[manimal]

No.

A year in public service, fine. The military could be one option among many.

I don't necessarily believe that education should be free, but I believe that it should be affordable.

exactly. most of my education was paid for via the G.I. Bill but you know what...I earned it through 5 years of service. i went into the service because i wasn't ready for college when i graduated high school and the military was a great way for me to get some structure in my life. now that i have that experience under my belt i'm able to handle a full time class load and maintain a 3.6 gpa at a tough private college all while working 50+ hours per week AND raising 3 kids. i'm sorry but i just can't empathize with the montashu's of the world who think they have it tough because they might have to work some on the side to make their goals come to fruition. yes, college should be more affordable but having to "earn" your way into college kind of helps to weed out those who wouldn't have the drive for it anyway. i have yet to meet a disadvantaged teenager who couldn't get into college simply because of a lack of funds. i have met plenty of disadvantaged kids who couldn't get into college because they didn't do anything in high school and had crappy grades.
with the exception of jobs in engineering, medicine,law....the whole point of college isn't necessarily to make you an enlightened genius, the point is to prove to an employer that you are resourceful and diligent enough to complete a task given to you. so if you're not diligent and resourceful enough to figure out a way to pay for college, you probably wouldn't be a good employee anyway.

 

[Samirol]

of course you've been in the military and this statement is from experience right?

Welp I guess I can't comment on politics since I haven't run for office either

 

[dan-o]

Welp I guess I can't comment on politics since I haven't run for office either

Don't take this personally, but you could use a healthy serving of life-experience. Book learning is great but until you can apply it to reality you're just regurgitating other peoples ideas.

 

[manimal]

About 1000 of your people have been killed in Iraq each year, do you as a father really want to send your kids there for 4-5 years before they can be able to go to U?

meh...some people are born to be warriors while others bask in the protection afforded by said warriors and talk trash about something they will never understand. it's always nice to be a pacifist when you know someone else will fight for you.

 

[bohorec]

meh...some people are born to be warriors while others bask in the protection afforded by said warriors and talk trash about something they will never understand. it's always nice to be a pacifist when you know someone else will fight for you.

Wait, troops were there fighting for rockwool?

 

[manimal]

Wait, troops were there fighting for rockwool?

yup...just for him.

the point is, there will always be a military and there will always be people willing to serve in the military. i was making reference to the type of people who choose to serve based on the principle of service to your country that some people still believe in.

 

[Samirol]

meh...some people are born to be warriors while others bask in the protection afforded by said warriors and talk trash about something they will never understand. it's always nice to be a pacifist when you know someone else will fight for you.

I'm not bashing the individual soldiers, since some go into the armed forces for economic reasons, but the institution in general is evil.

 

[manimal]

I'm not bashing the individual soldiers, since some go into the armed forces for economic reasons, but the institution in general is evil.

ee-vil from the frue-its of the deh-veel?


edit: i'm sad to say that you have much to learn about the world and why the military is a necessary "evil". you can quote whatever book you've read about how we're all baby killers and do no good but, until you've sat through an intelligence meeting detailing the threats to our country posed by a myriad of fronts, foreign and domestic, after a two week stint in the field helping gather said information, you really have no room to talk. you can be as peaceful and pacifistic as you wish but your well wishes and goodwill can do nothing to stop the evil that is forced upon us from others who don't share your worldview and wish to wipe us off of the map.

 

[Serial Midget]

You bring up a good point - your military service obligation should be fulfilled prior to completing higher education that way, should you not be fortunate enough to make it through, educational resources can be spent on those that make it out alive.

About 1000 of your people have been killed in Iraq each year, do you as a father really want to send your kids there for 4-5 years before they can be able to go to U?

 

[Serial Midget]

the point is to prove to an employer that you are resourceful and diligent enough to complete a task given to you. so if you're not diligent and resourceful enough to figure out a way to pay for college, you probably wouldn't be a good employee anyway.

