[RhinofromWA]

OK we all seem to be looking for new subjects so...

Link to article if I did it right

First few paragraphs.....

Grocery chains seek temp help to repel strike threat by union

2004-04-24
by Cydney Gillis
Journal Business Reporter

BELLEVUE, WA -- The ads in Friday's newspaper were big and blaring: Fred Meyer and QFC are taking applications for temporary workers.

In smaller ads, Safeway said it's looking, too. Albertson's is expected to follow.

All four chains are gearing up for what could be the Puget Sound area's first grocery strike since 1989 -- one that would involve 16,000 clerks and meat cutters who belong to the United Food and Commercial Workers.

OK, so we all have different opinions on Unions and their place. We can all acknowledge that..... but here we go.

- Are unions still beneficial these days?
- Is advertising for replacement workers a week before a possible strike really an intimidation tactic?
- Many companies have had to reduce health care benefits due to increases in cost....where is the balance between what the union wants and what the employers can realistically give?

``Most (grocery) employees don't work fulltime,'' said Lisa Coleman, a worker at the Larry's Market in Bellevue.

In addition, if new hires end up with lower wages and benefits, ``Young kids aren't going to be able to afford working there,'' Coleman said.

- Aren't young kids, with few expenses, the ones that are traditionally perform these jobs? Do they need to be paid much more than minimum wage?

So anything else you guys want to spring up from this article please do.

I need to get back to work.

Rhino

 

[Toshi]

i see plenty of 30 and 40 year olds working in grocery stores. sad but true.

 

[Silver]

I haven't noticed an improvement in service since we got unionized grocery workers back in Southern California.

I loved the strike. There were more cashiers open and 25% of the regular shoppers in the store.

 

[RhinofromWA]

Originally posted by Toshi
i see plenty of 30 and 40 year olds working in grocery stores. sad but true.

What does that tell us? I knew 30 some year old dish washers at Sizzler Steak House (HS job at 17yo : ) that doesn't mean they should be there in that crappy job that I was happy (dumb, young) enough to do.

If you are a checker at 30-40 you might want to look into something else. If you are doing it part time because you have kids cool....life time career? Something new might be in order. I can see managers....ei: Produce, meats dept, store mangers etc getting better pay and benefits, but checkers, stockers, and bag boys? ....*shrugging shoulders and shaking head*

 

[BurlyShirley]

Screw grocery workers. You could teach a chimp to do that job if chimps didnt cost more than the 5-year salary of these replacements.
Seriously, its a non-skill job. Ive done it. Hire new guys for 3 bucks less an hour and make the cashiers who're striking realize that they ain't sh** and you dont amount to crap in life by working at safeway.

 

[Tenchiro]

Originally posted by RhinofromWA
- Are unions still beneficial these days?

I am going to say yes, although some unions are far stronger than others. I know a few people with in unions that get treated very crappy, but if it weren't for the union I think it would be much, much worse (Qwest).

- Is advertising for replacement workers a week before a possible strike really an intimidation tactic?

When they are advertising with in-store signs, I think it is even if it is unintentional. Want ads, I think are far less intimidating mostly because you aren't always reminded of their presence at work.

- Many companies have had to reduce health care benefits due to increases in cost....where is the balance between what the union wants and what the employers can realistically give?

For many corporations it is all about profit, at the expense of everything else. Including the workers. I think if a corportations profit margins are so thin they can' t afford to treat their employees properly, they are definately doing something wrong.

- Aren't young kids, with few expenses, the ones that are traditionally perform these jobs? Do they need to be paid much more than minimum wage?

I think for unskilled, entry level jobs, minumum wage is a good place to start.

 

[RhinofromWA]

Originally posted by Tenchiro
I am going to say yes, although some unions are far stronger than others. I know a few people with in unions that get treated very crappy, but if it weren't for the union I think it would be much, much worse (Qwest).

When they are advertising with in-store signs, I think it is even if it is unintentional. Want ads, I think are far less intimidating mostly because you aren't always reminded of their presence at work.

For many corporations it is all about profit, at the expense of everything else. Including the workers. I think if a corportations profit margins are so thin they can' t afford to treat their employees properly, they are definately doing something wrong.

