[gemini2k]

So probably a dumb question, but I have not really kept up on bike standards the last year or 2.

I just installed my brand new 11 speed drivetrain on my megatrail yesterday. And it seems like it'll shift perfectly, but then when i crank on it, it kinda "skips" into position for some reason. It's not really "skipping" but it feels more like the chain is stelling onto the chainring while it flexes or something. Hard to explain. It's loud, and annoying, and I can feel a slight movement. I think I have this narrowed down to 3 possible root causes

1. Chainring needs to be spaced inboard a little more
2. Cassette issue?
3. Frame flexing or alignment issue? (no way this can be the problem)

My main question is (and please forgive me here), how do you install an 11 speed cassette? The 11 speed XT cassette didn't come with a spacer like the 10 speed cassette did. However when I installed it onto my hadley hub, there was a little bit of play. I tried putting the 10 speed cassette spacer behind it, and that seemed to fix it. But could that be causing my problem?

I originally got this 11 speed drivetrain because I have having a similar, but worse probelm with the 10 speed drivetrain. This seemed to help a little bit, but still not working perfectly.

(and yes, I can tune a dereailluer)

 

[jonKranked]

@HAB should know the answer, i believe he has an identical setup.


also your chain might be on backwards.

 

[Nick]

does it happen in any gear?
also, like jk said, your chain might be on inside out.

 

[jonKranked]

is this an 11 speed hub?

chain might also be upside down

 

[slimshady]

I have a XT M8000 cassette on a SRAM X9 hub with Shimano-compatible freehub. My cassette fits perfectly, without any lateral play. You shouldn't need to use any kind of spacers there, since the pie plate cog sits offset to the spokes, over the hub flange.

EDIT: Are you using the M8000 cranks/chainring combo, or some narrow/wide solution from other brand? Shimano's oneby chainrings have taller, more square teeth, which I've seen being mentioned as noisier than regular N/W ones.

 

[gemini2k]

does it happen in any gear?
also, like jk said, your chain might be on inside out.

Mostly in the low (inboard) gears. Which leads me to believe that it's a chainring spacing issue. But it definitely happens in the middle gear, and an extra few mm of chainring spacing ain't gonna fix that.

99% sure chain is right side out, made sure of that when I was installing it. I'll double check though.

It's a brand new Hadley hub, pretty sure it's 11 speed compatible. But it was doing this with the 10 speed drivetrain too. Which leads me to believe that it's not an 11spd issue.

 

[Nick]

I have an 11-42 on a CK rear hub and I didn't need any extra spacers behind the cassette.

I'm assuming you're using a 1x chain ring, because you're enduro as fvck. Maybe what you're feeling is the chain not playing nicely with the narrow wide tooth profile?

 

[Dogboy]

An 11-speed HG mountain freehub body shouldn't be any wider than an 8/9/10-speed mountain freehub body. An 11-speed HG road freehub body is wider - because the innermost cog isn't dished over the spokes. So you shouldn't need any sort of spacer on there.

edit - I see that Hadley seems to be building the newer freehub bodies to the 11-speed road width, so I guess you do need a 1.85mm spacer.

 

[gemini2k]

I have an 11-42 on a CK rear hub and I didn't need any extra spacers behind the cassette.

I'm assuming you're using a 1x chain ring, because you're enduro as fvck. Maybe what you're feeling is the chain not playing nicely with the narrow wide tooth profile?

Strange that I shouldnt' need a spacer. Maybe I gotta double check the hub or send hadley an email (that was a joke). I had thought with the 10 speed that the chain/chainring might be an issue because it was a sram 10 spd chain with an e-13 10 spd chainring. But now I'm running 100% brand new shimano XT 11 spd drivetrain. Brand new everything. It seems strange (frustrating?) that the chain/chainring would be a problem with a unified setup.

P.S. I am enduro as fvck, 4k feet of climbing at santa cruz yesterday.

 

[HAB]

An 11-speed HG mountain freehub body shouldn't be any wider than an 8/9/10-speed mountain freehub body. An 11-speed HG road freehub body is wider - because the innermost cog isn't dished over the spokes. So you shouldn't need any sort of spacer on there.

edit - I see that Hadley seems to be building the newer freehub bodies to the 11-speed road width, so I guess you do need a 1.85mm spacer.

This.

If your freehub is one of the ones set up for an 11 speed road cassette, you need a spacer.

 

[wood booger]

Strange that I shouldnt' need a spacer. Maybe I gotta double check the hub or send hadley an email (that was a joke). I had thought with the 10 speed that the chain/chainring might be an issue because it was a sram 10 spd chain with an e-13 10 spd chainring. But now I'm running 100% brand new shimano XT 11 spd drivetrain. Brand new everything. It seems strange (frustrating?) that the chain/chainring would be a problem with a unified setup.

