[marshalolson]

Do

This whole conversation has already happened, and i think its dumb to match a stem to offset, as shorter offset means more trail,

not sure if this was In response to my post or not, just sharing what riding with 35, 40, 45, and 50mm stems felt like to me with different offsets.

anyhow, I would say that I am also a believer in slamming the stem to the headset as much as possible, and using handlebar rise to get hands/weighting in the right place,and your logic regarding dropping bar does make good sense to me.

but hell, I just swap stuff around a bit for 10-15 rides, go off feel, and then Leave it for another 200 rides till the next bike.

 

[kidwoo]

I just think the key to it isnt about matching or exceeding offset,

It's okay you can be wrong. You wouldn't be the first guy to come from moto and think everything is comparable between the two.

You've obviously got way more experience on a moto than I do but I've ridden enough to know that weight distribution of your body on handlebars is way different on a bicycle. I have to constantly make myself not death grip bars on a dirt bike and stand on my feet more. That's from years of mountainbike riding being different.

You don't have to believe people here. This is a pretty well understood relationship at this point.

The team didn't like the characteristics of using a sub-50mm stem either, with the whole team opting instead to run, long by today's standards, 60mm stems from UK brand Burgtec, throughout 2014. But after extensive testing during his years on the old Honda G-Cross team, Greg intimately understood the relationship between fork offset and stem length, "Greg convinced me that you don't want a stem any longer than the offset of your fork," says Marshy. Greg didn’t want a stem length too different to the offset of his fork,” says Marshy. He said he didn’t like the nervous steering when running a stem shorter than 45mm. With the team all on Fox 40s, which have a 51mm offset, they knew early on that the rest of the new XXL V10 would be built around a 50mm stem in play and that the head angle would be optimised between 63 and 64-degrees to maintain optimum suspension performance. "The slacker the head angle, the larger the turning circle you need," says Marshy, so figuring out how to boost stability without compromising the head angle and bar height became the next challenge.

Behind the Bike: Developing the XXL Santa Cruz V10 - Pinkbike

Take a behind-the-scenes look at what went into the creation of the XXL Santa Cruz V10.

www.pinkbike.com

That guy is better than most on dirt skooters too.

 

[englertracing]

It's okay you can be wrong. You wouldn't be the first guy to come from moto and think everything is comparable between the two.

You've obviously got way more experience on a moto than I do but I've ridden enough to know that weight distribution of your body on handlebars is way different on a bicycle. I have to constantly make myself not death grip bars on a dirt bike and stand on my feet more. That's from years of mountainbike riding being different.

You don't have to believe people here. This is a pretty well understood relationship at this point.

The team didn't like the characteristics of using a sub-50mm stem either, with the whole team opting instead to run, long by today's standards, 60mm stems from UK brand Burgtec, throughout 2014. But after extensive testing during his years on the old Honda G-Cross team, Greg intimately understood the relationship between fork offset and stem length, "Greg convinced me that you don't want a stem any longer than the offset of your fork," says Marshy. Greg didn’t want a stem length too different to the offset of his fork,” says Marshy. He said he didn’t like the nervous steering when running a stem shorter than 45mm. With the team all on Fox 40s, which have a 51mm offset, they knew early on that the rest of the new XXL V10 would be built around a 50mm stem in play and that the head angle would be optimised between 63 and 64-degrees to maintain optimum suspension performance. "The slacker the head angle, the larger the turning circle you need," says Marshy, so figuring out how to boost stability without compromising the head angle and bar height became the next challenge.

Behind the Bike: Developing the XXL Santa Cruz V10 - Pinkbike

Take a behind-the-scenes look at what went into the creation of the XXL Santa Cruz V10.

www.pinkbike.com

That guy is better than most on dirt skooters too.

