[DirtyDog]

The fact remains, that if you connect to someone elses network, you are commiting a crime. But if you are sitting in your house and are not doing something bad with your stolen connection, I doubt you would be in trouble.

Notice that all the cases that have been brought to court involve sitting outside someones home either on the curb, or in the car. That is a clear case of steeling because you couldn't be using yours if you are out front of someone elses house. Where as in your case you have access to a legal connection, but the neighbors put off a better signal (or in my case, my neighbors ssid began with a zero and my wifes windows machine went in numerical order) so it could be proven as acidental.

If using someone elses network is a crime, then broadcasting a signal into the public or private space should also be a crime. If Oxy corp maufactured air and released it into the city, would it be a crime to "steal" Oxy corps product by breathing the air?

 

[jimmydean]

If using someone elses network is a crime, then broadcasting a signal into the public or private space should also be a crime. If Oxy corp maufactured air and released it into the city, would it be a crime to "steal" Oxy corps product by breathing the air?

Come on now, I didn't make the laws. The law was written before wifi was ever around and was written to cover personal and private networks. As I said before, there should be laws written for wifi based on what is and isn't legal.

If you have a braodband connection that you pay for and you happen to connect to someone elses conncetion that they also pay for, I would say that is fine by me. But if you don't pay for a connection because "you can just use theirs", then you are steeling a service you didn't pay for and the provider of the connection would not be happy.

 

[Skookum]

If using someone elses network is a crime, then broadcasting a signal into the public or private space should also be a crime. If Oxy corp maufactured air and released it into the city, would it be a crime to "steal" Oxy corps product by breathing the air?

A point to ponder as i sip my Dasani....

 

[jimmydean]

My view exactly:
Link
You Simply Can't Steal WiFi...

Alan Graham
Jul. 25, 2005 08:06 AM

Like many in the tech community, I found it rather disturbing that someone could be arrested, and then charged with stealing a WiFi signal. What a complete waste of taxpayer resources. I believe (hope) that the judge who sits on the bench will throw out the case.

Here's why:

If you decide to water your lawn and turn on your sprinkler, and the run-off travels across the sidewalk, off of your property, and enters the drain, and then I come along and start to collect that water and put it into a bucket, you can't convict me for stealing your water. I never entered your property, never took a step onto your lawn, I simply never trespassed.

WiFi works the same. If you have a wireless connection in your home, and that connection spills over onto the street, how is that any different? While the signal, like the water, originated from your property, it has also left the property and entered into public property. In fact, I could say that when your signal leaves your house and enters my house, you are trespassing. So why not start arresting homeowners with WiFi?

Now the guy was arrested for unauthorized access to a computer network. But if you use the water analogy, while I'm taking water that is still connected to the stream which originates from your home, I'm clearly in public space and am not violating your water network. Would the Florida police arrest me for unauthorized use of a waterway? It's absurd.

The police clearly overstepped their bounds here. Granted what this guy did might have crossed into the area of tactless and rude, but if you don't want to share your wireless signal with the world, password protect it and possibly don't broadcast your SSID. And if you don't want people using your water, build a moat.

 

[MMike]

Would a more accurate analogy be, say someone walks around downtown naked, blasting an airhorn, and then complains that everyone is looking at them?

 

[steve45]

Would a more accurate analogy be, say someone walks around downtown naked, blasting an airhorn, and then complains that everyone is looking at them?

no, i cant belive people think its acceptable to use someone elsesWiFi connection without permission, what gives you the right to use up his bandwidth?

someone said something earlier in the thread comparing it to leaving a bike unlocked and having it stolen, well the person that stole it is still a theif, its still illegal, dosnt make him any less of a scumbag.
i mean why is it any different than having a cable network and having someone tap into it and use it? would you like that?, its not as easy to do but technicly its the same thing, just because easy to do and its not protected dosnt make it right.
to be honest i think they should crack down on this.


i keep a close eye on my WiFi network, its protected, but still, i dont like the thought of someone stealing my bandwidth because they are to cheap to get there own connection or just impatient.

 

[binary visions]

no, i cant belive people think its acceptable to use someone elsesWiFi connection without permission, what gives you the right to use up his bandwidth?

Dude, you can be using someone else's connection without even knowing it. In my bedroom, my laptop sees a neighbor's signal as stronger than mine. My neighbor's SSID is "linksys", just like every other freakin' router on the planet because nobody changes it.

If my own router's ID were "linksys" (as 90% of them are), it would not even occur to me that the one I was connecting to wasn't my own router.

