[Toshi]

...um...adding regulation to the market is a necessary at this point. All the other stuff... Unions are bringing down the auto industry, they disincentivize hard work. Social medicine? Yeah, we'll definately get the best docs that way. Low income definately makes up for 10yrs of schooling. Free education? How about actually educating our students so that by the time they hit college, they are functional adults? highschool graduates know less today than 20 years ago. Highschool level knowledge in the 60's is on par with undergrad today.
Higher taxation on the rich? Maybe on income, but if I save every penny I make from just out of school, make a few good trades, and end up with a few million in the bank, why do I have to pay taxes on my wealth? It was accrued through frugality and hard work. Why should I share that AND my income with those unwilling to work? (Not the unable, un-WILLING; obesity and obesity related diseases fall under unwilling. You have to try to hate yourself enough to not be able to work because you are so fat)

i don't think socialized medicine a la europe would dilute the pool of talent in medicine. we're not doing it for the money -- if we were we'd be in business at least pre-crash. we're certainly not doing it for the hours. are we doing it for the 6-digit student loan bills and $45,000 resident salaries for multiple years post-graduation (3-10 depending on whether extra research, field)? i think not. we do it because it's what we want to do and because no one else is allowed legally or by patients to do what we do. making x% less in return for having no loans would be just fine.

 

[Transcend]

making x% less in return for having no loans would be just fine.

This program exists now to an extend with the public health service commissioned corps doesn't it? A friend of mine is starting her residency shortly and will work for the Gov't as a doctor for a few years after in return for repayment of her school loans.

 

[TheMontashu]

It takes on average AT LEAST a year to be booted from most schools due to academic ineptitude. You go on academic probation, then get asked to leave. Then you are usually allowed to come back after a year.

And yes, "rich kids" earn their way in just like everyone else. Conspiracy theory much? My GPA out of high school wasn't extraordinarily high, but I had insane amounts of experience in the field I was going into and got accepted without so much as an interview based on my portfolio alone.

and the rich kid at the good public school (even more so from the private school) is going to get in with MUCH less effort.

You keep brining up relatively irrelevant points, you make all theses points about flaws in the system so free education won't work. I am calling for a CHANGE in the system, not just including the costs.


You are also being incredibly selfish, you had to work your ass off to get through school and because of that want as many people to work as hard as you did as possible, while ignoring the fact that the rich have it SO EASY. This is EDUCATION, not figure out how to get a hold of 100Gs if you are poor. I can't begin to understand how you have such little compassion for those who are less fortunate. It is a simple fact that many people do not go to college because of the costs, and many people also get in because there parents have money, again I will bring up that whole equal opportunity thing that should be provided by the education system.

 

[Transcend]

No, I want people to earn their successes, not have them handed to them like the "rich kids" you are complaining so incessantly about.

 

[rockwool]

not without my permission. to continue the "fruits" analogy. if i worked my butt off on my land in the field and my crop had a great yield for the season, enough to feed my family with some left over, should the surplus then become government property because my hard work gave a greater return than what my family needs to survive? or should I be allowed to decide what to do with the surplus and hand it out to whom I felt deserved/needed it instead of letting anyone with a sense of entitlement just come walk onto my field and take it?
i do believe that the wealthy have a moral and social obligation to offer some assistance to those less fortunate but i am vehemently against the government dictating where that money goes. Hence the reason i pay nothing in federal taxes out of my paycheck; i'd rather hang onto my money, let it grow somewhere and just pay uncle sam what is due him on 4/15 instead of giving him a monthly loan from my pocket.

What Samirol said above should have gotten some reflections/comments by now... As food, just like education, is a human right it is not up to each and every asshole, or saint, to give as he pleases. The UN declaration of human rights is something that your government has signed, not you, and therefore it is the one responsible to provide these things.

i want to print this thread & take it behind a middle school & smoke it.

Are you going to pass it around like charity or are you going to smoke it your self?

 

[manimal]

Why do you work as a police officer and not as a private security guard.

good question

and the people i deal with in my profession are the reason i feel the way i do. i deal with the extreme of what happens when people become dependent on government assistance. i get sick of the so-called "needy" segment of the population that prey on others, usually the truly needy, to "get theirs". i'm tired of watching well-intentioned government programs being taken advantage of and exploited by those who will never make an honest living but might have, had an honest living been the only option for survival. i'm also sick of lobbyist and corruption in politics but i know one thing for sure...none of this will change.