I think for unskilled, entry level jobs, minumum wage is a good place to start.

I will have to think more about it to consider it unions are still beneficial to the process....I feal they have over corrected and expect to much...as in the checkers/bag boy unions. It is an entry level job that is low skill/training and should be paid accordingly. But I guess there are some instances where they do some good. Teachers are leaning over into not good for me right now.

I think it a union is threatening to strike the store has every right to advertise on the front door of thier store. The union members can feel scared they should...their union is going to force themto stop working.

Health care cost in the last decade have skyrocketed in and employers have been eating the increase price. It is insane how much it costs to have health insurance now. I don't know how much coverage they get now but if it is challenged at every turn by the union I bet it is still pretty damn good. It is not uncommon for business to ask the employee to help cover some of the cost or reduce the level or change the plan to help reflect the increased cost......but I doubt a union is even open to that sort of discussion. Higher Copays, deductibles, % of coverage, paying for dependants on plan.....all taboo to unions as they think the company can easily pay for the coverage. That simply isn't the case.

Re: Minimum wage comment- So why do unions need to be in the equation?

Oh and thank you Tenchiro....some good thoughts....I will have to dwell on. My knee jerk reaction was "f'n unions" I still think they did their business stopping children from working in mines and spending 80hrs a week in iron factories, etc. Grocery store employees tend to wierd me out. My best friend was a Safeway bag boy and had to pay dues....they made thier money off him.

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

Originally posted by BurlySurly
Screw grocery workers. You could teach a chimp to do that job if chimps didnt cost more than the 5-year salary of these replacements.

LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!;
specially the "coming from a soldier" part!.



i dont think the fact "they are kids and dont need more money" should apply.
its ridiculous to underpay somebody, because u think "they dont need more money" and then back it up with the age argument.

 

[BurlyShirley]

Originally posted by ALEXIS_DH
LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!;
specially the "coming from a soldier" part!.

Would you rather it was "coming from a little rich college boy"?

 

[MMike]

Originally posted by BurlySurly
Screw grocery workers. You could teach a chimp to do that job if chimps didnt cost more than the 5-year salary of these replacements.
Seriously, its a non-skill job. Ive done it. Hire new guys for 3 bucks less an hour and make the cashiers who're striking realize that they ain't sh** and you dont amount to crap in life by working at safeway.

Finally I agree with you!

 

[MMike]

...and unions are for pussies....

Said it before I'll say it again. The Boeing SPEEA strike was the most lucrative 40 days of my career.......

 

[MikeD]

Originally posted by MMike
Finally I agree with you!

Me too. They got better pay and healthcare than many jobs that require an actual skill and education. I'll try to dig up a letter from some UCSD nurses to the union...it was pretty pointed.

MD

 

[I Are Baboon]

Two words: Self checkout.

 

[MTB_Rob_NC]

Originally posted by ALEXIS_DH
its ridiculous to underpay somebody, because u think "they dont need more money" and then back it up with the age argument.

They aren't being underpaid, they are being paid the market value of that mindless job that is slowly being replaced by "self-checkouts" across the country.

Hey here is a heads up along the same lines. Ever taken a peak at the cash register at a fast food place? Its all pictures and simple enough for even the dumbest tool in the shed to work it. Guess whats next? Just spin that f--ker around (or use voice recognition to place orders) and let the customer place their own order, slide the bills in a changer or swipe the card and Voila. The fast food industry just saved millions of $s in employee cost. I am sure there is some attorney seeing that if he can get $1 per week from every fast food worker in a region to start a union and make $150k a year as the union chief one will start up.

Lets all start unions and stifle efficient work places. Who knows maybe we can pay someone $27+ benefits p/hour to put lugnuts in new cars when a robot could do it twice as fast... Oh wait we already do that. :devil: :devil:

 

[MMike]

No sh|t!! They make mnimum wage because the job does not warrnat their making more than that. No training, or skill is required. Pick up food, put in bag. Pick up food, put in bag.

Grocery store people should not be driving BMW's

 

[BurlyShirley]

Now, if these were 'topless' checkout ladies, then yeah, maybe Id support them...

 

[Andyman_1970]

Originally posted by MMike
Said it before I'll say it again. The Boeing SPEEA strike was the most lucrative 40 days of my career.......

