[norbar]

not can't, won't.

and i have a VERY well paying job.

Ok, you so you won't because you prefer hookers and cocaine over new sram gizmos. I don't blame you. One has to has priorities

this is the problem. MTB, well, cycling in general, is turning into golf. products are being targeted to people with more money than common sense or ability.

when i lived in socal, the group road rides i'd see on the weekend? holy hell i couldn't count all the team replica kits. and this was back in 2007.

Why do you care who is the core group companies target their products to? You can still buy a great bike, for a good price. No one forces you to buy a tld limited edition xxx.0.dhextreme spesh demo. Hell if you want to buy it you can buy it off them for 50% of the price and it will be barely used.

Reading your post is like reading people who complain that movies are getting worse while the truth is good movies are still there, the only difference is that the most MARKETED movie is not something they are willing to buy.

 

[slyfink]

It is really? The gap between top of the line and entry level is getting bigger but it's not more expensive to have a great bike. Come on. Direct order offer amazing deals, some companies like Mondraker have great value on their complete builds. You also have greater choice, it's not only xc vs dh like 10 years ago. Now I can buy a capable dartmoor park bike for 2000$ and they have a regular distribution model.

To cut it short you are just angry because you can't buy the blingiest top of the line stuff but you are not the target of top of the line products. 40 year old guys with good paying jobs are. That is why the industry is pushing enduro so hard. Remember it's never the die hard, hardcore crowd that makes the industry spin.

this is the problem. MTB, well, cycling in general, is turning into golf. products are being targeted to people with more money than common sense or ability.

when i lived in socal, the group road rides i'd see on the weekend? holy hell i couldn't count all the team replica kits. and this was back in 2007.

Norbar, remember that direct-buy hasn't hit North America yet.

Also, I think you are wrong about the demographic that keeps the bike industrty in business. I look at all my buddies (40 year olds with disposable income) and see that no one finds it normal to spend the amounts on the blingiest of parts. No one. I think what drives the market is the middle of the road price range. But by driving the top range up to stratospheric levels, they are also pulling the middle of the range up too. Most 40 year olds have been biking long enough to remember when $3000 bought you an amazing bike. Now? not so much. We've also been riding long enough to know what works, and what we want. And to be continually priced out of our range sucks. Even if now it's not so much that we can't afford it, but rather that we refuse to pay those prices. Come to think of it, that's the whole philosophy behind the direct buy model. People want quality and performance but refuse to be extorted. North America has some catching up to do on that front.

I agree with Jon, it feels like the mountain bike industry wants to go the way of golf, or even worse road biking. And I think that sucks.

 

[mattmatt86]

this is one reason why i may ultimately ditch everything except my BMX bike. standards are WAY more standard than MTB. that, and you can get a fully pimped BMX bike for way less than a full suspension MTB frame,

And that's why BMX is for poor people. You don't see a doctor or dentist walk into your LBS and ask for the latest S-Works BMX frame and a set of 20" Enve Wheels.

 

[Samoto]

I agree with Jon Kranked.

it is way overpriced for what you get. Specialized DH stuffs is niche product after all.



Bring on, Shimano.

Combo of Zee stuffs, modified cassette, N&W chainring, 10speed KCM chain goes long way. I ignore 10T cog.

 

[Samoto]

Reading your post is like reading people who complain that movies are getting worse while the truth is good movies are still there, the only difference is that the most MARKETED movie is not something they are willing to buy.

you forgot it is only two brands to choose. Shimano and Sram

 

[norbar]

Norbar, remember that direct-buy hasn't hit North America yet.

Also, I think you are wrong about the demographic that keeps the bike industrty in business. I look at all my buddies (40 year olds with disposable income) and see that no one finds it normal to spend the amounts on the blingiest of parts. No one. I think what drives the market is the middle of the road price range. But by driving the top range up to stratospheric levels, they are also pulling the middle of the range up too. Most 40 year olds have been biking long enough to remember when $3000 bought you an amazing bike. Now? not so much. We've also been riding long enough to know what works, and what we want. And to be continually priced out of our range sucks. Even if now it's not so much that we can't afford it, but rather that we refuse to pay those prices. Come to think of it, that's the whole philosophy behind the direct buy model. People want quality and performance but refuse to be extorted. North America has some catching up to do on that front.