Bingo!!! Manimal for the KILL!!!







I meant "win"...

 

[rockwool]

meh...some people are born to be warriors while others bask in the protection afforded by said warriors and talk trash about something they will never understand. it's always nice to be a pacifist when you know someone else will fight for you.

And some people are born sheep.

I'm not a pacifist doo, I'm a shuv it up your culo kind a guy if your shepherd ships your ass over here. I'm not only Greek brought up by activist parents, but relatives of mine were also partizans during WWII. Uprising, rebelion and strugle is deep rooted in my soul. Some +3500 years old, and we're tought our history good.

I'm not bashing the individual soldiers, since some go into the armed forces for economic reasons, but the institution in general is evil.

A system wich creates needs for its citizens to go kill and opress in foreign countries only so that they can afford to go to collage. Although, personal responsibility can not be overlooked, we all make choises out of free will.

ee-vil from the frue-its of the deh-veel?


edit: i'm sad to say that you have much to learn about the world and why the military is a necessary "evil". you can quote whatever book you've read about how we're all baby killers and do no good but, until you've sat through an intelligence meeting detailing the threats to our country posed by a myriad of fronts, foreign and domestic, after a two week stint in the field helping gather said information, you really have no room to talk. you can be as peaceful and pacifistic as you wish but your well wishes and goodwill can do nothing to stop the evil that is forced upon us from others who don't share your worldview and wish to wipe us off of the map.

Mötley Crew?

You're not babykillers, you're redcoats, and today Davy Crocket is a Taliban or an Iraqi resistance member. Babies do get killed but surely 99% of them are collateral damage, so God bless your souls, and God bless body count as it's the only way to messure suffering. Did those intelligence meetings talk about WMD's in Iraq? Did they say that Iraq constituted a threat to US borders? Or did they just say that Iraq is part of "US interests" and that it's therefore OK to conquer them?

"The evil that is forced upon us from others who don't share your worldview and wish to wipe us off of the map". Right now it is you, the US, that is forcing your self in foreign countries and on its peoples, not the other way around. It's you, the US, that is forcing YOUR world view on others! You are the ones wiping people of the map. THIS IS NEWSPEAK!

"A myriad of fronts, foreign and domestic". You need to read more doo, so that you won't be so easily manipulated. Start with 1984 by George Orwell, it's right on the topic of "a myriad of fronts, foreign and domestic".

 

[rockwool]

You bring up a good point - your military service obligation should be fulfilled prior to completing higher education that way, should you not be fortunate enough to make it through, educational resources can be spent on those that make it out alive.

aGREE, it's a waste of resources otherwise.

 

[manimal]

Bingo!!! Manimal for the KILL!!!







I meant "win"...

eh..either way i heard "kill"

you know, military brainwashing and all.

 

[Silver]

you can be as peaceful and pacifistic as you wish but your well wishes and goodwill can do nothing to stop the evil that is forced upon us from others who don't share your worldview and wish to wipe us off of the map.

This is just utter bull****.

Who exactly even has the ability to "wipe us off the map"?

Russia. That's the entire list right there. One country. No body else has the capability, so it's stupid to talk about their wishes as if they are reasonable goals.

 

[splat]

This is just utter bull****.

Who exactly even has the ability to "wipe us off the map"?

He didn't say they had the ability , he said they wanted to. if we didn't have a military to stop them what would ?

 

[manimal]

This is just utter bull****.

Who exactly even has the ability to "wipe us off the map"?

Russia. That's the entire list right there. One country. No body else has the capability, so it's stupid to talk about their wishes as if they are reasonable goals.

in the context of the argument [the military is evil (ie: unnecessary)] what you said just proves my point even further. why is there only 1 country with the ability to wipe us off the map? uh...maybe because we have the military? and wiping us off the map isn't synonymous with just a nuclear holocaust, i'm talking about full on terrorist acts that will disrupt america so deeply on an emotional and financial level that our country (read: way of life) would cease to exists as we know it.

