http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2016144477_longshoremen09m.html
Does this sort of thing really win sympathy?
Does this sort of thing really win sympathy?
Suck it some more, unions!!!
- Thread starter MMike
- Start date
Jim Duscha 
Wait until you find out that invading Canada is the centerpiece of Obama's employment plan.
Washington's media has a long history of distorting facts about direct action by labor. Mischeif is a justifiable tactic, let's not pretend that there is any difference between a planted stooge at work trying to derail the movement, an embedded agent provocateur inciting violence or the brothers destroying crap that belongs to the boss to harm his profits.
Who threw the first blow? Were the operators armed? Did they present a reasonable direct threat? Is the media going to listen to protesters or pigs?
Who threw the first blow? Were the operators armed? Did they present a reasonable direct threat? Is the media going to listen to protesters or pigs?
ftfy.
When business does it, it's an amoral entity maximizing profit potential. When labor does it, it's terrorism.
Same as it ever was...
Not to say I support this, I don't know enough about it. To speak to a larger point though, does anyone think that a union member would care what someone the OP thinks about him? Union members clearly aren't as dumb as our President, who keeps trying to gain approval from people who think he should be serving the drinks.
Do you view people that did that 100 years ago as hero's of the labor movement?
Is the corporate leadership after-all not trying their damn hardest to bring things back to the way they were to increase profitability? Remember, 1$ an hour less to the guys at the bottom at a company with 1000 employees is more than $20,000,000 a year in the boards pocket.
Lets not also forget that said CEOs and CFOs also just saved a cool mil on the tax for that yacht they just bought.
You better bet people are going to be that pissed. Are they right? Maybe, do they have my sympathy, yes.
And too boot, that 40$ a week on to of those people's paycheck will do allot more in the economy, that the 5 mil, on top of the 50 mil, sitting in CEO Joe's bank account.
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and those union guys think barry should stick to basketball.
Racist blue-collar white men in America? That must be a new phenomenon you're referring to.
Unions and the GI bill created the middle class.
Milton Friedman and his cronies are destroying it and are flat out retarded.
Doesn't take a gown up to figure that one out.
bup bup bup....gums are still flapping.
Prove me wrong
Oh shut your hole. You know nothing about nothing. You won't impress with your wikipedia articles.
Unions are for the weak.
Get yourself a job at Boeing for a few years, observe their tactics and then get back to me.
In the meantime, shhht.
Excuse you, wikipedia articles? I've got 2 econ textbooks sitting under my desk right now. I would be quite surprised if you even new all the math involved with what the republicans allowed to happen.
Unions are for the weak? You are ignorant as all hell, I might be dumb, but WOW. Go read a history book fool,40 hour work weak and vacation pay mean anything to you
Working on my engineering degree right now (decided the econ/ poli sci one was a waste) so I may be there in 5 years.
In the mean time you know nothing about history or economics.
That's cute. Know ANYTHING about current labour laws? Pretty sure they apply to non-union workers too.
A man doesn't need a union
and engineering degrees are not that impressive.....you chose poorly
Your level or understanding of how said labor laws came into existence is poor at best.
Not trying to impress you buddy, looking for a good job
http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,2073703_2073653_2073690,00.html
My word you're thick....
I guess reading is beneath you then?
Or are books all of the sudden a bad way to learn, like how all the sudden engineering is a bad career choice?
MMike must be in management.
as hard as i find this now, but: i have to agree with meusheu on this.
you'd be working 80 h / week , monday through sunday for half the wage you have now, if it wasn't for unions.
"a man doesn't need a union" is about the dumbest thing i ever heard in this context.
and just to be clear: my family owns a medium sized company with 185 employees, producing welded and machined components for the machine building industry and my dad (a.k.a. THE boss) is a union member for over 50 years now and still pays his union fees. although we are "on the other side of the fence" and we did have tough conflicts with unions, there is no doubt in our minds, that unions are an integral and very important part of a emancipated relationship between employers and employees.
but what do we know, compared to a Boeing engineer who's on RM for the whoel day except for the 12 h he sleeps...
mMike, you must be a hell of a man, to have cut this deal with Boeing, that allows you to celebrate your 10th anniversary being on RM incl. 16,494 posts....
you'd be working 80 h / week , monday through sunday for half the wage you have now, if it wasn't for unions.
"a man doesn't need a union" is about the dumbest thing i ever heard in this context.
and just to be clear: my family owns a medium sized company with 185 employees, producing welded and machined components for the machine building industry and my dad (a.k.a. THE boss) is a union member for over 50 years now and still pays his union fees. although we are "on the other side of the fence" and we did have tough conflicts with unions, there is no doubt in our minds, that unions are an integral and very important part of a emancipated relationship between employers and employees.
but what do we know, compared to a Boeing engineer who's on RM for the whoel day except for the 12 h he sleeps...
mMike, you must be a hell of a man, to have cut this deal with Boeing, that allows you to celebrate your 10th anniversary being on RM incl. 16,494 posts....