Unions are killing the aircraft industry. The times I have visited our facility in Witchita that assembles our airplanes it makes me sick to see how many union workers sitting on their butts doing nothing and getting paid $30+ dollars and hours...............:angry:

Every wonder why cars cost so much?(unions!) Don't even get me started on the automotive industry.

 

[Silver]

Originally posted by Andyman_1970
Unions are killing the aircraft industry. The times I have visited our facility in Witchita that assembles our airplanes it makes me sick to see how many union workers sitting on their butts doing nothing and getting paid $30+ dollars and hours...............:angry:

Every wonder why cars cost so much?(unions!) Don't even get me started on the automotive industry.

I've been on both sides, and the white collar guys point to the lazy blue collar guys and use that as an excuse to pay the people doing the grunt work like crap, and the the blue collar guys points to the lazy white collar guys and get pissed that that dick is getting 80K a year to gossip by the water cooler all day, so they unionize.

Look around your office and figure out how many people are essentially useless. If it's an office with more than 20 people, I'd guess that in most places 5-10 are the ones doing the actual work.

Back on topic, the grocery store clerks are idiots. They are all going to be replaced by RFID tags in 10 years anyways...

 

[fluff]

Originally posted by MMike
Grocery store people should not be driving BMW's

Why not?

 

[Andyman_1970]

Originally posted by Silver
I've been on both sides, and the white collar guys point to the lazy blue collar guys and use that as an excuse to pay the people doing the grunt work like crap, and the the blue collar guys points to the lazy white collar guys and get pissed that that dick is getting 80K a year to gossip by the water cooler all day, so they unionize.

Granted this is anecdotal at best, but I'll share with you what it's like in the aircraft industry I have seen. The blue collar guys are hourly, and with OT (which we have all the time) they can easily make over 6 figures in a year. Now mind you these are sheet metal guys here, very few if any have any college, some military background, but mostly High School education.

Now us white collar types. We are salaried, which according to our company means that if we work less than 40 hours in a normal 5 day week, we have to make up the time. But if we are required to work over 40 hours, we get no compensation, zero, not even comp time. Let me assure you our salaries are less than half of the sheet metal guys I referred to.

In the aircraft industry the blue collar types are not as bad off as they might be in a different industry, but the unions are still adding non-value added cost to the product.

Originally posted by Silver
Look around your office and figure out how many people are essentially useless. If it's an office with more than 20 people, I'd guess that in most places 5-10 are the ones doing the actual work.

Out of a engineering department of 30 people, about one person is truly useless. After 9/11 our department went from 70 people to 30 in 3 weeks (i.e. we are very lean now). My group alone had 14 engineers, now it is down to one, me. Now keep in mind we went from doing 63 airplanes a year pre-9/11 to 48 a year now, so the production was reduced by 76% and the manpower 93%............does not compute.....................

Granted this is anecdotal to where I work, but as far as the aircraft industry is concerned, unions are way past their prime and are a liability to the health of the company.

 

[Toshi]

Originally posted by fluff
Why not?

trabants for the proletariat!

 

[MMike]

Originally posted by Toshi
trabants for the proletariat!

They are allowed to WASH BMW's....

Such is the way of the universe.

 

[fluff]

Originally posted by MMike
They are allowed to WASH BMW's....

Such is the way of the universe.

In this country they seem to be driven solely by tossers. Pity really, they're good cars but I just can't bring myself to get one..

Not that I want one that much anyway. I'm contempleting life without the infernal combustion engine.

Except maybe one of these:

 

[BostonBullit]

It's all just part of the complete tail spin that is America right now, caused by people trying to make everyone "equal". you see it in affirmative action, you see it in the ADA, you see it in the tax code, and you see it on little league fields across our great land; but for some reaon people aren't seeing it as wrong. People like to say "why shouldn't we be able to live in nice houses and buy nice things just because we work as grocery checkers?" the answer? "because you're doing the same damn job I watched a 4yo do for himself at the Home Depot self checkout last night....moron" (true story). If I could make $50k/yr with 3wks vaca and full benefits checking groceries at the local foodmart I wouldn't have gone through the time and expense of getting an engineering degree, what would the point be? hell I didn't even get a cool little striped hat :angry:.

go ahead and go on strike, I'm pretty sure there are 1.3M illegal alians on the left coast that would glady take your place behind the counter for $6/hr....