 

[TheMontashu]

This is just utter bull****.

Who exactly even has the ability to "wipe us off the map"?

Russia. That's the entire list right there. One country. No body else has the capability, so it's stupid to talk about their wishes as if they are reasonable goals.

The big bad terrorists are going to do it from a bunch of bombed out caves.

 

[Samirol]

Manimal, bin Laden said that he wanted the U.S. to invade the Middle East in response to 9/11. The reason is so they can bleed us dry over there, because it is much easier to do a repeat of the Soviet Union invasion of Afghanistan than repeats of 9/11.

We spend as much as the entire rest of the world does on our military, that is beyond excessive.

 

[manimal]

"A myriad of fronts, foreign and domestic". You need to read more doo, so that you won't be so easily manipulated. Start with 1984 by George Orwell, it's right on the topic of "a myriad of fronts, foreign and domestic".

excellent book that i read while deployed in africa where i was helping to keep ethiopians and eritreans from killing each other over a few miles of border. you know, imposing my world view of anti-genocide upon the poor unarmed sheep http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eritrean-Ethiopian_War
i read quite a bit but probably not as much as you "doo" because i was busy getting out and experiencing the world instead of just reading about it at home amongst a cloud of smoke.

 

[manimal]

The big bad terrorists are going to do it from a bunch of bombed out caves.

wow, you're dumber than i thought. it's ok, you can leave the real threat forcasting work up to us folks that have this thing called "life experience" and "professional training"...something you can't really get from community college at 19 years old.

 

[TheMontashu]

wow, you're dumber than i thought. it's ok, you can leave the real threat forcasting work up to us folks that have this thing called "life experience" and "professional training"...something you can't really get from community college at 19 years old.

I was being entirely sarcastic..... Though that was the line we were given, that and there big bad supporters in Iraq, who actually HATED al qaeda and wanted nothing to do with them.

Are these the folks, with "life experience" you are speaking of, cause the lied to us, and have caused the deaths of hundreds of thousands.

Military experience does not necessarily give the best perspective either. People in the military have been taught 1 way to deal with conflict, and that is through violence. People who have not served in the military are going to be less likely to use force.

 

[Serial Midget]

People who have not served in the military are going to be less likely to use force.

I think you have it bass ackwards there son... people who have served in the military and have been trained in combat are more likely to use their heads first and force as a last resort.

 

[rockwool]

He didn't say they had the ability , he said they wanted to. if we didn't have a military to stop them what would ?

Them? Attack you with what? Look man, the USSR had the means to attack and destroy the big mighty armed forces of Sweden, did they? And Finland, that's even closer and had like half the equipment of us (and 2/3 the manpower), did they get invaded for all post WWII years? Non of us were NATO members, so we were on our own if it would have pleased them to do so.

Silly speak, ain't it?

EDIT: So that you'll get a perspective of what we're speaking here, according to Jane's, in 1991 Swedens total military budget equaled that of what the US Army spent on SOF that year!!! Nobody invaded us.

Manimal, bin Laden said that he wanted the U.S. to invade the Middle East in response to 9/11. The reason is so they can bleed us dry over there, because it is much easier to do a repeat of the Soviet Union invasion of Afghanistan than repeats of 9/11.

We spend as much as the entire rest of the world does on our military, that is beyond excessive.

That's some good knowledge right there!
I say that if Dick Cheeny and Rumsfeld didn't want US troops to know this they would just order it to be left out of intelligence briefings, right? They tell the men what they need to hear so they will walk their path, thus making them feel better informed than they ever were as they didn't read enough to analyze the situation by them selves.

With your old budget of $480bn/yr you spent 48% of the entire sum laid on the military. With the new budget of $700bn, who knows...

I was being entirely sarcastic..... Though that was the line we were given, that and there big bad supporters in Iraq, who actually HATED al qaeda and wanted nothing to do with them.