The direct "theft" analogies are completely and utterly wrong. It's not right to knowingly use someone else's WiFi connection but to liken it to the theft of a TV or a bike is just dumb. First off, bandwidth is a shared resource, so you are not preventing the other person from using it, merely hampering their ability to use the whole amount. Secondly, the signal is being put into your own house - using it does not require you to do anything.

A more apt analogy would be this: say you have a bus pass, that lets you get 100 rides per day. You make 1000 copies of this pass and scatter them all over the area where you live.

If someone picks up the bus pass who doesn't own one, and uses it, they know they're doing something wrong - but hey, you were the one who threw copies of it everywhere. If someone who owns a bus pass loses theirs, and picks up yours, they're still "stealing" from you, but how are they to know? It looks just like their pass.

In either scenario, you won't even find out about this until you hit your 100 ride-per-day limit. A lot of people won't even ever notice. Those who do, should take better precautions now, shouldn't they?

 

[johnbryanpeters]

N8 as tape loop...

Suck it up, girls, if you take it you just might have to pay.

 

[BurlyShirley]

Dude, you can be using someone else's connection without even knowing it. In my bedroom, my laptop sees a neighbor's signal as stronger than mine. My neighbor's SSID is "linksys", just like every other freakin' router on the planet because nobody changes it.

If my own router's ID were "linksys" (as 90% of them are), it would not even occur to me that the one I was connecting to wasn't my own router.

The direct "theft" analogies are completely and utterly wrong. It's not right to knowingly use someone else's WiFi connection but to liken it to the theft of a TV or a bike is just dumb. First off, bandwidth is a shared resource, so you are not preventing the other person from using it, merely hampering their ability to use the whole amount. Secondly, the signal is being put into your own house - using it does not require you to do anything.

A more apt analogy would be this: say you have a bus pass, that lets you get 100 rides per day. You make 1000 copies of this pass and scatter them all over the area where you live.

If someone picks up the bus pass who doesn't own one, and uses it, they know they're doing something wrong - but hey, you were the one who threw copies of it everywhere. If someone who owns a bus pass loses theirs, and picks up yours, they're still "stealing" from you, but how are they to know? It looks just like their pass.

In either scenario, you won't even find out about this until you hit your 100 ride-per-day limit. A lot of people won't even ever notice. Those who do, should take better precautions now, shouldn't they?

So its stealing. Gotcha.

 

[binary visions]

So its stealing. Gotcha.

You must be a fun person to have conversations with.

 

[BurlyShirley]

You must be a fun person to have conversations with.

You can make all the references to free bus passes or whatever, but it doesnt change the heart of the matter. Its exactly the same as stealing cable tv. The cable company provides a service, and to use it without paying for it is stealing. If making allusions to bus passes makes you feel better about it, thats fine with me. I dont care what you steal. Hell, I hate the cable monopoly just as much as the next guy, but if Im the owner of one and I know alot of people are using my services without paying for them, well, Id be pissed too.

 

[LordOpie]

It is stealing, but how criminal is it? Is it like jay-walking or bank robbery?

 

[Transcend]

You can make all the references to free bus passes or whatever, but it doesnt change the heart of the matter. Its exactly the same as stealing cable tv. The cable company provides a service, and to use it without paying for it is stealing. If making allusions to bus passes makes you feel better about it, thats fine with me. I dont care what you steal. Hell, I hate the cable monopoly just as much as the next guy, but if Im the owner of one and I know alot of people are using my services without paying for them, well, Id be pissed too.

No it's not. Does the cable TV come into your living room without you doing anything to get it, without running cables, and without jumping connectors?

Didn't think so.

 

[binary visions]

Its exactly the same as stealing cable tv.

Yes, it is very similar to stealing cable TV, if:

- Your neighbor patched the coax cable into his system himself, and ran it over to your house

- Your neighbor then hooked up in such a fashion as to be almost identical to the legitamite coax cable coming out of your wall

Thus, those who are NOT paying for the service at all will know it's not legit (but again, the neighbor was the one who ran the cable over to your house in the first place, so just how much of a criminal activitity it is, or how much leeway the neighbor has to get mad is in question), and those who are paying for service may just as easily hook up the "stolen" cable without knowing it.

 

[BurlyShirley]

No it's not. Does the cable TV come into your living room without you doing anything to get it, without running cables, and without jumping connectors?

Didn't think so.

Boy you are a stupid fvck.

 

[BurlyShirley]

Yes, it is very similar to stealing cable TV, if:

- Your neighbor patched the coax cable into his system himself, and ran it over to your house

- Your neighbor then hooked up in such a fashion as to be almost identical to the legitamite coax cable coming out of your wall

Thus, those who are NOT paying for the service at all will know it's not legit (but again, the neighbor was the one who ran the cable over to your house in the first place, so just how much of a criminal activitity it is, or how much leeway the neighbor has to get mad is in question), and those who are paying for service may just as easily hook up the "stolen" cable without knowing it.

