$tinkle with a immigrant rant in 3....2.....1.....
Suck it some more, unions!!!
- Thread starter MMike
- Start date
Parasites don't make the host more healthy (US net economic surplus from illegals).
Modern medicine does use leaches and maggots (both FDA approved) with health as end result of therapy.
Board certification and licensure isn't unique to the medical field.
Hell, even realtors can claim that
The fact that you refer to it as a 'protected monopoly' is interesting.
That goes hand-in-hand with the general perception that medicine is an ego-fueled, price gouging enterprise. Just like construction.
What's stopping a Crazy Pete's Discount Radiology practice from opening up across from your hospital? My guess is some level of price-fixing cronyism/greed. Between the doctors and pharma salesmen in my family I KNOW that the medical field's **** stinks just like everyone else's.
As far as what it takes to 'qualify' to be a CEO (of any level of company, at any salary range) I'd bet the vast majority of people don't have what it takes.
Hold on a sec though, now that unions are being destroyed so are labor laws.
I'll take union bloating and corruption ANY day of the BLATANT CEO bloating in corruption (again you know I'm right here) It costs the same amount of money, and at least with the unions blue collar people see something out of it
I understand your point there, but I'm comparing a CEO to them, there is no way in hell the CEO of Boeing does 10000 times more work than some guy popping rivets. As well if you're working a full time job you should be making a LIVABLE wage, 40 hours a week of honest work should put a roof over your head and food on the plate END OF STORY. Wouldn't it be nice if people at places like say wal-mart or target had some sort of bargaining power to make it so they could reasonably provide for themselves.
That's 1 big company out of a thousand, I can spout of probably 100 places that don't pay a livable wage that could use some collective bargaining.
If only you would look past your narrow minded tax breaks, and take a look at some facts. The more money your average joe makes the better EVERYONE does. Get your greedy "I work for mine, so should every one else" head out your ass and realize these three FACTS, Unions are GOOD, Investing in education is the number 1 economic stimulus long term, and you have to tax the rich (after all capitalism is about making money for YOURSELF, not doing a damn bit of good for any one else, go look at the philanthropic numbers from the top 1%, there generosity is a flat out LIE)
Go crunch some numbers buddy, the inflated CEO incomes as of late account for WAY more than the "inflated" union pay.
Ok. Youre right.
FYI, union workers tend to vote democrat
http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/02/26/the-effects-of-union-membership-on-democratic-voting/
and i guess you've never met a union worker?
He's never had any actual interaction with anything. Meh...we all know he's young and stupid. One day he will see the error of his ways...while lamenting his unfortunate tatteus.....
My dad was a union cabinet maker for a long time. Then again this is California, so everyone votes Democrat.
Oh, and I didn't know you knew every union worker there is, and I also didn't know you were a credible source for news and statistics. I understand the stereotype you are portraying, but it's just that. Not a fact
Its clear they are ignorant as worship_mud, you and my own grandfather demonstrate.
My grandfather was a master carpenter and in the union. As a young man he was in a heavy artillery unit as of part the Invasion of Normandy. After the war, like his father, he became a master carpenter and his work is still found all over the Upstate NY and him and my grandmother have volunteered at various local charitable organizations including a children hospital and the historical society (MMike can instead boast posting useless BS on RM as his contribution to society).
At nearly 90 (88 pictured below) he's recently completed projects around his home most suburbanites could never have a chance in at - he took down a large tree by himself piece by piece like an arborist would with climbing equipment and pulleys (another job he had growing up). He replaced all the windows in his home by himself, he replaced his hot water tank in the basement by himself (and removed the old one), and he put an addition on his house (the only project he had help since it requires permits and has certain regulations etc).
He won't let anyone do work for him a fact that really pisses off my mother and other family members because he's so old and one day he might hurt himself.
Another stereotype that's probably for Mike - like many engineers - people like Mike wouldn't have a chance in hell doing basic work like that around his house let alone precision master carpentry or machine shop work which is why they get paid more than entry level engineers - they have decades more experience and can do things that require a lot of skill and training and they work around dangerous equipment and materials (he was exposed to asbestos several times in his trade and developed stomach cancer (which he beat)). He has not been compensated by the companies who did that to him BTW.
One of his son's (my uncle) was also a carpenter at a custom cabinetry shop. He was non union. He has been hurt several times on the job (his shoulder) and recently his back since that company favors profit over worker safety and health (and the poor quality surgery he was able to afford failed). He now can no longer perform his job and has been screwed by the owner of that business (they did not carry workmans comp insurance which is required by law in the state). After much legal wrangling he got a small settlement, certainly not enough to cover a career ending injury. Unions clearly still have their place in society.
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My grandfather can beat up your grandfather.