So heres where youve got me twisted, i run 45mm stems, dont like 35mm stems.....
They do feel whack, im not disputing that...
Im just trying to get to the bottom of why, and i dont feel that its solely related to or based off of offset

 

[kidwoo]

So heres where youve got me twisted, i run 45mm stems, dont like 35mm stems.....
They do feel whack, im not disputing that...
Im just trying to get to the bottom of why, and i dont feel that its solely related to or based off of offset

That's exactly what happened to me years ago when people started making stems that short. Even on butt dragger steep stuff it just felt like shit, and pretty much made a bike useless in corners. I knew I couldn't weight the front better but same thing, it took me a while to figure out why. But same here, all big bikes ended up with stems at or slightly longer than the fork offset without me even realizing it, just going off handling.

Everything you listed is true, it all affects weight distribution. But that stem/offset relationship is a really acute one that stays there whether your're off the back or dragging your nipples over the front wheel. It's not just weight distribution, it's leverage over the front wheel, and how the weight distribution gets transferred there.

 

[kidwoo]

Anybody remember this dumb bullshit?

Proto DM Stem from Cero Design - Pinkbike

Cesar Rojo is the engineer and WC DH racer at Mondraker that helped bring us the Summum, now he's working on a new direct mount stem. Check it out! *Video added!*

www.pinkbike.com

Mondraker Introduces Forward Geometry: Are You Ready for a 10 mm Stem?

Technology and fashion in the bike industry cycle nearly as quickly as moore’s law. Ten years ago, 70mm stems where commonplace on trail bikes, 680mm bars were considered wide, and 29″ wheels belonged on road bikes. Now, Mondraker is attempting to pioneer a new trend, with the shortest AM stem...

bikerumor.com

There's a reason no one does this.

And it has nothing to do with 'reach'. Stem length is a handling component, not a fitting component. When people don't understand this, they do dumb shit like lengthening a top tube but thinking there's some single reach measurement that has to be maintained with the stem. Yeah how'd that work out. It's funny to look back and now everyone (hopefully) realizes that you can ride a longer bike with the same sized stem you had on the shorter one just fine.

 

[Gary]

Im genuinely asking for your theory

i know you're not asking for mine, but...
Here's something to think about instead of comparing motorcycles to bicycles.
Clue: they don't handle the same or have even vaguely similar input forces.

Why is it that the fastest descending bicycles have 700c wheels, 25mm tyres and 140mm stems with a far far smaller trail measurement to all mountainbikes?

Yeah. Let's just stick to mountain bikes.Eh?

 

[iRider]

Always the right stem length!

 

[kidwoo]

Why is it that the fastest descending bicycles have 700c wheels, 25mm tyres and 140mm stems with a far far smaller trail measurement to all mountainbikes?

duh

 

[Gary]

WTFs your point I have those fitted to all my mountain bikes too.
Don't you?

#Gainz

 

[Gary]

Always the right stem length!

That comes up on my spotify (shuffle) playlist a LOT when biking

 

[Sandwich]

team robot did a hot take on short stems: http://theteamrobot.blogspot.com/search?q=stem

I'm not sure how he really feels about them though. It's a little criptic.

I messed around with short stems (28mm) and long stems (50) on my DH bike because Kidwoo made fun of me. With the same reach/offset (bike) the bike was much more lively and nimble. With the 28, the bike is more stable and less likely to get off line. With the 50, your weight is more centered and easy to get where it needs to be for a corner position. With a 28 you need more body english/weight shift forward to keep the front wheel where it needs to be. I think the 50 is probably better overall, but I ended up preferring the 28 for its stability at mach stupid and the fact that the bike was simply too long with the 50. On a trail bike, I'd definitely stick close to 50, say 45-55.

 

[StiHacka]

I too got sucked into the 35mm mania only to switch back to the 45-50mm range. My pocket sized DHR has a 50mm stem ATM, my not-so-long-reached overforked Hightower as a 45mm one. I find everything outside of the 45-50mm range suboptimal - too slow steering and unwieldy with long stems, too twitchy and on-the-ass-riding with short ones.

 

[kidwoo]

Kidwoo made fun of me.

