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Stupid Ti spring question

MinorThreat

Turbo Monkey
Nov 15, 2005
1,630
41
Nine Mile Falls, WA
OK, I'm going to preface this by admitting that I'm opening myself up to some award for the dumbest question ever posted on the DH board but here goes:

I'm looking to do some weight-shaving this winter on my 303R and really want to replace the stock spring on my RC4 with a ti spring. It's 9.5x3 shock, takes a 3/3.25-stroke spring with an approx. 6.5" free length; and I'm running a 400# spring now. Yes, I KNOW an RCS or similar is the way to go - - I'll get a proper 1.38 ID and it will be wound perfectly for my DHX. But, dang, it's darned near $300 no matter how I cut it and - - well - - it's my sticking point for now.

Now here's where the dumb question comes in: I found a Manitou ti spring (36mm, or 1.41", ID) for just a touch over $100 - - a 3.5x400#, which puts its free length at 7.5". There's room on the shock body to allow for maybe a 7 or 7¼" fee length but 7.5 is just pushing it too much. Plus there's the issue of possible slop from the extra ID clearance.

So, what I'd like to know is . . . would it be an impossible task to shorten it - - in other words, pick a spot in the windings and reclose a new end (with some judicious bench vise and big-ass adjustable wrench work)and grind a new flat on the foreshortened new closed end? My concerns are how malleable ti is to do some 'shade-tree' home shop cold bending and if I could get the winding closed enough to create a good flat end. As far as grinding the end, I think I have access to a lathe to do it if I had to; but am of the feeling that a keen eye, a milled surface and a try-square, together with my trusty my belt sander, I could accomplish it that way.

On top of that, I'm also aware that shortening a spring increases its rate but have no yardstick for knowing how much that would be when losing 7-10% overall length from a 400# spring.

Talk me out of a $100 "experiment."
 
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climbingbubba

Monkey
May 24, 2007
354
0
I think the biggest problem would be that instead of the coil being completely flat on both shock collars you would have only a very small section that is flat touching one of the shock collars (where you cut it, even if it is shaved flat its still only a small part). I could see this causing the coil to bend in weird directions and bind and such.

Just keep an eye out on pinkbike, here, and ebay.

I just got a #400 X 2.75 progressive for my 9.5 X 3 shock. The progressive ones are actually rated for greater compression then listen on the coil so you typically can get away with a 2.75. Mine only weighed 250 grams so its a significant weight savings over a RCS 3.0 ti coil.
 

zdubyadubya

Turbo Monkey
Apr 13, 2008
1,273
96
Ellicott City, MD
dont do it. it will be a waste of the $100. Just save that money and put it towards a proper spring. Cold forming Ti springs does not yield good results. Ti deforms by twinning at low temperatures, a deformation mechanism that results in a massive decrease in the materials fatigue life. Not to mention the fact that reducing the number of free coils completely changes the spring rate.
 

Pslide

Turbo Monkey
I just got a #400 X 2.75 progressive for my 9.5 X 3 shock. The progressive ones are actually rated for greater compression then listen on the coil so you typically can get away with a 2.75. Mine only weighed 250 grams so its a significant weight savings over a RCS 3.0 ti coil.
Where did you find a progressive spring? What brand is it?

Do you notice any difference in the ride and bottom out resistance?

Progressive springs have intrigued me, but every time I look into it I run into a dead end finding a spring...
 

EVIL JN

Monkey
Jul 24, 2009
491
24
Does removing coils realy change spring rate, isnt the rate constant? Physics is not exactly my area of expertise but to me the only thing that would happen when removing free coils is that its stroke and free length has been changed but the spring still retains its orginal rate. Otherwise wouldnt that be the same as changing spring rate with preload, which doesnt change the rate.

Not trying to stir up trouble, i just like to try to understand applied physics.
 

mtg

Green with Envy
Sep 21, 2009
1,862
1,604
Denver, CO
Does removing coils realy change spring rate, isnt the rate constant? Physics is not exactly my area of expertise but to me the only thing that would happen when removing free coils is that its stroke and free length has been changed but the spring still retains its orginal rate. Otherwise wouldnt that be the same as changing spring rate with preload, which doesnt change the rate.

Not trying to stir up trouble, i just like to try to understand applied physics.
Yes, removing coils makes a coil spring stiffer. If you remove 10% of the coils, the spring is 10% stiffer for a normal coil spring.
 

MinorThreat

Turbo Monkey
Nov 15, 2005
1,630
41
Nine Mile Falls, WA
I think the biggest problem would be that instead of the coil being completely flat on both shock collars you would have only a very small section that is flat touching one of the shock collars (where you cut it, even if it is shaved flat its still only a small part). I could see this causing the coil to bend in weird directions and bind and such.
I could see that too. That's why I was thinking of 'closing' the end farther up before shaving it to give a near-full circumferential flat. However, zdub answered my question as far as how well ti cold-forms.

dont do it. it will be a waste of the $100. Just save that money and put it towards a proper spring. Cold forming Ti springs does not yield good results. Ti deforms by twinning at low temperatures, a deformation mechanism that results in a massive decrease in the materials fatigue life. Not to mention the fact that reducing the number of free coils completely changes the spring rate.
Thank you for that - -the kind of metallurgical knowledge I was hoping to tap here. Also thanks for the info on what shortening does to the rate. So . . . that would turn a 400# spring into a 440. Also not a good outcome.

Thanks again all. I'll just be patient and find the right spring at the right price.
 

NoUseForAName

Monkey
Mar 26, 2008
481
0
Where did you find a progressive spring? What brand is it?

Do you notice any difference in the ride and bottom out resistance?

Progressive springs have intrigued me, but every time I look into it I run into a dead end finding a spring...
I'm pretty sure he means Progressive branded, the guys behind 5th Element shocks. Not progressive wound.
 

mtg

Green with Envy
Sep 21, 2009
1,862
1,604
Denver, CO
BTW, for a cheaper weight savings, you might want to check out the light weight steel springs. I believe K9 sells them, and iirc, the cost wasn't much more than a standard steel spring, but the weight was around halfway between normal steel spring and Ti.

Anybody have experience with those? I think Eibach made them.
 

mtg

Green with Envy
Sep 21, 2009
1,862
1,604
Denver, CO
K9 spring info (300 lb/in weights)

Regular steel spring: 500g, 40£
Race steel spring: 360g, 90£
Titanium spring: 300g, 190£

I wonder if we can get those in the US of A.
 

MinorThreat

Turbo Monkey
Nov 15, 2005
1,630
41
Nine Mile Falls, WA
BTW, for a cheaper weight savings, you might want to check out the light weight steel springs. I believe K9 sells them, and iirc, the cost wasn't much more than a standard steel spring, but the weight was around halfway between normal steel spring and Ti.
Hey, thanks for that thought. Am exploring the K9 Race now - - just can't find a weight for the 400x3.0/3.25. Anyone got that? And for the steel Nuke Proof. For comparison sake, here is a partial list I was able to compile from claimed or SickLines weights (all 400#x3.0 or 3.25):


Ti:
Diverse (DSP) 437g
RCS 395g
Obtanium (+ Fox adapter) 321+39 = 360
Nuke Proof 363

Steel:
Fox (stock '10/newer) 580.5
Nuke Proof ????
K9 Race (+ Fox adapter collar) ???


I think Eibach made them.
(Note Eibach logo)

 

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staike

Monkey
May 19, 2011
247
0
Norway
The reason why the DSP is a little bit heavier is that it is made a lot better. The spring is tested to last 6 times as long as some competitors titanium springs. Or a total of around 1.000.000 full compressions.
 
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