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Stans Flow EX vs. Mavic EX823....or others

Discussion in 'Downhill & Freeride' started by project_d, Oct 24, 2012.

  1. project_d

    project_d Chimp

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    I run a Maxxis Minion 2.5 up front. I ran a Mavic EX823 up front for a few years and loved it. I wanted something a bit lighter, so I got a Stans Flow EX. The Minion tire on the Stans rim doesn't seem to hold up as well; it wants to wash out. I talked to a few people, and they all said to run lower pressures. That did help a bit, but it still washes out / breaks free MUCH easier than the Mavic did. I've got a feeling that the 25.5mm inside width of the Stans (versus the 23mm inside width of the Mavic) squares the tire too much. So I gotta ask...anybody having this same issue?

    Also, anybody using the DT EX500 or E530?
     

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  2. bullcrew

    bullcrew Turbo Monkey

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    Haven't noticed this, minions are a squarer profile to begin with then with a wider inside I'm sure it really squares the tread off.
    I run schwalbes that have a bit rounder profile so a wider rim only adds traction with it..running dirty dans now (cut down rear) in hard pack and kitty litter with no issues...

    I think its profile of tread being squared even more, might be wrong but haven't put a lot of thought into it either. That would probably explain why less psi allows them to roll edges in for bite.


    Edited: lol just finished reading the last sentence e about the profile also yes I think your right...

    I've used the ex500 and loved it, I have 721s laced to the i9s now and that's another great rim.

    Weight wise though its ex500, i9 enduro, and flow ex. For minions or any square profile.e tire I'd say ex500 or i9 for round or larger profile tires the flow ex I'm sure internal width plays a bigger to.e than we think with psi and tire profiles.

    Super impressed with the flow ex hoops man I slammed them in so e rocks out in east county and swore Iva have a dent or hash marks, nope stans leaked and tire took a good rash on it with a chunk but rim held...
     
    #2 -   Oct 24, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2012
  3. project_d

    project_d Chimp

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    Thanks for the quick reply. I used 721s before, and had no problems. Actually, I thought they were pretty good.

    I've heard DTs are kinda soft. I got a used wheelset for my Dh bike, and the DT rims already had a few dents in them. However, those are still pretty true. I might give the EX500 a shot.
     
  4. bullcrew

    bullcrew Turbo Monkey

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    1st: good thinking on profile I think your right,.

    I ran dt 6.1, 5.1 ex600 and ex500 the 500 and 600 had better material that dented less than the prior offerings...id have no issues running the ex500 hoops....bring a crescent wrench and straighten them out if needed. I keep one in my bag for rims, I had 3 cracks and 12 massive dents on my 721's kept going my original dt Swiss hoops didn't crack but dented really easily but with that they also straightened easily...
     
  5. Mr Nug

    Mr Nug Monkey

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    I've had a dt 6.1 a while ago and now have a fr600 - both on the rear wheel. The FR600 is definitely made of a lot tougher alloy than the 6.1. I punctured a few weeks ago on a real rough section of track and smashed the rear wheel into a square edged rock and it just chipped the alloy a bit but no dent.

    I've also just ordered a flow ex to replace my buckled and dented 5yr old front 721. Will let you know if I notice any difference in traction due to the rim width.
     
  6. marshalolson

    marshalolson Turbo Monkey

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    you went from one of the stiffest rims ever made to one of the least rigid. of course it is going to wash out more. less lateral stiffness = less ability to edge the tire.
     
  7. TWeerts

    TWeerts Monkey

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    this. the 823 is a full on DH rim. the flow ex is a feather weight dh race rim, and thats pushing it. maybe there is some rim flex, causing your static friction to be overcome by the motion of the rim relative to the hub.

    With a squarer profile, i would think that as you turn, the corner knobs are resisted by more force, not less. causing them to dig in more.
     
