[Leppah]

The funny thing is that i ride DH too. Stab Deluxe for that stuff. I also ride indoor bmx races in the winter. Even though i have four bikes, the main one i ride is my xc trail bike. I won't lie. I dont know why anybody would want a HT where i live. Utah doesn't have too many trails that are smooth. We have tons of rocks. Hardtails are fast if you ride smooth stuff. But out here there are trails that dont have smooth lines. You have to point it and go. I've ridden my hardtail downhill on a few xc trails. It was fun in a way that it is like riding a razor blade as far as response. But man, as soon as it got rocky i about came to a stop. There has to be a reason that the winners of Super D races are all doing it on FS. To each his own. I understand. I weigh 210 and can't handle the punishment of riding a hardtail all the time. Especially when Moab calls. But that's just me.

Sorry about the bad typin. I'm trying to type in a cast. I have a broken hand right now.

 

[SuspectDevice]

Sorry about the bad typin. I'm trying to type in a cast. I have a broken hand right now.

I'm pretty sure that if you'd spent more time riding a hardtail you would have avoided that. If you can notice enough of a difference in the descending capabilities to warrant the statement that riding a hardtail makes you feel like "you are coming to a stop" it sounds like you still have a lot more riding technique to pick up.

You also need to realize that western riding is far different than east-coast riding. We don't have anything resembling steady-state climbing or descending, nor many trails that are straight for more than 5 yards at a time. When you are constantly accelerating, decelerating and generally jamming on a bike.

Just putting that out there...

 

[JRogers]

The funny thing is that i ride DH too. Stab Deluxe for that stuff. I also ride indoor bmx races in the winter. Even though i have four bikes, the main one i ride is my xc trail bike. I won't lie. I dont know why anybody would want a HT where i live. Utah doesn't have too many trails that are smooth. We have tons of rocks. Hardtails are fast if you ride smooth stuff. But out here there are trails that dont have smooth lines. You have to point it and go. I've ridden my hardtail downhill on a few xc trails. It was fun in a way that it is like riding a razor blade as far as response. But man, as soon as it got rocky i about came to a stop. There has to be a reason that the winners of Super D races are all doing it on FS. To each his own. I understand. I weigh 210 and can't handle the punishment of riding a hardtail all the time. Especially when Moab calls. But that's just me.

Sorry about the bad typin. I'm trying to type in a cast. I have a broken hand right now.

I get what you're saying and, with climbing and descending a light, short travel FS bike on mixed terrain is often going to be faster than an HT. But sometimes going a bit slower and having a slightly harder time doing it can be more fun than pointing and going.

Plus, I think the difficulty of riding an HT has been oversold a bit. Setup can make a big difference. I ran my HT for a bit with a rigid fork and 2.0 Python Airlights. It was fast as hell on smoother trails, but super sketchy on anything else and I ended up walking some stuff. When I have a suspension fork set reasonably soft and now use 2.2/2.15 tires at lower pressure, the bike is much faster overall and now actually fun to descend on (though not as fun as an FS bike). It is a rougher ride than the Prophet, but I doubt it's any slower over the long haul.

And, yeah, Utah is rocky...but there are rocks all over the country. NJ (where the original poster is) is one of the rockiest places around.

 

[jerseydirt]

(being from nj) every where else you go you dont find as many rocks as you would in NJ. But when you say "jamming on your bike" I dont think doing a lot of braking is considered really "thrashing" on a bike. Lines are not supposed to be smooth, riding a hardtail is, well, riding a hardtail, it is supposed to be a bit rougher. You should spend more time on a hardtail riding trails so you get the jist of how to pick lines and how not to get a flat spot on your rim. This may sound stupid but on the decent you should try riding a little bit bow legged and try to put your weight on your thigh muscles rather than all on your feet so there is not a much pressure on the bike and you get more suspension out of your legs and arms. This works a lot better when you are going faster because you float over things rather than crawl. Dont get a fully, stick with your hardtail.

 

[Leppah]

I'm pretty sure that if you'd spent more time riding a hardtail you would have avoided that.


hahahaha. That's funny. It's winter out here man. I didnt break my hand biking. I broke my hand chasing my boxer puppy. I jumped in to the snow to grab his legs and ended up punching a block of ice. That's classic.


If you knew the trail i was talking about when i mentioned slowing down on a hardtail, you'd feel the same way. My trail bike has over 5" of travel and when i ride through that same section it slows way down because there isn't a clean line. Believe me, i can pick lines and i know it might be hard for you guys to believe, but i also bend my legs when i ride.

I just like to ride downhill more than i like uphill. When i go downhill, i like to go fast. I don't like to really slow to a crawl to get through rocky sections on an xc trail. Usually where there are rocky sections on xc trails, they aren't so bad that you have to almost stop to go through. If you can ride up it, it's not going to be all THAT hard to go down it.