Are these the folks, with "life experience" you are speaking of, cause the lied to us, and have caused the deaths of hundreds of thousands.

Military experience does not necessarily give the best perspective either. People in the military have been taught 1 way to deal with conflict, and that is through violence. People who have not served in the military are going to be less likely to use force.

Good questions.

They sure sold Iraq on you with pure lies. Seems like those intelligence meetings didn't do much for the sheep, when tsóban whisstled the bells sure started tolling.

Actually, only the UK/US imposed through UN embargo post Gulf War I uptil the invasion in 2003 is said to have claimed up to 2mn people. But even if we take the source with the most moderate number of 1mn and add those that have died during the occupaton, we surely must have passed 1.5mn by now.

Manimal, is that the world view US imperialist supporters want; millions of dead people? And there's more to come, it's a "never ending war", right?

 

[TheMontashu]

I think you have it bass ackwards there son... people who have served in the military and have been trained in combat are more likely to use their heads first and force as a last resort.

I disagree, I think some one who is trained in diplomacy, will work better at diplomacy, than some one trained in war.

 

[$tinkle]

I disagree, I think some one who is trained in diplomacy, will work better at diplomacy, than some one trained in war.

we didn't go to the firing range to talk someone down off a wall, but to hit center mass.

and without hesitation.

 

[splat]

I disagree, I think some one who is trained in diplomacy, will work better at diplomacy, than some one trained in war.

Diplomacy only works when you have something to back it up.

ever herd of "Speak Softly and Carry a Big Stick" ?

 

[Samirol]

Diplomacy only works when you have something to back it up.

ever herd of "Speak Softly and Carry a Big Stick" ?

There is more to power than the military, the most expensive military in the world can't even take Afghanistan fully.

Times have changed, and a military is worth less and less.

 

[$tinkle]

sure we can.
just b/c we haven't means we're still treading lightly & are fwd thinking (fwiw)

 

[Samirol]

sure we can.
just b/c we haven't means we're still treading lightly & are fwd thinking (fwiw)

We just want to lure bin Laden into a sense of security, that's why we haven't caught him yet

 

[TheMontashu]

Diplomacy only works when you have something to back it up.

ever herd of "Speak Softly and Carry a Big Stick" ?

Indeed I have, but we seem to be letting our leaders skip the speaking softly part, If you read our stated white house policy of international relations its basically, if we decide you are a terrorist, are helping terrorists, or might in the future be or help terrorists then we have the right to invade.....

 

[johnbryanpeters]

...with the exception of jobs in engineering, medicine,law....the whole point of college isn't necessarily to make you an enlightened genius, the point is to prove to an employer that you are resourceful and diligent enough to complete a task given to you. so if you're not diligent and resourceful enough to figure out a way to pay for college, you probably wouldn't be a good employee anyway.

I think I would have had a hell of a time paying for college without the GI bill. Could have done it, but it would have been very tough.

I'm not quite ready to credit the Army with having given me structure in my life, beyond a practical introduction to realpolitik within a totalitarian structure of command. I was not and am not convinced that I was helping to save the world from the commies.

I do agree with your thoughtful and diligent criteria, just can't quite formulate a way to measure them in every case.

 

[rockwool]

in the context of the argument [the military is evil (ie: unnecessary)] what you said just proves my point even further. why is there only 1 country with the ability to wipe us off the map? uh...maybe because we have the military? and wiping us off the map isn't synonymous with just a nuclear holocaust, i'm talking about full on terrorist acts that will disrupt america so deeply on an emotional and financial level that our country (read: way of life) would cease to exists as we know it.

The reason you are stating here is the reason why a defence is needed. Having a military budget of world conquest proportion, and actually in reality doing just that; conquering the world, is two separate things. The US could defend it self with a budget of, lets pick a high number, $50bn/yr.

Withdrawing it's military from all foreign countries, i.e. ending the 4th Reich, would also end the motive of a foreign country to want to retailiate on US soil. You're causing your own fears and possible terror retaliation in your own country.