*currently "makes"

I ended up preferring the 28 for its stability

 

[slimshady]

I went from a 20 mm rise bar and 50 mm stem to a 35 mm rise bar and a 35 mm stem, while maintaining the 37 mm offset fork on my AM bike. I liked the change as i feel it helped me to stay more centered on the bike, and after adding a -2 degree headset, when going really fast -or what I consider fast given my general hackyness- the steering got muted enough to help me crash less than I'm used to. The bike tends to flop a lot less than it did when the terrain gets horrible (i.e. non existent) grip. I concur with @Sandwich , it takes more body English. But since my physical condition improved greatly during the past summer, and I like to move my bike rather than let it do the hard work, I'm cool with it.

I debated greatly with myself about the aforementioned changes. I didn't want to fall victim of my own confirmation bias, although I do feel like I fell victim of my own deeply rooted riding habits. I can find my natural (not optimal) riding position on most of the bikes I throw a leg over -providing they are my size, obviously- and given I looked for longer front center/short rear center bikes almost since Gary Fisher came out with his Genesis ideas, I went beyond what feels natural for me (when riding a close friend's size L Mondraker Dune) and came back to my Goldilocks 470-475 mm reach.


But then again I'm one old fashioned hack who still likes short chainstays and avoids 29ers like they are the COVID19, so what do I know... Maybe matching or exceeding the offset works better for people riding at speeds I can't manage to reach. If that's the case, I could totally understand it. Short offset, short stem, open HA, is the way I like it. At least while I'm still able to ride aggressively.

 

[kidwoo]

35 mm stem, while maintaining the 37 mm offset fork

Your bike doesn't ride like sandwich's does

 

[jstuhlman]

i've got a 40 and 50 for my nomad with a fox 36 that i believe has 44mm offset. the 40 was ok but i've stuck with the 50 for a while. for the least princess and the pea guy here, i felt like while i could scoot through the slower speed tighter stuff a bit better with the 40, it was harder to get weight over the front wheel at speed with it and i washed out in corners more.

@kidwoo - last week i cut down my old crabon sixc's and put them and the 40mm on my 10yo's 24" bike. so yeah, i'm basically trying to kill him. stupid lockdown.

 

[mykel]

When I built the new trailbike last spring I debated about fork offset.
Decided that where I live most of the trails are quite tight and twisty so I went with the longer 51mm offset.
Have tried 35, 40 and 50mm stems.
Liked the 40 the best.

 

[Gary]

avoids 29ers like they are the COVID19, so what do I know...

Maybe more than any of us do...

I rode quite a lot of 29ers from Jan to March and even started to... "haaaackkk"... sorry.. nearly threw up in my mouth... "hhhmmm..." enjoy... riding a few. and look at what fucked up shit happened to me!
Coincidence?
I'm not so sure.

Stay safe. Stay away from 29ers.

 

[slimshady]

Your bike doesn't ride like sandwich's does

Believe me, I do know I don't ride like Sandwich either...

 

[kidwoo]

Believe me, I do know I don't ride like Sandwich either...

You've seen the seatpost right?

The seatpost...... Oh man. Everyone should see the seatpost.

 

[jstuhlman]

You've seen the seatpost right?

The seatpost...... Oh man. Everyone should see the seatpost.

 

[Sandwich]

Believe me, I do know I don't ride like Sandwich either...

ha, impossible- sandwich doesn't ride

 

[slimshady]

ha, impossible- sandwich doesn't ride

I'm confined to trying to wheelie for (up to) 80ft or hopping over a pile of pallets. I'd say I don't ride either...

 

[buckoW]

I can’t weight the front tire enough with a 30mm stem and a 63* head angle. I like 50mm on a DH bike because the fork is long and the head angle is slack so the 50mm helps me weight the tire more and dig in better. Short stems, tall forks and slack head angles makes me run wide in the corners and push my front wheel. I only run a 40 if my reach is too long.