P.S. I am enduro as fvck, 4k feet of climbing at santa cruz yesterday.

I'm calling BS on that. I am pretty sure I could see your 11 foot tall mutant body and vomit inducing frame from anywhere in the county....

11 speed in general in more finicky, Shimano included.
But I do have an XT 11 spd cassette with SRAM 11 shifters and it is perfect! I am thinking your chain line is not "optimized".
See if you can measure from center of ST to center of teeth on chain ring, it should be around 49mm.

Spacer behind cassette would help, but that means you have a road cassette body for some reason. Definitely not room for a spacer behind 11 spd XT cassette on a mtb hub, it is tight.

 

[jonKranked]

This.

If your freehub is one of the ones set up for an 11 speed road cassette, you need a spacer.

i do believe this sounds correct.

but it still baffles me as to why road and mountain 11 speed stuff isn't spaced the same.

 

[HAB]

i do believe this sounds correct.

but it still baffles me as to why road and mountain 11 speed stuff isn't spaced the same.

Because fuck you, that's why.

Mountain stuff is actually spaced wider, in terms of spacing between each gear. The overall width of the cassette that interfaces with the driver ends up narrower though, because the cassette has some overlap on the inside. They couldn't do that on the road stuff, because they needed that room for derailleur clearance with the smaller cassette (with a 40t mountain cassette, the spokes have sloped a long way away from the cassette, but not so much with road).

 

[Nick]

also ... try it now.

 

[jonKranked]

Because fuck you, that's why.

Mountain stuff is actually spaced wider, in terms of spacing between each gear. The overall width of the cassette that interfaces with the driver ends up narrower though, because the cassette has some overlap on the inside. They couldn't do that on the road stuff, because they needed that room for derailleur clearance with the smaller cassette (with a 40t mountain cassette, the spokes have sloped a long way away from the cassette, but not so much with road).

also this way they got to make an extra standard.

 

[iRider]

Mountain stuff is actually spaced wider, in terms of spacing between each gear.

I thought it was not. But like you said, with the smaller largest cog on the road cassette it is too close to the spokes so they needed to get more room by widening the freehub body. On a MTB cassette they just moved the largest cog to the left, and therefore the space on the old freehub body was enough.

 

[gemini2k]

but it still baffles me as to why road and mountain 11 speed stuff isn't spaced the same.

Are...you...sh*tting me? Road and MTB is now different? What the hell?

Okay I'll emasure chainline, and call Hadley, see whats up.

 

[Dogboy]

Because fuck you, that's why.
They couldn't do that on the road stuff, because they needed that room for derailleur clearance with the smaller cassette (with a 40t mountain cassette, the spokes have sloped a long way away from the cassette, but not so much with road).

Pretty sure it's just the 23t low cog that forced the longer freehub body, I think they could've dished a 25t or higher over the spokes like the mountain stuff.

 

[HAB]

I thought it was not. But like you said, with the smaller largest cog on the road cassette it is too close to the spokes so they needed to get more room by widening the freehub body. On a MTB cassette they just moved the largest cog to the left, and therefore the space on the old freehub body was enough.

Shimano 11 speed mountain is 3.9mm pitch. Road is 3.69mm.

10 speed is 3.95mm, for reference.

 

[HAB]

Pretty sure it's just the 23t low cog that forced the longer freehub body, I think they could've dished a 25t or higher over the spokes like the mountain stuff.

Could be. I haven't looked at it that closely. My road bike is totally obsolete 10 speed nonsense (though it is Di2).

 

[iRider]

Shimano 11 speed mountain is 3.9mm pitch. Road is 3.69mm.

10 speed is 3.95mm, for reference.

So the bike shop dude that got this 'special training' from Shimano told me the wrong stuff. Great!
If even shops don't know what is compatible anymore, maybe the bike industry needs to stop introducing new standards.

 

[Sandwich]

Check to see if it's your clutch. When my bike is in the stand, I get some annoying noises that seem to go away when I flip the clutch lever. It's odd, but I haven't worked on the actual clutch adjustment yet, which you can change on these derailleurs.

Road and mtn 11 speed freehubs are different. I have an Onyx hub and it came with a road 11spd. I like it because it's virtually no different, but I can use the road standard once shimano introduces that as a competitor to eagle or whatever in another year. I have a small (~2mm) spacer behind my 11 speed 11-42 XT cassette.