And I hope that you with the above words aren't advocating the right of existance of the 4th Reich...

excellent book that i read while deployed in africa where i was helping to keep ethiopians and eritreans from killing each other over a few miles of border. you know, imposing my world view of anti-genocide upon the poor unarmed sheep http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eritrean-Ethiopian_War
i read quite a bit but probably not as much as you "doo" because i was busy getting out and experiencing the world instead of just reading about it at home amongst a cloud of smoke.

nort: hey doo, you know why they call me Peoples?

You make it sound like you was on a UN peace mission while forgetting that the US is a major force in causing troubles on that continent, out of business reasons of course. They don't move a fin if it isn't in "US interests"; expanding markets for their multinational corporations and securing future energy supplies.
While having said that, it don't mean that you didn't do some good while you where there, bringing some calm between Badboy and Deathrow Records, but the real reason you was there was probably kept away from you (like with Iraq et al).

Ever felt like you've been in a situation all cought up in the middle of the heat, and you wish you could get out of it somehow to get a view from above? You know, like a coach looking at his team play but finds it nessesary to go high up in the arena to get that overview he lacked by the line. Well, he would lack the possibility to overview and asess things even more if he was cought up plaing the game.

That said, you definately get an experiance from being one of the players, like you were, but political things and conflicts that we're talking about, are not desided on the ground among the GI Joes, but way up high at home.

wow, you're dumber than i thought. it's ok, you can leave the real threat forcasting work up to us folks that have this thing called "life experience" and "professional training"...something you can't really get from community college at 19 years old.

Some of you proffesional folks were the ones spreading all those lies that caused this catastrophe for the Iraqi people. The other some of you guys were those who even though you knew those intel reports were false (those that the Admin pushed), let them lead you, like sheep, into an injust war to commit attrocities on the Iraqis.

 

[sanjuro]

The reason you are stating here is the reason why a defence is needed. Having a military budget of world conquest proportion, and actually in reality doing just that; conquering the world, is two separate things. The US could defend it self with a budget of, lets pick a high number, $50bn/yr.

Withdrawing it's military from all foreign countries, i.e. ending the 4th Reich, would also end the motive of a foreign country to want to retailiate on US soil. You're causing your own fears and possible terror retaliation in your own country.

And I hope that you with the above words aren't advocating the right of existance of the 4th Reich...




nort: hey doo, you know why they call me Peoples?

You make it sound like you was on a UN peace mission while forgetting that the US is a major force in causing troubles on that continent, out of business reasons of course. They don't move a fin if it isn't in "US interests"; expanding markets for their multinational corporations and securing future energy supplies.
While having said that, it don't mean that you didn't do some good while you where there, bringing some calm between Badboy and Deathrow Records, but the real reason you was there was probably kept away from you (like with Iraq et al).

Ever felt like you've been in a situation all cought up in the middle of the heat, and you wish you could get out of it somehow to get a view from above? You know, like a coach looking at his team play but finds it nessesary to go high up in the arena to get that overview he lacked by the line. Well, he would lack the possibility to overview and asess things even more if he was cought up plaing the game.

That said, you definately get an experiance from being one of the players, like you were, but political things and conflicts that we're talking about, are not desided on the ground among the GI Joes, but way up high at home.




Some of you proffesional folks were the ones spreading all those lies that caused this catastrophe for the Iraqi people. The other some of you guys were those who even though you knew those intel reports were false (those that the Admin pushed), let them lead you, like sheep, into an injust war to commit attrocities on the Iraqis.

First of all, you know are you speaking for yourself when you talking about the Fourth Reich.

Secondly, a friend's band named their album The Fifth Reich, which I never understood since they are not nazis or racists. I was mildly embarassed when I worked the merch table.

Finally, if we pulled our military out of all foreign nations, the Russians, the Georgians, the Libyans, the North Koreans, the Chinese, the Taliban, etc would have a field day.