I agree with Jon, it feels like the mountain bike industry wants to go the way of golf, or even worse road biking. And I think that sucks.

That is why I was saying there are also NON direct companies with good complete prices. Also YT will be in US soon.

I agree the middle of the road price range keeps EVERY market going. But the high end part of EN/DH gear are there for the same reason you have 10k$ road bikes. Because there are people willing to pay for it and that group is growing. I have a few friends who don't really ride road more often than once a month but that doesn't stop them from throwing an absurd amount of money on their roadie crap.

That doesn't mean that there are no good bikes for 3-4k$.

Also 3000$ has bought you an amazing bike? What? Except for the underpriced sounday? What dh bikes have been available for 3k$ 10 years ago? Then adjust it for inflation.

 

[mattmatt86]

this is the problem. MTB, well, cycling in general, is turning into golf. products are being targeted to people with more money than common sense or ability.

when i lived in socal, the group road rides i'd see on the weekend? holy hell i couldn't count all the team replica kits. and this was back in 2007.

From a business standpoint that's good for everyone. Those team replica/doctor/dentist sales are high dollar sales, usually close to MSRP. That allows companies to fund R&D for more reasonably priced products. There are very few bike companies that have a business model that just targets the low end of the market. Most produce high dollar "showcase" products and allow the profits and R&D (sometimes just R&D) to makes it's way into the lower end products. I remember when a Lockout for a fork was a big deal and was only on the highest end models, you can now buy a bike for 500 dollars with a lockout. Maybe in 10 years every DH bike will come with a 7 speed DH specific drivetrain.

 

[slimshady]

From a business standpoint that's good for everyone. Those team replica/doctor/dentist sales are high dollar sales, usually close to MSRP. That allows companies to fund R&D for more reasonably priced products. There are very few bike companies that have a business model that just targets the low end of the market. Most produce high dollar "showcase" products and allow the profits and R&D (sometimes just R&D) to makes it's way into the lower end products. I remember when a Lockout for a fork was a big deal and was only on the highest end models, you can now buy a bike for 500 dollars with a lockout. Maybe in 10 years every DH bike will come with a 7 speed DH specific drivetrain.

I beg to differ. The "future R&D funding" paradigm the bike industry (and for that matter every other major industry) has been waving like a victory flag has been surpassed a long time ago. The actual R&D schedule is defined as far as 10 years ahead of the current standards, and we have been spoon fed with just what they want us to hype and drool on for the next season. It's all about maximizing profit these days, and if that implies putting 6 feet of dirt on top of a true enhancement because they aren't done with the revenues the actual "best" standards have to offer, well, they will do it.

What I've learned through these last years is that if the industry wants a new standard, they will not force it down our throats, but put peer pressure on us instead. And slowly cut the supply chain for the old standard. As slyfink said, this also drives the prices higher. I still remember when in the middle of the worst crisis my country has faced, the CEOs of the local branches of Reebok, Adidas and Nike declared they upped the prices because "an expensive product speaks of quality". Just like that, straight from those guys' mouths...

 

[Sandwich]

some of you people crack me up. Just recently I posted about a direct to consumer, us based downhill frame that came in $1000 less than most of the competition, even though it was very similar, to which every single poster turned up their nose, and said they would rather sped the $800 more for a very similar bike from a more "core" company. It may not be the bike industry that's retarded, it might be the consumer. YT or whomever will come over here, offer their bikes, and everybody will say, "uh, that's just a horst link bike, who cares I'd rather ride a specialized which is way more better." Half the people champion this **** when they can't even afford it. FWIW, there's still no x7 level 11 speed drivetrain. Trickle down nothing.

 

[mattmatt86]

So what's the alternative? Should specialized not sell a 10,000 dollar S-works bike because 99.9% of their customers can't afford it? Should Santa Cruz only make sub 4,000 dollar completes? If sales data backs up new innovations why would a company that's in the business of making money stop (re)innovating? I've been riding a X.9 Level drivetrain in various forms for almost 7 years now. But that doesn't mean I hold it against SRAM when they come out with XX1 or when Shimano Released Di2.