 

[stevew]

i want to print this thread & take it behind a middle school & smoke it.

will it make me believe that themontashu actually gives a fvck about the poor?

 

[manimal]

i don't think socialized medicine a la europe would dilute the pool of talent in medicine. we're not doing it for the money -- if we were we'd be in business at least pre-crash. we're certainly not doing it for the hours. are we doing it for the 6-digit student loan bills and $45,000 resident salaries for multiple years post-graduation (3-10 depending on whether extra research, field)? i think not. we do it because it's what we want to do and because no one else is allowed legally or by patients to do what we do. making x% less in return for having no loans would be just fine.

that's what my brother sounded like right before he started his residency. but now that he has to pay malpractice insurance, has his service fees undercut by medicare, is repaying buku student loans...etc..etc... he sings a slightly different tune. I'm sure he will be royally pissed (and rightly so) if he makes it this far in his professional life (suma cum laude from med school) only to be taxed exponentially higher as his reward for doing well....not to mention the possibility of having a government, which cannot even balance a checkbook, step in and regulate everything in his line of work? he told me that if he really buckles down he can do about 15 cataract surgeries before lunchtime on an average day and he reaps the financial reward from that hard work. so if his line of work becomes government regulated and he is only required to perform 10 surgeries PER DAY to receive his paycheck and there is no bonus for above standard performance then why would any sane person bother to work harder and see more people in a day? you can love your job all day long but i don't know anyone who would work for free after spending their entire early adult life in school.

 

[Transcend]

that's what my brother sounded like right before he started his residency. but now that he has to pay malpractice insurance, has his service fees undercut by medicare, is repaying buku student loans...etc..etc... he sings a slightly different tune. I'm sure he will be royally pissed (and rightly so) if he makes it this far in his professional life (suma cum laude from med school) only to be taxed exponentially higher as his reward for doing well....not to mention the possibility of having a government, which cannot even balance a checkbook, step in and regulate everything in his line of work? he told me that if he really buckles down he can do about 15 cataract surgeries before lunchtime on an average day and he reaps the financial reward from that hard work. so if his line of work becomes government regulated and he is only required to perform 10 surgeries PER DAY to receive his paycheck and there is no bonus for above standard performance then why would any sane person bother to work harder and see more people in a day? you can love your job all day long but i don't know anyone who would work for free after spending their entire early adult life in school.

Private practices will always exist. They do in Canada, Europe, the UK and everywhere else with Public Healthcare systems. It is not the harbinger of doom.

 

[TheMontashu]

No, I want people to earn their successes, not have them handed to them like the "rich kids" you are complaining so incessantly about.

Doing well for your grades so you can get into a good school (with free education you don't get rich kids getting in for no other reason than being rich kids, so every one there has actually earned there way in, so you get less people there who don't deserve it and you draw from a much larger pool of people when money is not an issue) you have earned it by getting into the school, I don't understand this idea you have of finding money to pay for it some how makes you earn it. Working hard in class makes you earn your education. You have money and education tied in as basically the same thing, and they are not. By my logic every one earns there success by working hard in school and getting good grades. Going by your logic you have rich kids who don't earn **** who are just given to it. And then you get people who can't afford it who have to work harder to get in, and then once in have to work much harder to find the money to pay for it.

Again you seem to be bitter, and want every one to work as hard as you did. You have it implanted in your head "I had to bust my ass to pay for school, so should every one else"

 

[Transcend]

Again you seem to be bitter, and want every one to work as hard as you did. You have it implanted in your head "I had to bust my ass to pay for school, so should every one else"

No, I'm just not a self-entitled whiny bitch and am willing to work for what I want. Unlike some in this thread, apparently.

 

[TheMontashu]

No, I'm just not a self-entitled whiny bitch and am willing to work for what I want. Unlike some in this thread, apparently.

I am willing to work for what I have and do. I just have a ferm belief in this idea called EQUALITY. Every one should have an EQUAL OPERTUNITY. If rich people had as much trouble as poor people in getting into and paying for school I wouldn't have a problem.

You know what forget it, you are all for keeping poor people poor and allowing rich people all the power and education. I'm done arguing with you, you think this is all about entitlement, and you know what, if your work hard enough to get into school YOU ARE ENTITLED TO GO. Rich kids get in doing nothing and don't have to lift a finger to get in, while poor people have to work there ass off. This is not the country club we are talking about, this is peoples ability to get educated and find a good job, why should the rich have more access to education and opportunity than the poor?