 

[spocomptonrider]

#polebikeshatesridemonkey

 

[jstuhlman]

good. because ridemonkey hates them too.

 

[spocomptonrider]

just an observation on stem length is all. Weird that when you make bikes with 1360mm wheelbase a 0mm stem is the only way a normally proportioned human can reach the bars.

 

[Muddy]

It's okay you can be wrong. You wouldn't be the first guy to come from moto and think everything is comparable between the two.

You've obviously got way more experience on a moto than I do but I've ridden enough to know that weight distribution of your body on handlebars is way different on a bicycle. I have to constantly make myself not death grip bars on a dirt bike and stand on my feet more. That's from years of mountainbike riding being different.

You don't have to believe people here. This is a pretty well understood relationship at this point.

The team didn't like the characteristics of using a sub-50mm stem either, with the whole team opting instead to run, long by today's standards, 60mm stems from UK brand Burgtec, throughout 2014. But after extensive testing during his years on the old Honda G-Cross team, Greg intimately understood the relationship between fork offset and stem length, "Greg convinced me that you don't want a stem any longer than the offset of your fork," says Marshy. Greg didn’t want a stem length too different to the offset of his fork,” says Marshy. He said he didn’t like the nervous steering when running a stem shorter than 45mm. With the team all on Fox 40s, which have a 51mm offset, they knew early on that the rest of the new XXL V10 would be built around a 50mm stem in play and that the head angle would be optimised between 63 and 64-degrees to maintain optimum suspension performance. "The slacker the head angle, the larger the turning circle you need," says Marshy, so figuring out how to boost stability without compromising the head angle and bar height became the next challenge.

Behind the Bike: Developing the XXL Santa Cruz V10 - Pinkbike

Take a behind-the-scenes look at what went into the creation of the XXL Santa Cruz V10.

www.pinkbike.com

That guy is better than most on dirt skooters too.

But that article's an equivalent to rush-to-open economies during a pandemic - it's on PB first of all.
There's nothing to work outward from these claims if not on a similar travel bike w/ a similar HT angle. Drop everything, take a fully rigid trail bike to this task and the handling will be erratic.

This is what's wrong with the industry.

The 'old school" 6POINT has had one fork and they've all had the 42mm RS offset. 50mm 0deg stems have fit best with 780-/800mm width on the H-Bars. The Lite Renthal I first put on there worked best w/ a 60mm 0deg stem. I just happen to be proportioned to fit these static numbers.

This is not rocket science. Find a frame offering solid platform then sort out steering, collect pens afterward.

 

[Sandwich]

Do


not sure if this was In response to my post or not, just sharing what riding with 35, 40, 45, and 50mm stems felt like to me with different offsets.

anyhow, I would say that I am also a believer in slamming the stem to the headset as much as possible, and using handlebar rise to get hands/weighting in the right place,and your logic regarding dropping bar does make good sense to me.

but hell, I just swap stuff around a bit for 10-15 rides, go off feel, and then Leave it for another 200 rides till the next bike.

hey what's the logic of slamming the stem and getting higher rise handlebars vs adding stem spacers? Is there any? Is the thought that bars will keep your hands at the same extension but higher or lower, whereas spacers will pull them back behind the axle?

or is it just vanity [SLAM THAT STEM]

woody used to have this ibis mojo that I thought rode like shit and I couldn't figure out why. My guess was the stack of spacers under the stem but I never dicked around on it enough to figure out. I usually keep my bars low regardless of setup

 

[Muddy]

hey what's the logic of slamming the stem and getting higher rise handlebars vs adding stem spacers? Is there any? Is the thought that bars will keep your hands at the same extension but higher or lower, whereas spacers will pull them back behind the axle?

or is it just vanity [SLAM THAT STEM]

woody used to have this ibis mojo that I thought rode like shit and I couldn't figure out why. My guess was the stack of spacers under the stem but I never dicked around on it enough to figure out. I usually keep my bars low regardless of setup

You end up with a less-direct feeling at the bars. If something wants to make the bike stand up in a corner, that's a longer lever to have push-back from.