  8. Kntr

    Kntr Turbo Monkey

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    My Flows lasted about 10 days of resort riding and the rear was cracked at every eyelet. I've run ex500s for years on my DH and AM bikes and not a single problem. My rim of choice is ex500 hands down for a light/tough rim.

    I am running the I9 AM rims right now on my AM bike with 2.5 single ply Minions and they have lasted a season with no problems.
     
  9. marshalolson

    marshalolson Turbo Monkey

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    ^^^^agree^^^^

    more square of tire profile = more edge at a shallower lean angle.
     
  10. Sandwich

    Sandwich Pig my fish!
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    I find it difficult to believe that 2.5mm of internal width is causing a significant change in tire profile that is affecting the way your tire rides. That's 1.25mm on each side. That's so small that I would imagine manufacturer inconsistencies would negate any real world effect. Anybody with a dented rim would immediately be thrown into the woods.
     
  11. bullcrew

    bullcrew Turbo Monkey

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    I had a rock dent a rim and flew off into the rocks, does that count....wasn't because of dent and it wasn't woods...we don't really have woods here just lots of shrub like stuff that pops and cracks as you flail through it.

    I don't know of its squaring the profile, or rim flex but it would be good to see just how stiff the flow ex hoop is compared to a 721, ex500 etc...the rims in the same arena weight and profile wise...

    As far as grip I'd think the more upright the tread from the sidewall the less grip you will have as soon as you lean over it will be at the apex sooner of top/side with no more lugs angled to bite.
    On a already square profile tire this may be part of it ot not, but a tire with tread down the side leaned over will have better bite to load up.
    Just a quick thought...
     
    #11 -   Oct 25, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2012
  12. Sandwich

    Sandwich Pig my fish!
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    no it's definitely only woods. you must have gone off for some other reason, like not enough shimz or something.
     
  13. bullcrew

    bullcrew Turbo Monkey

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    Dam it, I hate the cool kids....
     
  14. Huck Banzai

    Huck Banzai Turbo Monkey

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    But with a narrower tread/round profile you get tire roll moreso as the width decreases, no?

    Where is the 'magical' rim width barrier for X and Y tire?
     
  15. bullcrew

    bullcrew Turbo Monkey

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    Don't think there is, profiles, rider style, tread pattern, rim width, psi, compound, weight and terrain vary too much to say one is better than the other...some may play better with a wider rim and softer compound where others may be opposite...
    (Of course in 2.35-2.5, I think a 2.7 benefits from a wider rim)
     
  16. kidwoo

    kidwoo Celebrating No-Pants Day

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    I find it difficult to beleive that anyone intentionally buys stans rims over mavics.
     
  17. Sandwich

    Sandwich Pig my fish!
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    but they're liiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiterrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
     
  18. canadmos

    canadmos Cake Tease

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    What about Sun Ringle MTX29's (welded)? I have a set of them on my cross country bike, and I have yet to manage to dent them. And when I say cross country bike, I mean my bike that I do everything on. I will plow over roots and whatever else gets in my way. They are a wide rim and give a nice shape to the 2.4 Ardents that I have on them. Oh, and they were only $60.
     
  19. FlipSide

    FlipSide Monkey

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    I used to agree...but since Mavic refuses to offer a 821 as a stand alone rim for trail/AM applications, I bought Stan's.
     
  20. bullcrew

    bullcrew Turbo Monkey

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    Till my stans blow up and create a earthbound black hole sucking all rim technology into it and spitting out dh30 rims on the backside I'm glad I bought them. I have i9s laced to 721s as well...
     
  21. kidwoo

    kidwoo Celebrating No-Pants Day

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    That does suck but the difference between a 19mm 819 rim and some yet to be released 21mm thing isn't enough for me to care that much. My ears will perk up when there's a trail rim in the 23mm range. In the meantime, if 21mm is your magic number, 721s really aren't that heavy. I did buy some crossmax sx wheels though....just for the overall wheel weight.