 

[slimshady]

I'm not saying they shouldn't make top-notch components/bikes/muffins/dildos/whatever. I'm talking about making profit in a more self-regulated way. The problem itself isn't about the industry, it's about how every company has turned into a mere stocks and shares exchange agent. And since they supposedly owe growing revenues year after year to their stockholders, they will do anything to meet these yearly goals. In the end, there's less and less money changing hands in the lower end of the food chain, and some times direct sales exacerbate this. Any LBS could tell you so.

 

[Sandwich]

speak with your wallet, that's all you can do.

I'm preparing to spend some dough on an enduro 29er. I friggin hate specialized's market tactics, I hate their love affair with everything SRAM, and I hate their love of forced obsolescence and proprietary fun, but goddamn, did they make an incredible bike that pushed the boundaries of what any other bike company has done, and when you actually look at it on paper, the still expensive lower end bikes are still a very good deal. So, specialized is going to take my money, hire a few more lawyers, sue a few more tiny bike shops, but I'm going to get a bike that suits my needs, because they actually built something that I want.

 

[jonKranked]

And that's why BMX is for poor people. You don't see a doctor or dentist walk into your LBS and ask for the latest S-Works BMX frame and a set of 20" Enve Wheels.

and yet some of the sickest riding goes down on bmx bikes. simple, cheap, and probably the most durable bikes on the market.

bmx is one of the last segments of the industry that's still predominantly by riders for riders. thankfully.

 

[jonKranked]

Rad for sure, but $580 for a cassette and derailleur is damn pricey. That's a lot of Zelvy guards.

it bumps up to $723 when you include the 7spd shifter.

seven. hundred. fvcking. dollars. for a cassette, derailler, and shifter. is this really what it's come to?

 

[OGRipper]

well DUH

the problem is they've been toeing the line between being profitable and straight overcharging for years.

Well DERR, isn't that exactly what a for-profit company does? Isn't that exactly how a competitive marketplace works? You make stuff and sell it for as much as people will pay. If you don't sell your stuff, you either make different stuff or charge less.

Still not seeing your argument here.

 

[jonKranked]

Maybe in 10 years every DH bike will come with a 7 speed DH specific drivetrain.

i can go home right now and convert my DH bike to 7 spd with an allen key, a couple spacers, and not a cent of out my pockets.

 

[jonKranked]

Well DERR, isn't that exactly what a for-profit company does? Isn't that exactly how a competitive marketplace works? You make stuff and sell it for as much as people will pay. If you don't sell your stuff, you either make different stuff or charge less.

Still not seeing your argument here.

compare high end sram to high end shimano. MSRP on sram's high end stuff carries in some cases a 50% premium over shimano. is sram stuff really 50% better?

(yes, i'm aware 11spd xtr/saint stuff isn't on the market, but still.)

 

[mattmatt86]

it bumps up to $723 when you include the 7spd shifter.

seven. hundred. fvcking. dollars. for a cassette, derailler, and shifter. is this really what it's come to?

Yes, it's capitalism. Do you hate freedom?

Every time new tech comes out like this it gives smaller companies like One-up, wolftooth, problem solves etc. to come in and create a business model off of people's disdain with new standards and high end parts that "don't solve anything."

Like Sandwich said, vote with your wallet.

Well DERR, isn't that exactly what a for-profit company does? Isn't that exactly how a competitive marketplace works? You make stuff and sell it for as much as people will pay. If you don't sell your stuff, you either make different stuff or charge less.

Still not seeing your argument here.

Exactly. It's economics, plain and simple. Supply and demand, if these companies weren't selling 300 dollar cassettes or 2,000 dollar wheelsets or 10,000 dollar bikes they would stop making them.

i can go home right now and convert my DH bike to 7 spd with an allen key, a couple spacers, and not a cent of out my pockets.

Ok, I don't understand what that has to do with the conversation. Just because you can do that doesn't mean everyone wants to do that.

Just because someone has a cheaper alternative to a high end product doesn't mean the high end product should cease to exist. Just because a Honda Accord exists doesn't mean Ferrari should stop producing cars.

 

[jonKranked]

Yes, it's capitalism. Do you hate freedom?

Every time new tech comes out like this it gives smaller companies like One-up, wolftooth, problem solves etc. to come in and create a business model off of people's disdain with new standards and high end parts that "don't solve anything."

Like Sandwich said, vote with your wallet.