It should be obvious to anyone who isn't a retard, but one should not confuse my disdain for unions with a lack of respect for tradesmen. A skilled tradesmen deserves to be compensated for his skill. But there are PLENTY of unskilled CNC machine operators who change out the work piece and push the button who are members of the IAM (and call themselves "machinists"). Not the same thing at all.
Again...learning to buck a rivet is not a skilled trade. Filling a row of holes with rivets does not require the same skill as machining a part on a manual machine.
There are scores of IAM members who are NOT skilled tradesmen.....and end up making more than "well beyond entry level" engineers.
and that is not right.
Again...learning to buck a rivet is not a skilled trade. Filling a row of holes with rivets does not require the same skill as machining a part on a manual machine.
There are scores of IAM members who are NOT skilled tradesmen.....and end up making more than "well beyond entry level" engineers.
and that is not right.
did i say that?
Try this on for size, over pay said "unskilled union member" and they can then actually afford a vacation, afford the flight, pay the airline, keep Boeing in business or we can give them all 10$ an hour (which isn't really enough to live off of) they don't have the money to go on vacation, they never see the inside of a plane, and you're out of work because no one needs your "skills"
and remember on the flip side, we can pay them 10$ an hour, the boss makes millions, and you just get laid off for lack of work. Then the only one who wins is the boss, and the guy who does custom jobs on AMG Mercedes.
Seriously....are you high?
I was trying to demonstrate a concept. The whole idea that we all make more and we all do better in the end
Perpetual motion is a totally sound theory.
I'm in agreement. For a dude who can quote his economic theories at whim, I'm not sure where this perversion of logic could come from.
It's really simple actually. The idea is rich people don't spend as much of their income as the middle class and the poor. So when you increase the middle class's income they buy more, and when they buy more EVERYONE does better. It's a pretty basic concept, if that's a perversion of logic you're twice the retard I am
MMike-
It is sorta bull**** that a guy who rivits **** gets paid more money than a completely un-skilled recent engineering graduate, but the point of a trade union is to create a solid block of fabricators to offsett the threat of pressure by management, AKA Solidarity. Workers need to act as a block. Big whoop if some of them make more money than you think they should.
You appear to be a crusty old(er) engineer, so I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you are capable of critical thinking skills and perhaps understand the nitty-gritty of making stuff.
I live in Massachusetts, the college capital of the world. I know an unfathomable amount of "engineers" and engineering students from prestigious universities.
Since you're making generalizations I will too. M.eng and BSME students, on the whole are useless, clueless and dangerous with their cavalier god-like attitudes. They don't even understand how a bicycle works, most of them have never been in a machine shop or fabricated anything in their lives and they lack the fundamental knowledge of how stuff is actually made.
They are directionless cad-jockeys who's job it is to make pictures of stuff for the production engineers in China to figure out how to make. The kids are obsolete before they graduate. Boeing of wherever the heck you work is crawling with these kids, we see them graduate and move on. In a just world they'd be out on the floor learning some skills and how **** is actually made, but it would take Union men and women to teach them...
In a labor debate both sides need to be examined for anything just to happen.
It is sorta bull**** that a guy who rivits **** gets paid more money than a completely un-skilled recent engineering graduate, but the point of a trade union is to create a solid block of fabricators to offsett the threat of pressure by management, AKA Solidarity. Workers need to act as a block. Big whoop if some of them make more money than you think they should.
You appear to be a crusty old(er) engineer, so I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you are capable of critical thinking skills and perhaps understand the nitty-gritty of making stuff.
I live in Massachusetts, the college capital of the world. I know an unfathomable amount of "engineers" and engineering students from prestigious universities.
Since you're making generalizations I will too. M.eng and BSME students, on the whole are useless, clueless and dangerous with their cavalier god-like attitudes. They don't even understand how a bicycle works, most of them have never been in a machine shop or fabricated anything in their lives and they lack the fundamental knowledge of how stuff is actually made.
They are directionless cad-jockeys who's job it is to make pictures of stuff for the production engineers in China to figure out how to make. The kids are obsolete before they graduate. Boeing of wherever the heck you work is crawling with these kids, we see them graduate and move on. In a just world they'd be out on the floor learning some skills and how **** is actually made, but it would take Union men and women to teach them...
In a labor debate both sides need to be examined for anything just to happen.
Ok well I think we have drifted a little off topic somewhat...(that NEVER happens!)
But yes. I totally agree that useful engineers tend to be few and far between. I'd like to think that I was at one time useful.....as I did a decent amount of time doing "real" work in machine shops....a LITTLE bit of welding...actually not enough to even mention probably, and some sheet metal fabrication. I have safety boots with the toes worn through. I even know how to oil and impact gun. I'm not saying that I'm good at any of those things. I'm saying that I appreciate how difficult it is to be good at those things.