Sigh....
I'm not going to say anything I haven't said before.
Yes I am at the dizzying heights of middle management
Unions had a place 100 years ago. But now they don't.
My dad was a scab for two Air Canada strikes. We even had a picket line form in our driveway. So I've never had any use for unions.
It may be that labour laws exist because of unions. But now they exist. Mission accomplished. But now unions are bloated and corrupt. holding companies hostage for GUARANTEED raised and security? How is that even logical?
And really....using Boeing as an example.....and I'll even direct this at meusheu, being the aspiring engineer. Do you believe a guy who bucks rivets all day long should be paid the same or more as the guy who designs the thing into which he is bucking the rivets? Honestly....think about what I'm saying. People are compensated based on the nebulous idea of their "value". So what's more difficult? Designing an airplane wing, or installing the rivets that hold it together? And what is more difficult? FINDING and employee who can design the wing, or the riveter? I'll let you think about those questions.
And Boeing's union the IAM (International assoc of machinsts)....the name is actually disrespectful to ACTUAL machinists. A real machinist or welder/fitter is a very noble and highly skilled trade. But don't kid yourself. Many IAM members have no more training than on day 1, someone handed them a bucking bar and said "Stand here". And if they "stand there" long enough, they do in fact end up making more money than the engineer designing the wing they are assembling. Does that make sense?
And furthermore, Bell Helicopter in Mirabel (where ALL of Bell's civilian machines have been made for over 20 years), IS NOT A UNION SHOP. And miraculously, they still have reasonable wages, a safe and clean work environment.....and Bell adheres to (and actually exceeds) legally mandated workplace standards. How can that be?
oh and I was a contract engineer at Boeing during the engineers' strike. The things that went on....my supposed "colleagues" out on the picket lines were jumping on the hoods of cars and harassing people. They were acting like the animals in the initial story in this thread. I refuse to call those people my peers.
(and even though they caused actual damage to peoples' private property, no-one was punished. It makes me sick. So whenever I hear about a strike and a picket line, I always hope for cold rainy weather for them)
I'm not going to say anything I haven't said before.
Yes I am at the dizzying heights of middle management
Unions had a place 100 years ago. But now they don't.
My dad was a scab for two Air Canada strikes. We even had a picket line form in our driveway. So I've never had any use for unions.
It may be that labour laws exist because of unions. But now they exist. Mission accomplished. But now unions are bloated and corrupt. holding companies hostage for GUARANTEED raised and security? How is that even logical?
And really....using Boeing as an example.....and I'll even direct this at meusheu, being the aspiring engineer. Do you believe a guy who bucks rivets all day long should be paid the same or more as the guy who designs the thing into which he is bucking the rivets? Honestly....think about what I'm saying. People are compensated based on the nebulous idea of their "value". So what's more difficult? Designing an airplane wing, or installing the rivets that hold it together? And what is more difficult? FINDING and employee who can design the wing, or the riveter? I'll let you think about those questions.
And Boeing's union the IAM (International assoc of machinsts)....the name is actually disrespectful to ACTUAL machinists. A real machinist or welder/fitter is a very noble and highly skilled trade. But don't kid yourself. Many IAM members have no more training than on day 1, someone handed them a bucking bar and said "Stand here". And if they "stand there" long enough, they do in fact end up making more money than the engineer designing the wing they are assembling. Does that make sense?
And furthermore, Bell Helicopter in Mirabel (where ALL of Bell's civilian machines have been made for over 20 years), IS NOT A UNION SHOP. And miraculously, they still have reasonable wages, a safe and clean work environment.....and Bell adheres to (and actually exceeds) legally mandated workplace standards. How can that be?
oh and I was a contract engineer at Boeing during the engineers' strike. The things that went on....my supposed "colleagues" out on the picket lines were jumping on the hoods of cars and harassing people. They were acting like the animals in the initial story in this thread. I refuse to call those people my peers.
(and even though they caused actual damage to peoples' private property, no-one was punished. It makes me sick. So whenever I hear about a strike and a picket line, I always hope for cold rainy weather for them)
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MMike hasn't worked for boeing in quite some time.
Will be 10 years on Dec 20......(holy lord....)
Wages have little to do with value these days across the spectrum. In the past there were large productive European companies paying their CEO/upper management less than 100K. Today companies paying them millions and adding a golden parachute have not helped the companies OR the employees below which do the real work and take the cuts for their unjustified pay when the top fails. The past productivity before this trend shows you don't need these inflated compensation packages to function optimally.
Unions are not a bad thing, but (like most things) they must be moderated.
Reminds me of something my biology major brother said: Successful parasites do not kill the host.
Reminds me of something my biology major brother said: Successful parasites do not kill the host.
I don;t think talking about CEO wages really is a fair comparison.