 

[jonKranked]

if you wanna preach about how you think hardtails are pointless, go somewhere else. Eventually, yes, I'd like a FS xc bike, but I already have 7 bikes in the stable, so I'm not exactly in any rush. I'd rather have an extremely nice steel hardtail than anything else (except for a new DH bike, but that's not in the budget this year).

 

[Leppah]

I never said they were pointless. I just like full suspension better for trail riding and i was trying to see exactly why people still ride them for xc. i have a hardtail myself. But it's my park/dirt jump bike.
I actually wouldn't mind trying a 29er hardtail, but that is probably a totally different subject.

ok. So, why would you want steel over something else? Is there an advantage to having a steel frame? i've ridden for a long time now, but i don't really get caught up in much hype and i'm definitely not a tech geek. Why would you want steel over a different metal? Does it flex?

 

[bohorec]

XC FS is marketing hype and rather pointless. More weight and cost for just a little extra comfort. You have dozens of all-mountain bikes on market today if trails are to rocky for you.

Quality steel hardtails are cheaper (if you prefer custom builds) and last for ever.

 

[JRogers]

I never said they were pointless. I just like full suspension better for trail riding and i was trying to see exactly why people still ride them for xc. i have a hardtail myself. But it's my park/dirt jump bike.
I actually wouldn't mind trying a 29er hardtail, but that is probably a totally different subject.

ok. So, why would you want steel over something else? Is there an advantage to having a steel frame? i've ridden for a long time now, but i don't really get caught up in much hype and i'm definitely not a tech geek. Why would you want steel over a different metal? Does it flex?

It depends on the exact material used and the construction, but the conventional wisdom is that steel will ride a bit smoother than aluminum and has a lively ride quality. It will also probably last longer and be easier to repair if damaged than other materials. Plus, if you want an interesting bike, steel is a good way to go because lots of small and custom builders use it.

 

[jonKranked]

I never said they were pointless. I just like full suspension better for trail riding and i was trying to see exactly why people still ride them for xc.

then you have nothing to add to this thread, so fvck off.

 

[jonKranked]

It depends on the exact material used and the construction, but the conventional wisdom is that steel will ride a bit smoother than aluminum and has a lively ride quality. It will also probably last longer and be easier to repair if damaged than other materials. Plus, if you want an interesting bike, steel is a good way to go because lots of small and custom builders use it.

High quality steels generally have a better strength to weight ratio than Al. And yes, it generally has a longer fatigue life, so the frame will last longer.

Another advantage to most steels is that they don't need to be heat treated after welding. Certain grades of steel actually gain strength after they cure (edit: offhand the only one I can think of is True Temper Platinum OX, there are more tho).

Another thing about steel frames, they are easier to repair than Al frames. IE if it cracks, you can re-weld it far more easily than Al. You can re-weld Al, but it has to be heat treated a second time, at which point there's no guarantee that the frame will be aligned.

 

[Leppah]

then you have nothing to add to this thread, so fvck off.

Geez dude, chill out. I'm not flaming you like you're flaming me. I just wanted to see why someone still wants a hardtail for xc these days when there are so many other options.

 

[jonKranked]

Geez dude, chill out. I'm not flaming you like you're flaming me. I just wanted to see why someone still wants a hardtail for xc these days when there are so many other options.

So start another thread. This one isn't "hardtail vs fs", this one is "help me find some good custom builders".

 

[Leppah]

My bad. I thought the topic was "starting the search for a new XC bike".

Sheesh. Are you always this angry? Maybe we should start a new thread so you can go in and beat me up. Seems like it'll make you feel better.

I was stating my opinions. Last time i checked, we were allowed to discuss things about bikes in this bike forum.

Why don't you just PM me instead of taking precious space in your thread?

 

[jonKranked]

My bad. I thought the topic was "starting the search for a new XC bike".

That is indeed the topic at hand, but my first post clearly states hardtail is my top choice.

Sheesh. Are you always this angry?

NO! I'm normally moar angriar!!!

Maybe we should start a new thread so you can go in and beat me up.

No, if there was another thread, I'd *try* to have an intelligent conversation about it. Or at least as intelligent as I'm capable of


Welcome to Ridemonkey, land of Asshattery!!

 

[Leppah]

Welcome to Ridemonkey, land of Asshattery!! [/QUOTE]


Looks like i'm in the right place then.

 

[maddog17]

hey jon, have you looked into the Jamis Dragon Pro? i got the 09 catalog and thinking of maybe getting one myself. the shop said they may be able to get me an 08 if its still in stock. reynolds 853. the 09 complete is around $2300 or so, looks like some nice parts but it's available as a frame only too.

 

[jonKranked]

I do remember the Dragon... one of the sales guys I used to work with at the LBS had one, great bike. Not eye catching, but I did get to take it for a spin. If it were a car, it would definitely be a sleeper. Great frames, but personally, I'm looking for something a little more boutique.