 

[Salami]

hey what's the logic of slamming the stem and getting higher rise handlebars vs adding stem spacers? Is there any? Is the thought that bars will keep your hands at the same extension but higher or lower, whereas spacers will pull them back behind the axle?

or is it just vanity [SLAM THAT Stem]

As you add spacers under the stem the reach is shortened. Using higher rise bars instead allow taller bar height without reducing reach.

The right handlebar rise – all you need to know

Is front wheel traction getting you down? If so, it's time to think about your handlebar height. We experiment to find the perfect MTB bar height.

enduro-mtb.com

 

[Gary]

As you add spacers under the stem the reach is shortened. Using higher rise bars instead allow taller bar height without reducing reach.

Using the same stem and a bar positioned in it with a neutral 0deg roll it makes fuck all difference whether you use spacers under your stem or a higher rise bar to place your controls (grips/brakes) in exactly the same place.

"Reach" and "stack" were introduced as virtual FRAME measurements and are irrelevant of bar/stem set-up preferences. what they are dependent on is fork axle to crown height.

The writer in the article you linked to even *wrote* a section explaining it (*copy n pasted?)

What is Stack and Reach – understanding the terminology
Before we delve into bar height, it’s important to understand some terminology, namely Stack and Reach. Stack is the vertical distance measured from the centre of the frames bottom bracket to the centre of the top of the head tube (where the fork steerer enters the frame). Reach is the horizontal distance from the centre of the bottom bracket to the centre of the top of the head tube. Reach has nothing to do with the position of the seat and grips

He then goes on to contradict that definition and use the terminology completely wrongly.

"Reach" hasn't changed at all in his pretty pencil drawings

This is "REACH"

 

[sethimus]

Why is it that the fastest descending bicycles have 700c wheels, 25mm tyres and 140mm stems with a far far smaller trail measurement to all mountainbikes?

uhm

 

[StiHacka]

hey what's the logic of slamming the stem and getting higher rise handlebars vs adding stem spacers? Is there any? Is the thought that bars will keep your hands at the same extension but higher or lower, whereas spacers will pull them back behind the axle?

The longer the exposed steerer, the moar bendy. And I believe that the bend in the bars with rise can also make them stiffer (vs. flat bars).

 

[kidwoo]

But that article's an equivalent to rush-to-open economies during a pandemic - it's on PB first of all.
There's nothing to work outward from these claims if not on a similar travel bike w/ a similar HT angle. Drop everything, take a fully rigid trail bike to this task and the handling will be erratic.

This is what's wrong with the industry.

The 'old school" 6POINT has had one fork and they've all had the 42mm RS offset. 50mm 0deg stems have fit best with 780-/800mm width on the H-Bars. The Lite Renthal I first put on there worked best w/ a 60mm 0deg stem. I just happen to be proportioned to fit these static numbers.

This is not rocket science. Find a frame offering solid platform then sort out steering, collect pens afterward.

1. 50mm> 42mm, 60 > 42mm

B. You literally just confirmed everything everyone here has been saying: Stem length equal to or slightly greater than the fork offset.

&. You can't accept quotes just because they appear on pinkbike? Just search minnaar/syndicate/stem/offset. I didn't even know that pinkbike piece existed, just that minnaar has been vocal about it in the past. It's not I just read that particular piece and started parroting it.

Q. How fast you ride on rigid forks through rough terrain?

4. No one said this is the ONLY handling factor, but it is a consistent one across everything else

237. Muddy not reading is what's wrong with the industry

 

[Muddy]

The longer the exposed steerer, the moar bendy. And I believe that the bend in the bars with rise can also make them stiffer (vs. flat bars).

Pretty certain what Sandwich is seeking-out is basic functionality - higher loft to the front-end in a straight line vs. steady-state cornering attitude changes.

uhm

Straight lining vs. steering and also riding in crosswinds. Point (somehow) actually goes to Gerald here.