Exactly. It's economics, plain and simple. Supply and demand, if these companies weren't selling 300 dollar cassettes or 2,000 dollar wheelsets or 10,000 dollar bikes they would stop making them.


Ok, I don't understand what that has to do with the conversation. Just because you can do that doesn't mean everyone wants to do that.

Just because someone has a cheaper alternative to a high end product doesn't mean the high end product should cease to exist. Just because a Honda Accord exists doesn't mean Ferrari should stop producing cars.

just to be clear - i like the products, frankly its about time. i don't like the astronomical price tag. i guess sram had to pay for their road disc brake recall somehow.

 

[mattmatt86]

just to be clear - i like the products, frankly its about time. i don't like the astronomical price tag. i guess sram had to pay for their road disc brake recall somehow.

+rep to you sir

That is certainly a connection I haven't seen made, but I could definitely see a bean counter looking at their year end books saying "we need to add an additional 30% on top of the new XO1 DH prices to offset the brake recall debacle."


Edit: Must spread...

 

[vikingboy]

i can go home right now and convert my DH bike to 7 spd with an allen key, a couple spacers, and not a cent of out my pockets.

with a 10 tooth cog?

 

[jonKranked]

+rep to you sir

That is certainly a connection I haven't seen made, but I could definitely see a bean counter looking at their year end books saying "we need to add an additional 30% on top of the new XO1 DH prices to offset the brake recall debacle."


Edit: Must spread...

in all honestly, the high price is probably more tied to a low sales forecast and/or small production runs of these items.

but still, when you look across sram's portfolio - ALL their top of the line stuff is priced substantially higher than shimano's top of the line. maybe it's a built in premium for all the warranty parts they send out?

 

[jonKranked]

with a 10 tooth cog?

in that case add in a bench grinder and some JB weld.

 

[vikingboy]

in all honestly, the high price is probably more tied to a low sales forecast and/or small production runs of these items.

but still, when you look across sram's portfolio - ALL their top of the line stuff is priced substantially higher than shimano's top of the line. maybe it's a built in premium for all the warranty parts they send out?

I would image the DH group set will utilise a certain amount of machining and tooling all ready in place for XX1 and X01 so extends their product range and recoups costs from an extended market, albeit a small section but one with high advertising and aspirational value.
Just casually looking over the range, the cranks look the same , the cassette has same spacing and manufacturing system, derailleur is the same as xx1 with a a shorter cage, the shifter pod again the same body with slightly different internals and so on.

 

[jonKranked]

I would image the DH group set will utilise a certain amount of machining and tooling all ready in place for XX1 and X01 so extends their product range and recoups costs from an extended market, albeit a small section but one with high advertising and aspirational value.
Just casually looking over the range, the cranks look the same , the cassette has same spacing and manufacturing system, derailleur is the same as xx1 with a a shorter cage, the shifter pod again the same body with slightly different internals and so on.

dunno about this one. possibly some slight tweaks due to the reduced range - bear in mind we're talking about a reduced range of ~35% when compared to a regular 11spd setup. [edit] so it's not as simple as just dialing in the limit screw

 

[vikingboy]

you could be right Jon - in my garden shed engineering project I expected a longer screw for the limiter high limiter, a different cam for the cable pull ratio perhaps and a shorter cage...and of course most importantly a new sticker. You could be right though.

just wait until we get electric powered shifting shimano gear then we'll all have something to grumble about

 

[frango]

just wait until we get electric powered shifting shimano gear then we'll all have something to grumble about

Is there anything wrong with XTR Di2 before it's released? ;>

 

[OGRipper]

I've been trying to figure out a way to harness the pool of extensive knowledge and sense of entitlement that is apparent in this thread, and I think I've got it:

Form a non-profit, charitable organization dedicated to spreading bling to the masses.

 

[wood booger]

in all honestly, the high price is probably more tied to a low sales forecast and/or small production runs of these items.

but still, when you look across sram's portfolio - ALL their top of the line stuff is priced substantially higher than shimano's top of the line. maybe it's a built in premium for all the warranty parts they send out?

Ding ding ding!

SRAM learned this one from El Ese Grande; charge what qty3 of whatever you are selling costs to produce.
That way you can warranty the product twice and not lose money (and have great customer service )

And for all the posers that buy the stuff and never ride it (hard) and don't break it = massive profits!