Again I'm done, when you can stop being bitter you had to work for your schooling and realize that the system as it sits now DISCRIMINATES, against the poor we can talk.

 

[Transcend]

Ya you keep thinking that. Rich man is keeping you down!

Also, quoted for funny:

ferm belief...Every one...EQUAL OPERTUNITY...there ass off...peoples ability

Not to be rude, but have you ever thought maybe it's something else, like your horrible spelling and grammar, keeping you down?

I know that at all the schools I attended, terrible spelling and grammar on papers and exams would cause you to fail the course, let alone get an entrance scholarship. Just sayin'.

 

[TheMontashu]

Ya you keep thinking that. Rich man is keeping you down!

Also, quoted for funny:


Not to be rude, but have you ever thought maybe it's something else, like your horrible spelling and grammar, keeping you down?

I know that at all the schools I attended, terrible spelling and grammar on papers and exams would cause you to fail the course, let alone get an entrance scholarship. Just I sayin'.

I got into U Wisconsin Madison......
I also have a 3.9 right now at the school I'm at now and will be up for early transfer to UC Berkeley at the end of the semester.

Now not to be rude or anything but, you need to stop judging people you have never met. and go Fvck yourself.

People now also use these things called computers, that have this thing called spell check. Not to mention my impeccable grammar in essays, and on exams.

 

[manimal]

I am willing to work for what I have and do. I just have a ferm belief in this idea called EQUALITY. Every one should have an EQUAL OPERTUNITY. If rich people had as much trouble as poor people in getting into and paying for school I wouldn't have a problem.

so what happens when EVERYONE goes to college and the standards are lowered in order to make it "equal" so that EVERYONE can pass (a la community college)? then what happens when these droves of college educated yungins' try to find their "good job" and realize that someone still has to do the low paying crap work?

 

[Transcend]

So spell check is your reasoning for not being able to be halfway competent at english? Awesome.

Yet more of the same. "I don't need to learn how to spell and speak proper english, my computer will do it for me!"

Ps: Your computer does not know the difference between their and there, but you should!

 

[Transcend]

so what happens when EVERYONE goes to college and the standards are lowered in order to make it "equal" so that EVERYONE can pass (a la community college)? then what happens when these droves of college educated yungins' try to find their "good job" and realize that someone still has to do the low paying crap work?

What happens? His post above happens.

Also, can you actually fail out of community college? I don't even think that is possible.

 

[TheMontashu]

so what happens when EVERYONE goes to college and the standards are lowered in order to make it "equal" so that EVERYONE can pass (a la community college)? then what happens when these droves of college educated yungins' try to find their "good job" and realize that someone still has to do the low paying crap work?

I'm not saying EVERYONE gets to go to college. I am saying that if you work hard and get accepted then you should be able to go to school. By taking money out of the equation you get a bigger pool of applicants, for the same number of spots, actually raising the standard. Not every one deserves to get into college, but every one deserves the same OPERTUNITY to go. I'm not (and never would) suggest we give hand outs to lazy people, I'm saying we need to give everyone and equal chance at success. whether or not people take it is up to them

 

[Transcend]

Not every one deserves to get into college, but every one deserves the same OPERTUNITY to go.

People in glass houses...

 

[TheMontashu]

So spell check is your reasoning for not being able to be halfway competent at english? Awesome.

Yet more of the same. "I don't need to learn how to spell and speak proper english, my computer will do it for me!"

Ps: Your computer does not know the difference between their and there, but you should!

I do know the difference between, their and there, as well as whether and weather. My grasp of the english language is far better than demonstrated on RM. Sorry if I don't feel like taking the time to write a masterpiece every time I post on here.

And now I'm done with the childish insults. I have a strange feeling you don't run your mouth like this in real life, If you want to come insult me, please the one thing I ask is that you are going to insult me do it to my face.

 

[Transcend]

This thread has officially turned hilarious. I'm out.