I do think we should pull out of Iraq though.

 

[Toshi]

First of all, you know are you speaking for yourself when you talking about the Fourth Reich.

Secondly, a friend's band named their album The Fifth Reich, which I never understood since they are not nazis or racists. I was mildly embarassed when I worked the merch table.

Finally, if we pulled our military out of all foreign nations, the Russians, the Georgians, the Libyans, the North Koreans, the Chinese, the Taliban, etc would have a field day.

I do think we should pull out of Iraq though.

congrats for winning the crap reasoning of the day award

 

[Silver]

He didn't say they had the ability , he said they wanted to. if we didn't have a military to stop them what would ?

I know that, which is why I wrote a third sentence in that post you replied to. Maybe you didn't get around to reading it?

No body else has the capability, so it's stupid to talk about their wishes as if they are reasonable goals.

 

[Samirol]

Finally, if we pulled our military out of all foreign nations, the Russians, the Georgians, the Libyans, the North Koreans, the Chinese, the Taliban, etc would have a field day.

US troops stationed in Georgia aren't the ones stopping the Russians from invading. US troops stationed in Europe aren't the ones stopping the Russians from invading. American troops in South Korea aren't the ones stopping the North Koreans from invading. China may invade Taiwan, but that would mean embargo, which China doesn't want. Taliban would have a field day though.

 

[Silver]

in the context of the argument [the military is evil (ie: unnecessary)] what you said just proves my point even further. why is there only 1 country with the ability to wipe us off the map? uh...maybe because we have the military? and wiping us off the map isn't synonymous with just a nuclear holocaust, i'm talking about full on terrorist acts that will disrupt america so deeply on an emotional and financial level that our country (read: way of life) would cease to exists as we know it.

First off, I've never argued that military is unnecessary, so I hope we can agree to discard that red herring.

Secondly, the reason Russia is the only country on earth that could wipe the United States off the face of the planet is due to a long and complex series of events that is summed up by the term "The Cold War". I know you went to an American public school, and you probably aren't familiar with the term, but I'd imagine Wikipedia has and entry about it. You could also look at a map. Notice all that ocean on both sides? The Canadians are too nice to be a threat, and the Mexicans are too lazy. You're covered.

There is nothing short of a nuclear holocaust that could wipe America off the map. September 11th was a blip compared to the current financial crisis. Terrorists do not have the capability or the funding to destroy an entire large country. That is the province of nation states. If you wish to redefine what you mean after the fact, I'd advise that in the future you refrain from using extreme hyperbole to make your original frail point seem slightly stronger.

We don't make economic policy based off of what we'd think an Afghani goat herder would do if he was the sole heir to Bill Gates' fortune. It's just as shortsighted to make military policy off of the dreams of an evil religious Saudi rich kid. Especially when he told us what we wanted to do in his wildest dreams (and then, with the reasoning of a four year old) we go ahead and do it...

 

[sanjuro]

US troops stationed in Georgia aren't the ones stopping the Russians from invading. US troops stationed in Europe aren't the ones stopping the Russians from invading. American troops in South Korea aren't the ones stopping the North Koreans from invading. China may invade Taiwan, but that would mean embargo, which China doesn't want. Taliban would have a field day though.

Well, luckily we will never know how wrong you are.

 

[Defenestrated]

Finally, if we pulled our military out of all foreign nations, the Russians, the Georgians, the Libyans, the North Koreans, the Chinese, the Taliban, etc would have a field day.

Don't let scare tactics and fear mongering cloud your judgment. Think about what you have said, it is ludicrous.

US troops stationed in Georgia aren't the ones stopping the Russians from invading. US troops stationed in Europe aren't the ones stopping the Russians from invading. American troops in South Korea aren't the ones stopping the North Koreans from invading. China may invade Taiwan, but that would mean embargo, which China doesn't want. Taliban would have a field day though.

quoting truth

 

[Serial Midget]