And while I'm at it..... People do like to dump on upper management. And while many are black-hearted soulless bastards, part of why they make so much is that part of their job is to be the bad guy. Without upper management, (and yes I am being charitable here), people would not have a place to go to work.
Making decisions that affect thousands of people is not easy.
Take Ford for instance. Alan Mulaly was the driving force behind the Boeing 777. He should have been CEO when Condit "left" but he was passed over. So he said "**** you" and went to ford. And Ford is doing relatively well these days. Sales have gone way up and lots of people are doing much better because of decisions that Alan Mulally has made. (and by the way, both Phil Condit and Alan Mulally are VERY smart guys and engineers by training.....which is why they had some credibility in my mind)
The gravity of the decisions made is much more profound the higher up the food chain you go. If an assembler accidentally grabs the wrong length bolt...."Oh woopsie"....change out the bolt....no-one might ever know. But the SAME type of mistake, just as innocuous made at a CEO level, could be devastating for many.
So there sort of is a reason CEO's get high compensation. They are the ones providing a place for people to complain.
(And as I said, I realize there is a large number of bad bad corrupt people out there)
And while I'm at it..... People do like to dump on upper management. And while many are black-hearted soulless bastards, part of why they make so much is that part of their job is to be the bad guy. Without upper management, (and yes I am being charitable here), people would not have a place to go to work.
Making decisions that affect thousands of people is not easy.
Take Ford for instance. Alan Mulaly was the driving force behind the Boeing 777. He should have been CEO when Condit "left" but he was passed over. So he said "**** you" and went to ford. And Ford is doing relatively well these days. Sales have gone way up and lots of people are doing much better because of decisions that Alan Mulally has made. (and by the way, both Phil Condit and Alan Mulally are VERY smart guys and engineers by training.....which is why they had some credibility in my mind)
The gravity of the decisions made is much more profound the higher up the food chain you go. If an assembler accidentally grabs the wrong length bolt...."Oh woopsie"....change out the bolt....no-one might ever know. But the SAME type of mistake, just as innocuous made at a CEO level, could be devastating for many.
So there sort of is a reason CEO's get high compensation. They are the ones providing a place for people to complain.
(And as I said, I realize there is a large number of bad bad corrupt people out there)
Fair enough.
quite accurate. Unions that keep demanding more and more, making the company less able to compete globally.....and then complaining when the company goes tits up? makes no sense.
And furthermore....if a company DOES go tits up? management and their inflated salaries? maybe. But really....do you really think that a CEO's salary will affect the actual sustainability of a company? Maybe....but if the company is hemorrhaging money to appease the union....meanwhile losing it's ability to compete and losing market share....I'm more likely to point to the latter.
I agree with you generally about unions, but please explain to me why US CEOs are apparently worth 10x their Japanese counterparts. See Mulally vs., say, the compensation of Honda.
The CEO's union of course.
Honestly I can't explain it. "free market" and whatnot.....I'm viewing more from within a single enterprise. (which perhaps is naive of me)
I blame cronyism. Same people searching for candidates, setting board and CEO compensation, and eventually filling those positions...
If it were a truly free market then CEO salaries would regress to the global mean but instead they're skyrocketing. After all, if any employee in a company can be drawn from a global talent pool rather than an inbred collection of groupthink Harvard MBA grads it should be the CEO, right?
So, you're OK with your pay being tied to the 'global mean'?
Seems fair to me, US doctors are some of the highest paid anywhere correct?
I certainly don't want to be paid the same as some Laotian, just because he exists. Free Market means you earn what you're worth (in real terms or your ability to sell your value to others), not that everything sinks to the lowest denominator by default.
People tell me constantly that my pricing (contractor) is expensive in relation to other companies. They are shocked that I don't care and won't price match some fool who doesn't value his time/services. The concept of 'Market Price' is complete BS.
I won't defend CEO pay as I agree it's absurd but running/owning a business isn't comparable to simply being a minion/cog in the machine. At all.
True enough. Because everyone knows that everyone from Harvard is douche!!
Medicine is a protected monopoly through the board certification/medical licensure process. It's hardly a free market. We already are open to any applicants who can meet the standards, in any case, and I'd venture that the proportion of immigrants who are physicians is much, much higher than the same within the group of, say, Fortune 500 CEOs.
CEOs require no special licensure, as far as I know. The only requirement to being a CEO is to convince a board to hire you, which harkens back to the whole perceived cronyism deal.
I'll "ditto" this. When I started as a lowly liaison engineer, designing repairs to primary aicraft structure, I was shocked to learn that our shop guys as young as me were making close to 6 figures, roughly 3 times what I was making at the time. To what? Drill 3 holes and install a nutplate on a piece of sheetmetal per the drawing? These weren't even A&P mechanics...........
Neither is our Little Rock shop, and for over 10 years have exceeded our Wichita "mothership's" saftey records.