 

[MMike]

Originally posted by BostonBullit
It's all just part of the complete tail spin that is America right now, caused by people trying to make everyone "equal". you see it in affirmative action, you see it in the ADA, you see it in the tax code, and you see it on little league fields across our great land; but for some reaon people aren't seeing it as wrong. People like to say "why shouldn't we be able to live in nice houses and buy nice things just because we work as grocery checkers?" the answer? "because you're doing the same damn job I watched a 4yo do for himself at the Home Depot self checkout last night....moron" (true story). If I could make $50k/yr with 3wks vaca and full benefits checking groceries at the local foodmart I wouldn't have gone through the time and expense of getting an engineering degree, what would the point be? hell I didn't even get a cool little striped hat :angry:.

go ahead and go on strike, I'm pretty sure there are 1.3M illegal alians on the left coast that would glady take your place behind the counter for $6/hr....

ex-ACT-ly...

 

[Silver]

Originally posted by Andyman_1970



Out of a engineering department of 30 people, about one person is truly useless. After 9/11 our department went from 70 people to 30 in 3 weeks (i.e. we are very lean now). My group alone had 14 engineers, now it is down to one, me. Now keep in mind we went from doing 63 airplanes a year pre-9/11 to 48 a year now, so the production was reduced by 76% and the manpower 93%............does not compute.....................

Granted this is anecdotal to where I work, but as far as the aircraft industry is concerned, unions are way past their prime and are a liability to the health of the company.

Exactly my point. Your group lost 13 engineers, but your company's production is 76% of what it was, not a 76% less. 76% less would be 15 aircraft a year.

It's always easier to see faults in the "other" group of workers. The fact that you are "very lean" now is a direct product of capitalism. If you happen to be a very productive worker, you're fine with that. If not, you can always depend on "compassionate conservatism" to see you through...

 

[sshappy]

Originally posted by BostonBullit
It's all just part of the complete tail spin that is America right now, caused by people trying to make everyone "equal". you see it in affirmative action, you see it in the ADA, you see it in the tax code, and you see it on little league fields across our great land; but for some reaon people aren't seeing it as wrong. People like to say "why shouldn't we be able to live in nice houses and buy nice things just because we work as grocery checkers?" the answer? "because you're doing the same damn job I watched a 4yo do for himself at the Home Depot self checkout last night....moron" (true story). If I could make $50k/yr with 3wks vaca and full benefits checking groceries at the local foodmart I wouldn't have gone through the time and expense of getting an engineering degree, what would the point be? hell I didn't even get a cool little striped hat :angry:.

go ahead and go on strike, I'm pretty sure there are 1.3M illegal alians on the left coast that would glady take your place behind the counter for $6/hr....

So because these people are less intelligent than you they deserve a lower quality of life?

 

[BurlyShirley]

Originally posted by sshappy
So because these people are less intelligent than you they deserve a lower quality of life?

communist.

 

[sshappy]

Originally posted by BurlySurly
communist.

Mmm.

 

[maniacKIdublLA]

I work in the auto industry. I work at a plant that builds frames, then ships them to Toyota. Anybody own a tundra or sequoia( pm me if so) ??? Neither our plant or Toyota is union. We are fine without it but, the steelworkers are trying to get in. A few people think it would be nice:

Look around your office and figure out how many people are essentially useless. If it's an office with more than 20 people, I'd guess that in most places 5-10 are the ones doing the actual work.

In a round about way this is true everywhere. It seems that in our plant, the people that want the union are somewhat lazy, useless individuals. Our plant is really, really lean, and if you are new and seem to be a little lazy, then you get canned.The main reason they want a union is b/c we could get more pay. In our city you cannot go to work with a high school ed. and top out pay at $15 hr. But they see our customer Toyota top out pay is $21-22 per hour. It seems another reason to have a union is to protect the lazy. The union has to fire you,not the plant. All in all, you give people a little and they always want a little more. No offense to any union monkeys out there!