1. Old 26" rockshox single crown forks weren't 42mm
2. You are literally confirming everything everyone here has been saying: Equal to or slightly greater than the fork offset.
3. You can't accept quotes just because they appear on pinkbike? Just search minnaar/syndicate/stem/offset. I didn't even know that pinkbike piece existed, just that minnaar has been vocal about it in the past.
4. Muddy not reading is what's wrong with the industry

Not arguing. If the practice within that article was found to be indisputable there'd be that exact combination on all bikes, not just on an extreme version of things and in reference to something that was.

As far as facts - both Solo Air Totem, I believe, 42mm offset as opposed to 47(?)mm. I don't seek these factors and products out. If these numbers were never published I'd still be able to ride. Just illustrating for the .75mm of reach given up to being one-up in spacers as sorted rationale by raising a stem.

 

[kidwoo]

I edited my post. I though it was just the boxxers but you're right, most of them were 42. Here's a good post btw with some numbers I've had bookmarked

Standard rake/offset for suspension forks?

I've searched all around the web but incredibly I can't find anything on mtb fork rake. Either my search engine kung fu is really weak today, or the answer is so obvious nobody even feels the need to mention it :skep: So: is there a standard rake (offset) for suspension forks? I can't find any...

forums.mtbr.com

Regardless, everyone rode stems that were longer than their fork offsets back then because no one made stems that short. So you going 10mm longer on a stem doesn't really prove anything. It's not until you go under that offset number that you'll start noticing the stupidity.

Stop obsessing over 'reach'. You can ride a wide variety of frame lengths just fine, and you have. But how they steer and track through chunder with the front wheel will always be influenced by that relationship. This is mountain biking, not spandex cycling. We move around a lot on descents. I've said this for over a decade: stem length is a handling determinant, not a bike fitting one. And until you really go around and start experimenting with different forks and stems.......

 

[Salami]

"Reach" and "stack" were introduced as virtual FRAME measurements and are irrelevant of bar/stem set-up preferences. what they are dependent on is fork axle to crown height.

So I used the incorrect term. I had just woke up and was taking a shit. Sue me.

Using the same stem and a bar positioned in it with a neutral 0deg roll it makes fuck all difference whether you use spacers under your stem or a higher rise bar to place your controls (grips/brakes) in exactly the same place.

How are the controls in exactly the same place? You saw the pretty pencil drawings.

Raising the bar height via under stem spacers is also moving the controls closer to the rider shortening the length of the cock pit. Raising control height via riser bars is not (assuming bar angle has not changed).

 

[StiHacka]

Raising the bar height via under stem spacers is also moving the controls closer to the rider shortening the length of the cock pit. Raising control height via riser bars is not (assuming bar angle has not changed).

 

[Muddy]

I edited my post. I though it was just the boxxers but you're right, most of them were 42. Here's a good post btw with some numbers I've had bookmarked

Standard rake/offset for suspension forks?

I've searched all around the web but incredibly I can't find anything on mtb fork rake. Either my search engine kung fu is really weak today, or the answer is so obvious nobody even feels the need to mention it :skep: So: is there a standard rake (offset) for suspension forks? I can't find any...

forums.mtbr.com

Regardless, everyone rode stems that were longer than their fork offsets back then because no one made stems that short. So you going 10mm longer on a stem doesn't really prove anything. It's not until you go under that offset number that you'll start noticing the stupidity.

Stop obsessing over 'reach'. You can ride a wide variety of frame lengths just fine, and you have. But how they steer and track through chunder with the front wheel will always be influenced by that relationship. This is mountain biking, not spandex cycling. We move around a lot on descents. I've said this for over a decade: stem length is a handling determinant, not a bike fitting one. And until you really go around and start experimenting with different forks and stems.......

I reach for the handlebar, the handlebar should never be reaching for me. ......sounds like a working title of a snuff film. 'The Handlebar's Reach' starring Gary Fisher & Tom Ritchey.