The alignment on the setup is dreadful, if I were to do it again, I wouldn't. I can't backpedal in at least the two largest cogs, and sometimes the third. It does shift beautifully though

I get some creaking in my drivetrain with the clutch engaged, like I said. Give it a shot with the lever flipped and see if it goes away. The long term solution may be to decrease the tension on the clutch.

 

[HAB]

Shimano's chainline on 1x setups is dumb. I've been using a smaller spacer on the drive side BB cup than you're supposed to for years to improve it.

 

[Sandwich]

i have stupid pressfit and stupid cinch interface, so I have no option but to go fuck myself....at least it seems as such.

 

[HAB]

i have stupid pressfit and stupid cinch interface, so I have no option but to go fuck myself....at least it seems as such.

I think someone was making Cinch chainrings with slightly more offset than normal (but not as much as booooooooooost), but maybe I'm just making things up.

Edit: Wolf's Tooth and One Up both do, in round and oval versions, respectively. Both move the chainline in 2mm from a stock RF ring.

 

[jonKranked]

i have stupid pressfit and stupid cinch interface, so I have no option but to go fuck myself....at least it seems as such.

press fit.... mess shit... coincidence?

 

[iRider]

The alignment on the setup is dreadful, if I were to do it again, I wouldn't. I can't backpedal in at least the two largest cogs, and sometimes the third. It does shift beautifully though.

Can you elaborate? Jamming during backpedalling or is the chain skipping?

 

[StiHacka]

Can you elaborate? Jamming during backpedalling or is the chain skipping?

If it's like my 1x10 setup, the chain drops to middle or even small cogs at which point it gets pretty much jammed.

 

[troy]

The alignment on the setup is dreadful, if I were to do it again, I wouldn't. I can't backpedal in at least the two largest cogs, and sometimes the third. It does shift beautifully though

http://www.peterverdone.com/1x-11-speed-chains/

 

[wood booger]

http://www.peterverdone.com/1x-11-speed-chains

Oh man, I think you posted the wrong link. I fixed it for you!

 

[gemini2k]

Update:

Just got off the phone with Hadley, super helpful people A++++++
Apparently the hubs are spec-ed for the road spacing so people can use them for cyclecross type applications if they want. So you do need the spacer behind the cassette if you rock an MTB 11-speed cassette on there.
For reference my hub is 600135 Rev. 14

I tuned the chainring spacing on my bike, almost perfect now, could go in maybe 1-2 mm more, but it should be close enough. Also noticed that one of the secondary pivots was a touch loose, tightened the preload about half a turn. STILL have the same problem. It seems like its a little better, but it still "skips" under heavy load, and skips worse if the suspension is active at all (pedaling over a bump, or pedaling right after a big hit). Checked the frame alignment, on the stand it looks perfect. Hacktastic took a look at it, I trust his eyes more than mine. Eveyrthing else seems perfect. I'm almost out of ideas at this point.

 

[HAB]

Are you sure you guys aren't just blinded by the paint job on your bike, making it impossible to adjust the drivetrain correctly?

 

[gemini2k]

Don't worry we used protection during our investigation

 

[HAB]

Okay, so to try to actually be useful, you put the 1.85mm spacer you needed behind the cassette, and the issue persists? What is "skipping"? Is the bike halfway trying to shift? Is the chain not engaging with the chainring correctly?

 

[kidwoo]

Okay, so to try to actually be useful, you put the 1.85mm spacer you needed behind the cassette, and the issue persists? What is "skipping"? Is the bike halfway trying to shift? Is the chain not engaging with the chainring correctly?

He has a mohawk glued to the top of his fullface FWIW.

 

[HAB]

He has a mohawk glued to the top of his fullface FWIW.

Is this his car? I think it might actually be big enough for him to fit in.

 

[Kanye West]

Are you sure you guys aren't just blinded by the paint job on your bike, making it impossible to adjust the drivetrain correctly?

Not surprisingly, that's a legitimate problem when trying to troubleshoot that pile. Trying to look at the chainline with a sparkling pink backdrop from behind the derailleur does indeed burn the retinas.

 

[HAB]

 

[gemini2k]

Okay, so to try to actually be useful, you put the 1.85mm spacer you needed behind the cassette, and the issue persists? What is "skipping"? Is the bike halfway trying to shift? Is the chain not engaging with the chainring correctly?

Correct. It's not trying to shift. It's as if the chain is not engaging with the cassette/chainring properly. Small movements, not large gear-shifting type movements. I'm pretty sure it's coming from the rear end, and not the front chainring.

Maybe I should strap my contour to the frame to look at it while its doing it.

 

[HAB]

Could it be your freehub not engaging properly? Too heavy/too much grease in the pawls maybe?