Is this the voice of reason? no. sorry.

It doesnt matter HOW you steal it, to use it without paying is stealing, plain and simple.

 

[Transcend]

Boy you are a stupid fvck.

Ya right, this coming from the redneck who knows nothing about technology, yet is arguing with those of us who work in the field.

Nice try though, troll.

 

[BurlyShirley]

Ya right, this coming from the redneck who knows nothing about technology, yet is arguing with those of us who work in the field.

Nice try though, troll.

Its a pretty simple concept really. And you dont have an argument except that you think you should get free sh** for no reason. Real sound logic, idiot. I hope you get aids.

 

[Transcend]

Its a pretty simple concept really. And you dont have an argument except that you think you should get free sh** for no reason. Real sound logic, idiot. I hope you get aids.

You're a real bright one. Enjoy community college.

Edit: Funniest part, is I bet you fall into the category of the whiny moron who is too stupid to secure his network..or do they not have the internet in the backwater where you currently reside?

 

[BurlyShirley]

You're a real bright one. Enjoy community college.

Enjoy AIDS.

 

[Transcend]

Enjoy AIDS.

Well, I guess as long as I don't hump you or your boyfriend, I should be fine.

 

[LordOpie]

oh no, BS is bored! Where's Kizzi?

 

[BurlyShirley]

You just keep you and your gay canadian lesions away from me, and we'll be fine.

 

[LordOpie]

You just keep you and your gay canadian lesbians away from me, and we'll be fine.

 

[jimmydean]

So its stealing. Gotcha.

The difference is BV was saying he IS paying for it, but in his bedroom, he can pick up his neighbors signal.

So is it steal stealing if he is paying for the same service, only connecting to 68.87.218.89 (his neighbors) rather than 68.87.218.23 (his)? In terms of bandwidth, cable is shared with your neighbor anyway, so unless you're pulling 100% of his and none of your, then I might say it was stealing (even though it's imposible).

I would say it was stealing if he quit paying his bill do to the fact that he can download his midget porn faster in the bedroom using his neighbors conncetion.

 

[sanjuro]

You just keep you and your gay canadian lesions away from me, and we'll be fine.

thank the gods you're back!

 

[Pau11y]

Where is the responsibility of ownership? For those of you who think it falls entirely on the shoulder of those who jack free WiFi, if you're going to play in the tech world and not understand the tech you're playing with and not secure your network, I think you need suck it up and take some responsibility for your own ignorance. This "I'm the victim" mentality trend is one of the biggest pussy/chichensh!t cop-out that's been adopted by the people of US in recent times. Just as you don't have a clue w/ laws and the judicial system, if you don't know the tech you're playing with, hire someone who does and get it right. Hell, you can prob give a college kid pennies on the dollar when compared to an actual service (Geeksquad, or what/whoever else) and get it done better and faster (personally I'd only take a six-pack of Pacificos to do this for someone I don't know and would just do it for my buddies). The friggin' judge in this decision is coddling the idiot who left this pipe open and whined like a bitch because the cvnt's too god-damn lazy or too big of a pussy to secure their network or admit they screwed up in the first place. "If you can't handle the heat, get your ass the hell out of the kitchen!"
I'm not defending the guy who jacked the open pipe. If the owner secured it, there'd be no crime unless he actually hacked the router.

Edit: Yes, this rant DIRECTLY addresses BS's George W. Bush-esk, moronic ideals. Until the next time you find a dollar and run it to the police station to turn it in instead of pocketing it, you have NO moral ground to lecture any one about what constitutes stealing and what doesn't.

 

[BurlyShirley]

Um, I think I said I dont give a **** who steals what, bright one. Just that it IS in fact stealing. If you could READ you'd see that I admitted to stealing it myself.

 

[Pau11y]

Then at this point, you're basically calling yourself a hypocrite. How is anyone reading this thread suppose to take serious the comments of someone who would spout "do as I say, not as I do"? Plus, do you even understand the technology? BV, Sanjuro, myself, and a few others WORKED w/ this technology on a professional level. Can you say the same? Even if it is just a home setup on an economy commercial home router, do you know what WEP and MAC address filtering is? Or go even one more step, what can be gained/lost by disabling SSID broadcast? These features are on EVERY WiFi router/AP that I know of. Responsibility of ownership - if you own it, know what the hell it is you've bought and USE the capabilities that you spent your hard earned money on. Your rights end where my nose begin. As such when YOUR radio waves hits MY hardware, and you haven't taken the responsibility to learn and secure your end, what happens next is your own god-damn fault because you didn't/don't know how to use what you bought. If you were taken advantage of during this time, then instead of being a big cry-baby about things, use it as a learning experience and get your end tied down. Was anyone hurt from this guy taking advantage of the looser who left his pipe open...doubtful. Then if no one was hurt and all the guy had was some inconvenience of slow downloads, that judge is the fvcking idiot. You should be glad to know that you and him can share company in your opinions.