I call it the "Let the customer do the testing" or "QC, we don't need no stinking QC" business model.

And judging by the luxury car collection in a certain parking lot in MH, it works pretty damn well!

 

[thad]

What $3400 gets you in 2014

What $2820 got you in 2004 dollars = $3492 current dollar value

 

[jackalope]

So it seems like we had a better deal in 2004 -

• more bottom bracket height
• more fork
• better derailleur cable routing
• more safety (seatpost reflector)
• more frame
• less rear wheel weight, so it rolls faster
• more potential seatpost - shock interaction


I don't know what your point is, we've regressed in awesomeness.

 

[jonKranked]

So it seems like we had a better deal in 2004 -

• more bottom bracket height
• more fork
• better derailleur cable routing
• more safety (seatpost reflector)
• more frame
• less rear wheel weight, so it rolls faster
• more potential seatpost - shock interaction


I don't know what your point is, we've regressed in awesomeness.

BUT WERE THERE MOAR SHIMZ?!?!?!

 

[jonKranked]

Is there anything wrong with XTR Di2 before it's released? ;>

Considering how long di2 has been on the market for road, I'd say its a safer bet the SRAM road disc brakes

 

[frorider]

Form a non-profit, charitable organization dedicated to spreading bling to the masses.

most bike companies fit that description already, if you substitute 'poorly managed in a crowded market' for 'charitable'.

 

[frorider]

So it seems like we had a better deal in 2004 -

• more bottom bracket height
• more fork
• better derailleur cable routing
• more safety (seatpost reflector)
• more frame
• less rear wheel weight, so it rolls faster
• more potential seatpost - shock interaction


I don't know what your point is, we've regressed in awesomeness.

Don't forget 2004 had moar HA.

 

[cableguy]

• more safety (seatpost reflector)

Not sure about other states, but we get more reflectors now (on wheels and elsewhere) when we buy bikes in California

 

[no skid marks]

seems a shame to waste all that spare freehub width. increasing flange spacing and/or reducing overall hub & bb widths seem like more optimal solutions. if you're buying into a new standard anyways. maybe even going back to 9 speed cog thickness & spacing to increase drivetrain longevity if you're going to be dropping $300 on a cassette.

YES! or 8 speed. Does 83mm BB work chainline wise with 142 rear? Or just release a gearbox FFS.

and FWIW - profile used to make a 135mm wide hub that was designed specifically for 6 speed (ie hub shell took up the extra width). R.I.P.

So do Hope, King ets. Its just their SS hubs.

So they know we want simpler drivetrains with less gears on Dh bikes. Did they miss the part about not wanting super narrow 10/11speed chains?

One step forward, two steps back. Now come on Shimano! M830 deserves this....without the price and ridiculousness.

here here.

 

[HardtailHack]

Yeah I don't see the point unless they say **** the world we are doing 7spud in 135mmx12mm, you could run lower Q Factor cranks so you don't have to worry about uber thin pedals and the chainline would be the same.

I believe Acros can do a 135x12mm SS hub now, I was looking at getting a narrow back ended Katipo before I became very poor and had to ababdon plans.

I have just chopped my Zee mech arm down so it runs and 8spd cassette, I am fat and slow so I don't care aboot the weight.

EDIT- People bang on about narrower chains and weakness, the bits that are responsible for strength are where the pins go in to the links, making the centre roller bit narrower shouldn't do shiet.

 

[Sandwich]

So...I'm going to steer this discussion over to the "other aggro big wheeler" thread, since I've taken it off course.

I was simply trying to make the point that, even though I'm not a fan of specialized, they have built what I want, and I'm willing to pay them to get one. If SRAM has built what you want, then throw $300 at them for a derailleur, otherwise this deserves to fail, or perhaps collect dust in your orthopedic surgeon's garage.

 

[no skid marks]

i can go home right now and convert my DH bike to 7 spd with an allen key, a couple spacers, and not a cent of out my pockets.

yeah you can.

Yes, it's capitalism. Do you hate freedom?
Like Sandwich said, vote with your wallet.

What about Freedom to buy what is obviously the right design. Instead of an obvious money grab. As mentioned BMX has done it. Why isn't DH like DH? With tough reliable products. Without self obsoleting technology.

with a 10 tooth cog?

What's that =? Two teeth larger on the front ring.