailleurs completely and forever. Working on it, but it takes me long... I actually didn't neet 3ring, there were many useless gears, but 2x9 combo is ideal for me, for the terrains I ride and for my knees.

To my previous post, please, if you find a mistake in there, please warn me.

 

[Sandwich]

@ fluider and Sandwich

So, am I reading this correctly? You guys want to keep the front derailleur?

I want to get rid of the derailleurs completely and forever. Working on it, but it takes me long... I actually didn't neet 3ring, there were many useless gears, but 2x9 combo is ideal for me, for the terrains I ride and for my knees.

To my previous post, please, if you find a mistake in there, please warn me.

this. I'd rather have two in the front than 10 in the rear...

nobutseriously I have a hard enough time keeping 8 speed shifting solid...9 speed reliability has been far worse, for me...adding another gear and making it smaller/increasing the cog spread will not achieve what I would prefer, which is narrower space between cogs with a reasonable range...I don't see the need for a single ring up front, especially not with DRS chain tensioners...but that's just me. Some people will love this, and that's fine.

In the end, I'd prefer to see an IG hub with a 6-8 speed spread for DH, or a frame mounted Rohloff on a trailbike.

 

[miuan]

@ ground clearance, since I use a 36t front ring on my DH bike, I smash my 165 cranks much more often than the bashguard (which is meant for it anyway)

@ number of gears.. back in the day I used to ride 7 speed. Now that I ride my 9 speed cassette in mud, it gets clogged so fast and ghost shifts all the time, esp at smallest cogs. How would a 9t 10sp cog deal with this?

 

[norbar]

@ ground clearance, since I use a 36t front ring on my DH bike, I smash my 165 cranks much more often than the bashguard (which is meant for it anyway)

@ number of gears.. back in the day I used to ride 7 speed. Now that I ride my 9 speed cassette in mud, it gets clogged so fast and ghost shifts all the time, esp at smallest cogs. How would a 9t 10sp cog deal with this?

I smash my 38T front ring much more often than my 165 cranks As for mud - happened only once for me - 8 speed.

 

[w00dy]

With this 9-36 cogset, you have about a 300% range with a single chainring up front. That is enough for many people.

36 / 9 = 4
That's a 400% spread. I'm not arguing that this is a bad thing. I'm always game for more range.

The reason I'm hating 10 speed up and down is because it is a push toward planned obsolescence. This crap is just a stepping stone to 11 speed, and then 12, and on and on. I continue to buy 8 speed stuff because it works the most reliably. I do not like being forced to replace my chain and derailleur every season. ManhattanPJKT, the thickness of the chain absolutely affects the life span. A 10 speed chain wears out much faster than an 8. Don't try to tell me otherwise, I've wrenched long enough to see the pattern myself.

I also hate this because I've ridden a 9t geared bike extensively. The chain runs poorly over such a small cog. It wears out even the toughest chains. It's a bad idea on a 20in wheel, let alone a 26 or 29 where it will see even larger torques.

Wall mart bikes are sold on the premise of MOAR GEERZ. I, for one, will not be drinking this cool-aid.

 

[Sandwich]

larger torques.

This cool-aid.

moar torkz

 

[Chaingangster]

Or even suspension, which has gotten much better, but is still fluid resistance disks and some specific viscosity erl...hell most shocks are still coil springs with oil dampers...

Isn't this pretty much the definition of a shock absorber in any industry, no matter how advanced?

I'm not trying to argue, I just fail to see the connection.

I agree rear ders are flimsy and vulnerable however...
C'mon gearbox innovators!!

 

[eatmyshorts]

electronikly controlled gears, dropper seatpost and active suspension..

There are a few wispers around the place...

 

[Ringer]

General question about the 10 speed drivetrains:

I want to keep my shifters/der with sram, but ideally not shell out for a $300 xx cassette. Can i run a shimano 10 speed cassette with sram chain, etc? vise versa?

Thx

 

[BOOMSLANG]

General question about the 10 speed drivetrains:

I want to keep my shifters/der with sram, but ideally not shell out for a $300 xx cassette. Can i run a shimano 10 speed cassette with sram chain, etc? vise versa?

Thx

You can pretty much run any 10 speed chain, even road. And any 10 speed cassette. Shimano and SRAM both will have lower cost cassette options in the future.

You just have to be sure your shifter and rear derailleur are the same brand.

Boomslang

 

[BikeMike]

Why do people hate the front derailleur so much? Do y'all really have that much trouble with them? It is one of the things I usually get dialed on a bike and then basically never have to touch. 2-ring guides exist too... I guess I'm permanently out of fashion. For the FD-incapacitated, a 36t single with a 12-34 (9-speed) will get you to the top quite effectively.

The marginal benefits of 10+ speed drive trains are negative. ABS(Utility gained in having an "extra gear") <<< ABS(utility lost by having tighter tolerances and more finicky shifting.)