 

[BurlyShirley]

How am I calling myself a hypocrite? I said its stealing and I said I do it. Im not attempting to take the moral highground here, fella. Im just saying that I RECOGNIZE that Im using a service that I dont pay for. I dont feel bad about it, but I recognize WHY it would be illegal. Its a fairly simple concept. What you've worked with is of little or no concern.

 

[binary visions]

Im just saying that I RECOGNIZE that Im using a service that I dont pay for.

So, how do you feel about those who are using an open network without even realizing it? They're doing the exact same thing as the malicious types. Is ignorance no excuse? Ignorance isn't really accepted as an excuse very many places in law. However, there is literally no easy way to tell the difference between one router and another in their default setups if the signal strength is strong.

Frankly, I'm not sure you have enough of a grasp on what you're discussing - it's not as black and white as you may believe. This is akin to arguing that someone listening to a radio station is doing something wrong just because the station doesn't want the public listening to it. They are broadcasting it, and they are broadcasting it into the public domain - or even the private domain of people's houses.

On a seperate note, IMO, wireless networks have become prevelant enough that a proper setup application should be necessary to be run when you hook up a new application. This setup application should change the SSID and set up default MAC filtering, with an option to setup wireless encryption.

 

[BurlyShirley]

So, how do you feel about those who are using an open network without even realizing it? They're doing the exact same thing as the malicious types. Is ignorance no excuse? Ignorance isn't really accepted as an excuse very many places in law. However, there is literally no easy way to tell the difference between one router and another in their default setups if the signal strength is strong.

Frankly, I'm not sure you have enough of a grasp on what you're discussing - it's not as black and white as you may believe. This is akin to arguing that someone listening to a radio station is doing something wrong just because the station doesn't want the public listening to it. They are broadcasting it, and they are broadcasting it into the public domain - or even the private domain of people's houses.

If you're talking about the situation youd described earlier, just look to those who would want to press the charges. If the provider can obviously see that you're paying for service, why would they want to push the issue? They're getting paid the same.
It really is a pretty black and white issue if you'd step off your ultra-geek high horses and use some common sense. Maybe speak to yourself in the "voice of reason" The companies who provide the service invested the money and made it available. They in turn should be paid for the service they provide. We can talk all day about little stipulations and ethics issues, but seriously, you have to see why it would be an issue if one guy in an apartment complex pays for wireless and everyone else gets a free ride, no?

 

[BuddhaRoadkill]

The companies who provide the service invested the money and made it available. They in turn should be paid for the service they provide. We can talk all day about little stipulations and ethics issues, but seriously, you have to see why it would be an issue if one guy in an apartment complex pays for wireless and everyone else gets a free ride, no?

Perhaps the company should take a more pro-active interest in making sure their clients are set up properly.

And your wrong BS, it's not as black and white as you think it is. The "No Free Lunch" argument has a giant hole in it - private property. By not securing their WiFi, your neighbor is essentially giving you access. As in "Gift". If your neighbor chose to put a TV in his front yard playing Pay per View content, would it be stealing to set a couple of chairs in your own yard and watch it? You did not ask for it, your neighbor chose to give it away. He may not legally have the right to do that, but that's his responsibility, not yours. All you did was sit in your front yard.

If any prosecution occurs, it should be the person making the choice to break their contract. For that matter, the company selling the service shouldn't bitch unless they have set up or at least trained their customers in proper set up. They know damn well WiFi goes everywhere and they are trying to skip out on the responsibility associated with their product.

 

[rideit]

According to some of the logic above, anyone who uses a wiFi free hotspot without signing a user agreement is a criminal, and whoever broadcasts and allows others free access is a violator of their user agreement, and is also therefore criminal.
This who issue is going to be absurd when entire cities are wired for free web access. Dinasaur argument.

 

[BuddhaRoadkill]

This who issue is going to be absurd when entire cities are wired for free web access. Dinasaur argument.

True, but the argument isn't really about WiFi.

 

[rideit]

It would have recieved twice the replies in the thread title was
"Gay Canadians have lesion infested butt sex"