Once more, for good times' sake:

EQUAL OPERTUNITY

 

[stoney]

You want to bitch and complain about being oppressed?
My grandfather was born in a poor farming community in Iowa, as one of 8. There were mulitple other siblings that were still-born. He joined the military to get out of Iowa. He took advantage of the GI bill and got an education. He passed that drive of hard-work onto my father, who was also born in a small framing community in Iowa. He worked his way through college and got a job as a low level electrical engineer. He had my sister and me, while also living in a moderate sized farming community in Iowa. He took a huge risk to follow an opportunity in California with Rockwell Aeronautics. We lived with friends for a while, then lived in a van for a fw months while he saved up enough to get money together for a deposit to rent a decent 2-br house for the three of us. He rode his bike to work, leaving at 4am and returning at 7pm every day, to save money for my sister and me to go to college. He instilled in us that we have to bust our ass to get into a good college so we could live a good life.
We both busted our asses in school and got into good colleges, I managed to get into Cal for athletics, but my grades were good enough to get me in. I had to work through college to pay for everything beyod rent and tuition; food, books, clothes, etc.
After graduation, I had a job that would take me down a longterm high income path, but paid next to nothing starting out. I lived on couches and my pickup truck, begging people for food, occasionally having to go to the shelters in Berkeley to eat dinner.
It's been five years since I graduated college, and I am where I am at now because I BUSTED MY ASS to get there.
I've paid my debts to friends and donate my time/money to help out in the shelters that once helped me out, because I realize they were the prop that allowed me to work as hard as I did to get where I am. Would I have worked as hard if it had all been given to me? Who knows. Do I know the value of every penny I make and every good deed? Yes. Does everyone deserve the opportunity? Yes.
that being said, those who truly want it, will get it. That want, that desire to succeed is what makes you succeed.

Why the long tirade? Montashu, how hard do you have it? How much do your parents make? How are you paying for school? Do you go out to dinner? How did you afford your fancy V-10 with the super light-weight parts just 3-4 years ago? If you are bitching about the cost of schooling now, but could afford a $5k lightweight race bike, you obviously didn't want it that bad. If you did, you would have given up the bike to meet your end goal...

 

[TheMontashu]

You want to bitch and complain about being oppressed?
My grandfather was born in a poor farming community in Iowa, as one of 8. There were mulitple other siblings that were still-born. He joined the military to get out of Iowa. He took advantage of the GI bill and got an education. He passed that drive of hard-work onto my father, who was also born in a small framing community in Iowa. He worked his way through college and got a job as a low level electrical engineer. He had my sister and me, while also living in a moderate sized farming community in Iowa. He took a huge risk to follow an opportunity in California with Rockwell Aeronautics. We lived with friends for a while, then lived in a van for a fw months while he saved up enough to get money together for a deposit to rent a decent 2-br house for the three of us. He rode his bike to work, leaving at 4am and returning at 7pm every day, to save money for my sister and me to go to college. He instilled in us that we have to bust our ass to get into a good college so we could live a good life.
We both busted our asses in school and got into good colleges, I managed to get into Cal for athletics, but my grades were good enough to get me in. I had to work through college to pay for everything beyod rent and tuition; food, books, clothes, etc.
After graduation, I had a job that would take me down a longterm high income path, but paid next to nothing starting out. I lived on couches and my pickup truck, begging people for food, occasionally having to go to the shelters in Berkeley to eat dinner.
It's been five years since I graduated college, and I am where I am at now because I BUSTED MY ASS to get there.
I've paid my debts to friends and donate my time/money to help out in the shelters that once helped me out, because I realize they were the prop that allowed me to work as hard as I did to get where I am. Would I have worked as hard if it had all been given to me? Who knows. Do I know the value of every penny I make and every good deed? Yes. Does everyone deserve the opportunity? Yes.
that being said, those who truly want it, will get it. That want, that desire to succeed is what makes you succeed.

Why the long tirade? Montashu, how hard do you have it? How much do your parents make? How are you paying for school? Do you go out to dinner? How did you afford your fancy V-10 with the super light-weight parts just 3-4 years ago? If you are bitching about the cost of schooling now, but could afford a $5k lightweight race bike, you obviously didn't want it that bad. If you did, you would have given up the bike to meet your end goal...

you are missing my point, you bring up how hard you had to work to overcome adversity, and all that is great. What I am saying is that they system makes it much easier on the wealthy and that is wrong. You are going off the premise that you did X Y and Z in the system so thats the way it is and should be. The system is fundamentally flawed and you fail to understand that. You went through a system that flawed and now because of that you think "I had to bust my ass to pay for school, so should every one else."