    You want to know how much different the tires looked when I took them off the 819s and put them on the 21mm SX rims?

    pretty much zero

    Once you split those stans things, your memory will be jarred ;) The 25mm width would be fvcking AWESOME in a mavic equivalent though. I'm with you there.
     
    #21 -   Oct 25, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2012
  22. mtg

    mtg Green with Envy

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    I've been thrashing a set of those for almost 3 years now. Despite the fact that the hub bearing pre-load is a PITA to keep adjusted (very fine line between too much drag, and noticeable freeplay), those things are still the most impressive wheelset I've ever had experience with.
    I think I took the spoke wrench to them a year or two ago for the heck of it. They didn't need it, and still don't need it now.

    Anyway, back to the OP's question....I've had a wheelset with 823's and a set of the silver Deemax's. Those things were also very impressive. If you want rims that you can do a race run down Angel Fire with a flat tire and still have a rim that's fine, the 823 is for you.
     
  23. kidwoo

    kidwoo Celebrating No-Pants Day

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    You probably don't want to hear this but they completely changed their hub design. The new ones are nothing like the ones you have. I haven't had a single problem on some 2011 versions.

    And yeah I've been pretty blown away with how tough the wheels as a whole are. Good stuff.
     
    #23 -   Oct 25, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2012
  24. mtg

    mtg Green with Envy

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    I have the updated ITS-4 hub, and I don't think the new white versions had any significant hub updates. Correct me if I'm wrong. You'd just think with the rest of the wheel being so optimized that they'd have bearing preload figured out.

    Here's the set I have:
     
  25. kidwoo

    kidwoo Celebrating No-Pants Day

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    They have changed a few things.

    I'd have to double check to find out what happened in what year. I do know when I bought mine, my buddy who runs a shop trying to sell them to told me I didn't want the previous years because of the rear hub. After some old crossmax wheels I had about 5 years ago, I'd pretty much sworn off mavic wheels (like most people).

    Mine stay loose rolling and definitely don't have any play in them. You running a QR or a bolt on? Mine are bolted FWIW.
     
  26. mtg

    mtg Green with Envy

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    It's good to know they've improved that system- it's the only thing I haven't liked with mine.

    Mine are set up with the 12mm bolt on axle rear, 20mm front. The front hub has the same issue, though, as did my silver Deemax's.
     
  27. kidwoo

    kidwoo Celebrating No-Pants Day

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    That doesn't sound right at all. Mavic has fvcked up their rear hubs for years but they've at least had fine front hubs.
     
  28. mtg

    mtg Green with Envy

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    Hence the complaint.

    I just checked the Mavic technical manual for the vintage of wheel that I have, and it appears that the preload system is applying axial load to deep groove ball bearings without an inner race spacer, unless there's an inner race spacer that I don't see. They use 6903 & 6805 non-angular-contact bearings (ie deep groove ball bearings), and they shouldn't have axial preload through the bearing. There should be an inner race spacer, or they should be angular contact/cup & cone.

    If that is in fact true, in the engineering world we refer to that as a bad design.
     
  29. kidwoo

    kidwoo Celebrating No-Pants Day

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    Get inside that beyotch and find out about that spacer yo!

    Let me see what I can learns tomorrow.
     
  30. project_d

    project_d Chimp

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    FWIW, I went to the LBS and talked about getting either Mavic's EN521 or DT's EX500. They only had the Mavic in stock, so I bought that. Talk about a world of difference! That rim helps the tire to grip in the turns WAY better than the Stans rim did.

    I know what people are saying about a wider tire profile and how that should grip better, blah blah blah...and to some certain degree, that may be true. All I can tell you is that I've been running a Minion up front on my Nomad for quite a while, and as soon as I put that Stans Flow EX, the tire broke free way easier than the previous rim. As soon as I put that Mavic EN521 on it, the tire instantly gripped better, and it gives me a LOT more confidence...which is a very good thing.
     
    #30 -   Oct 28, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2012