 

[CouchingTiger]

Originally posted by Toshi
i see plenty of 30 and 40 year olds working in grocery stores. sad but true.

Agreed. Given the trend in high tech lately, we here in the metro Boston RT128 high-tech belt have a boatload of former high-tech folks that are jobless and have been for a LONG time. Some folks have been out for a couple years. These people are resigning themselves to any job and thus, we see 30/40 something people working the grocery stores as clerks and baggers or at HomeDepot (if they can get in there) or at a number of other low-tech places. It's friggin sad!

-Couch

 

[Andyman_1970]

Originally posted by Silver
Exactly my point. Your group lost 13 engineers, but your company's production is 76% of what it was, not a 76% less. 76% less would be 15 aircraft a year.

Yeah I screwed that up, we are at 76% of our former production. What was your point again???

Originally posted by Silver
It's always easier to see faults in the "other" group of workers. The fact that you are "very lean" now is a direct product of capitalism. If you happen to be a very productive worker, you're fine with that. If not, you can always depend on "compassionate conservatism" to see you through...

I'm not pointing to the faluts of another group of workers, I'm pointing to the fault of the union mindset and the need for it today in modern america.

Capitalism is but one small contributor to the condition the company I work for found itself in post 9/11 (being fiscally irresponsible for years is the largest factor).

Now don't get me wrong my post describing what things are like where I work was not a big "feel sorry for me" kind of thing. I enjoy my job and feel very thankful to have it in the market that exists today. My point of camparing our white collar and blue collar workers was to show that the assumption that blue collar is "always" a low paying menial job and whilte collar workers just sit around with their feet propped up is just that - an assumption.

I do however see glaring differences between the non-union facility I work at and our union facility in Witchita. The ineffeciecies that result from the union rules are out of this world. Doing something as simple as flaring the end of say a hydraulic line (that would take all of about 15 minutes here) at the union facility takes on the order of 4 hours, and that is fast for them.

Anyway, enough of my rant.

 

[BostonBullit]

Originally posted by sshappy
So because these people are less intelligent than you they deserve a lower quality of life?

yea, pretty much. sounds harsh but it's the truth.

let's examine the issue shall we? how does one attain "a higher quality of life"? well, since most people seem to base "quality of life" on material posessions then I guess you would have to make a certain amount of money. now if everyone made a lot of money regardless of what they do then what would be the incentive for working harder or spending time to get educated in some of the more difficult disciplines? we would be a nation of grocery checkers earning $80k/yr. but the 80k/yr wouldn't end up getting you all that much because in order to pay everyone that much a loaf of bread would cost $27...so people would be complaining that they aren't making $150k/yr...and so on and so forth. some people cannot get higher paying jobs because they just plain aren't smart enough....sad but true but it doesn't mean I'm going to buy them a Lexus.

we used to have a fairly simple concept here in the US: if you want something you earn it. "I want a BMW" ok, save your pennies for a few years until you can buy one. "I want a nice house" ok, live in a ****hole for years until you can afford it. but nooo, now we have instant credit and can have whatever we want whenever we want it....what a country! YAY!

LISTEN UP: YOU ARE NOT ENTITLED TO A NICE CAR, A BIG HOUSE, OR THE LATEST DESIGNER CLOTHING. YOU ARE NOT ENTITLED TO LOBSTER DINNERS OR HIGH DEFINITION TELEVISION SETS...THESE THINGS ARE BONUSES FOR THOSE WHO EARNED THEM (or were born rich).

I love driving by the projects and seeing a pimped out escalade with 22" spinners and a custom Prada interior...makes me feel good that I bought that stuff for the guy through my 5yrs of engineering training and 60hr workweeks.

 

[Toshi]

Originally posted by BostonBullit
I love driving by the projects and seeing a pimped out escalade with 22" spinners and a custom Prada interior...makes me feel good that I bought that stuff for the guy through my 5yrs of engineering training and 60hr workweeks.

but don't worry, the repo man will come soon when that credit card debt isn't paid

i agree with BBullit's point tho: we're not living in a communist world here. you're free to choose how hard you work, how much schooling you undertake, etc. it's YOUR LIFE. and, by working hard, i expect to get rewarded as such.