Am I the only one who sees the injustice in the availability of education to those with less money??

My perent's don't make ****, my dad is a cabinet maker and my mom's work is very unreliable. I'm going to junior college right now, so I am fortunate to have cheep tuition. I don't go out to eat for dinner, I don't spend money on expensive things (besides my bike) I paid for my V10 entirely out of my own pocket, my parents do not, and never have supported my riding financially, I work very hard for my bikes and have earned every cent of ever one.

 

[stoney]

I don't spend money on expensive things (besides my bike) I paid for my V10 entirely out of my own pocket, my parents do not, and never have supported my riding financially, I work very hard for my bikes and have earned every cent of ever one.

If school was more important and the cost is the limiting factor, you would not have bought your bikes.

I ride a used 2002 Giant NRS 3, I can afford whatever I want.

That is the difference between us and our view of the world.

I know what I can afford and live well below that level; I can buy things that are important to me and get by with "good enough" for other.

You know what you can't afford and live at that level, bitching aout not being able to afford it. If school is as important to you as you say, you would not be riding your expensive bike. You never would have bought them.

 

[TheMontashu]

If school was more important and the cost is the limiting factor, you would not have bought your bikes.

I ride a used 2002 Giant NRS 3, I can afford whatever I want.

That is the difference between us and our view of the world.

I know what I can afford and live well below that level; I can buy things that are important to me and get by with "good enough" for other.

You know what you can't afford and live at that level, bitching aout not being able to afford it. If school is as important to you as you say, you would not be riding your expensive bike. You never would have bought them.

Yes I'm irrisponsible with my money because at 16 instead of putting that money to offset the cost (after tuition, books, and living costs well over 100K) of school I put it towards a bike. Even though at 16 most kids are spending every sent they get on useless crap like eating out, going to movies, and buying cloths at the mall. Not to mention the fact that my family's financial situation has got a whole lot worse since I bought that bike.

I'm don't arguing with you to, it's clear that you fail to understand why how well in you do in SCHOOL should be the determination and only determination on which you receive your HIGHER EDUCATION (MORE SCHOOL) Something about money (an issue that actually has nothing to do with the idea of education in it of itself) being another determining factor in what SCHOOL you can go to. Remember not every one has money (many in this country live paycheck to paycheck, more than 20% of the country lives on less than 20K a year) so it then becomes a determining factor in going to school. Remember, (In theory) money has nothing to do with being qualified to attend a school.

 

[Defenestrated]

You guys are bashing Montashu for advocating free education?

God forbid wanting every person to be provided with the proper tools with which to live up to their potential as a human being FREE of charge right?

You gotta pay to play right guys?

Some of you are rather inward individuals.

 

[Serial Midget]

Working hard in class makes you earn your education.

Not always - some people reach the limit of their potential before leaving high school...

Anyhow, a formal education is not a guarantee of future success - it just means you met minimum expectations of the masses and are ready for a career in insurance.

 

[Serial Midget]

Actually no... quality education has always been available to those resourceful enough to see past their own nose. Its all in how you view the realities of life - as obstacles or opportunities. Some people get the job done, some people bitch about having to work.

You guys are bashing Montashu for advocating free education?

God forbid wanting every person to be provided with the proper tools with which to live up to their potential as a human being FREE of charge right?

You gotta pay to play right guys?

Some of you are rather inward individuals.

 

[splat]

You guys are bashing Montashu for advocating free education?

Well lets see there is free education , through the 12 th grade.

Ok so you want more Ok Where do you draw the line that enough is enough or do we pay for the guy who just milks the system and has 16 Different PhD's because he wants to live off the education system and never get out and produce in society ? and don't think there aren't people who do that now, you are sadly mistaken if you do.

 

[Samirol]

In Scandinavia, some countries have it where students are given money each month to go to school, and the result is that they have a much more educated workforce. Some people DO stay longer, but many leave to do other things.

We shouldn't draw the line at all.

Just look at the difference in average pay between high-school educated people and college-educated, in a vast majority of situations, college is the road to monetary success.

 

[Toshi]

that's what my brother sounded like right before he started his residency. but now that he has to pay malpractice insurance, has his service fees undercut by medicare, is repaying buku student loans...etc..etc... he sings a slightly different tune. I'm sure he will be royally pissed (and rightly so) if he makes it this far in his professional life (suma cum laude from med school) only to be taxed exponentially higher as his reward for doing well....not to mention the possibility of having a government, which cannot even balance a checkbook, step in and regulate everything in his line of work? he told me that if he really buckles down he can do about 15 cataract surgeries before lunchtime on an average day and he reaps the financial reward from that hard work. so if his line of work becomes government regulated and he is only required to perform 10 surgeries PER DAY to receive his paycheck and there is no bonus for above standard performance then why would any sane person bother to work harder and see more people in a day? you can love your job all day long but i don't know anyone who would work for free after spending their entire early adult life in school.

did you miss my point about not having student loans if we had socialized medicine? part of that deal, and how it is in other countries, is that higher education is free so people don't come out in huge amounts of debt as here. and no one mentioned "work[ing] for free", just taking a haircut, as it were.

ps: it's "beaucoup".

 

[sanjuro]

i don't think socialized medicine a la europe would dilute the pool of talent in medicine. we're not doing it for the money -- if we were we'd be in business at least pre-crash. we're certainly not doing it for the hours. are we doing it for the 6-digit student loan bills and $45,000 resident salaries for multiple years post-graduation (3-10 depending on whether extra research, field)? i think not. we do it because it's what we want to do and because no one else is allowed legally or by patients to do what we do. making x% less in return for having no loans would be just fine.

I noticed in the paper about a lawsuit against Cigna, which they agreed to pay for a teenager's leukemia treatment after a protest in front of their office, which was hours too late.

I've noticed fundraisers for people who require expensive medical care, no matter what their income may be. What is surprising is the stories of fairly well-off families whose medical insurance will not cover the bills when it hits the thousands of dollars.

I think it is a tragedy that there is price tag for life, a cut off amount for medical treatment.

Now I know we could analyze every case and find some way to argue for or again "socialized medicine", but I believe when the courts set a precedent for suing insurance companies for withholding treatment strictly for cost reasons, you will see a change in the way we insurance companies operate and how quickly we move to public health care.

 

[Defenestrated]

Actually no... quality education has always been available to those resourceful enough to see past their own nose. Its all in how you view the realities of life - as obstacles or opportunities. Some people get the job done, some people bitch about having to work.

You can't go to college unless you have the money to pay for tuition.

Equal opportunity in education won't exist until either everyone has the same amount of money to spend, or education is free.

Now if you are anti-equal opportunity that is a whole new can of worms.

 

[Serial Midget]

If "college" is the only educational opportunity you'll be satisfied with then get yourself a job and work your way through - the sooner the better because it ain't going to free anytime soon.

You can't go to college unless you have the money to pay for tuition.

 

[Defenestrated]

If "college" is the only educational opportunity you'll be satisfied with then get yourself a job and work your way through - the sooner the better because it ain't going to free anytime soon.

The real question is, should it be like that?

 

[splat]

The real question is, should it be like that?

Yes, I think it should. this coming from some one who is trying to figure out how he is going to pay for his 2 kids in the not to distant future.

Ok lets go this then.

so you want free educations , what about then required military service ?

How about this for every year in college a Year in the military ?

 

[Samirol]

I think finland has a year required military or public service, but they use their military to do stuff like help people in snow banks and stuff like that, not brainwash their recruits into being unthinking killing machines to go off and fight in bull**** wars.

 

[johnbryanpeters]

Yes, I think it should. this coming from some one who is trying to figure out how he is going to pay for his 2 kids in the not to distant future.

Ok lets go this then.

so you want free educations , what about then required military service ?

How about this for every year in college a Year in the military ?

No.

A year in public service, fine. The military could be one option among many.

I don't necessarily believe that education should be free, but I believe that it should be affordable.

 

[manimal]

I think finland has a year required military or public service, but they use their military to do stuff like help people in snow banks and stuff like that, not brainwash their recruits into being unthinking killing machines to go off and fight in bull**** wars.

of course you've been in the military and this statement is from experience right?

 

[rockwool]

Yes, I think it should. this coming from some one who is trying to figure out how he is going to pay for his 2 kids in the not to distant future.

Ok lets go this then.

so you want free educations , what about then required military service ?

How about this for every year in college a Year in the military ?

About 1000 of your people have been killed in Iraq each year, do you as a father really want to send your kids there for 4-5 years before they can be able to go to U?