While at Boeing (which was 10 years ago.....laid of Dec 20, 2011 after Boeing axed all the contractors....9/11) But I worked in the shop as engineering support to production.
So I do in fact have scars on my knuckles and DO have an appreciation and respect for skilled tradesmen. (3rd time I'm saying it now).
But also consider this:
To predict within a few percent exactly when this was going to break? That's more than a weekend seminar to learn that.
I've worked with plenty of useless engineers. I've even fired a couple.
My issue is not with "labour". It's the sense of entitlement that the unions promote. (and this goes the the unionized engineers at Boeing!)
To be guaranteed a raise, just for showing up does not make sense. Regardless of how incompetent you are, or the health of the company, a guy with no real training gets guaranteed job security??? how is this not obviously ridiculous to everyone?
I don't have guaranteed job security or pay raises.
(and what I said was not bull****. And Andyman even backed me up. unskilled labour at Boeing can make a ****pile of money. and call me an elitist but people with no more training than a walmart greeter shouldn't make more than an engineer with a degree. (even if he is green, right out of school).
Oh and I refuse to hire engineers with masters degrees.....or at least when I'm going through resumes, they go to the bottom of the pile. because they tend to lack the ability to relate theory to real life. I worked with a guy who was very smart. But I could hand him a pencil and tell him it was 8 feet long. He wouldn't have questioned it.
But yes. I totally agree that useful engineers tend to be few and far between. I'd like to think that I was at one time useful.....as I did a decent amount of time doing "real" work in machine shops....a LITTLE bit of welding...actually not enough to even mention probably, and some sheet metal fabrication. I have safety boots with the toes worn through. I even know how to oil and impact gun. I'm not saying that I'm good at any of those things. I'm saying that I appreciate how difficult it is to be good at those things.
While at Boeing (which was 10 years ago.....laid of Dec 20, 2011 after Boeing axed all the contractors....9/11) But I worked in the shop as engineering support to production.
So I do in fact have scars on my knuckles and DO have an appreciation and respect for skilled tradesmen. (3rd time I'm saying it now).
But also consider this:
To predict within a few percent exactly when this was going to break? That's more than a weekend seminar to learn that.
I've worked with plenty of useless engineers. I've even fired a couple.
My issue is not with "labour". It's the sense of entitlement that the unions promote. (and this goes the the unionized engineers at Boeing!)
To be guaranteed a raise, just for showing up does not make sense. Regardless of how incompetent you are, or the health of the company, a guy with no real training gets guaranteed job security??? how is this not obviously ridiculous to everyone?
I don't have guaranteed job security or pay raises.
(and what I said was not bull****. And Andyman even backed me up. unskilled labour at Boeing can make a ****pile of money. and call me an elitist but people with no more training than a walmart greeter shouldn't make more than an engineer with a degree. (even if he is green, right out of school).
Oh and I refuse to hire engineers with masters degrees.....or at least when I'm going through resumes, they go to the bottom of the pile. because they tend to lack the ability to relate theory to real life. I worked with a guy who was very smart. But I could hand him a pencil and tell him it was 8 feet long. He wouldn't have questioned it.
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You seem to be making progress. Last year it was the PhDs that you chucked. Can we look forward to the days when you start recruiting from *gasp* those without degrees *gasp*. Where would you find skilled people who don't have an engineering degree though?
I heard that the unions are full of unskilled chimps.
See, the problem is that Mike's an engineer. To stereotype, engineers are frequently very very good in their area of practice, and can borderline retarded in other areas. Just like other fields, except for the fact that you don't need to be a lawyer to grasp some layman's concepts in the law, you don't need to be a CPA to balance a checkbook. Engineering knowledge has a higher barrier to entry to the layman, unless you're in a discussion with 9/11 truthers. That's why there are so many engineers among creationists. They think that just because they are smart engineers, they know something about biology. Then they make incredible asses of themselves.
I've never been in a union, I'm the mythical small (very small) business owner that the GOP likes to fellate (I don't partake, they are way too toothy) and I have a business degree. So why do I generally support unions? Because they are a counterweight (ineffective to a large degree, but still necessary imo) to the incredible distortionary power on labor markets that large corporations possess. We can have a scandal where the FIRE industries literally bend over the county and **** it in the ass sans lube, and no one says we need to destroy corporations...
edit: before your e-panties bunch, read the bold part I added.
I've never been in a union, I'm the mythical small (very small) business owner that the GOP likes to fellate (I don't partake, they are way too toothy) and I have a business degree. So why do I generally support unions? Because they are a counterweight (ineffective to a large degree, but still necessary imo) to the incredible distortionary power on labor markets that large corporations possess. We can have a scandal where the FIRE industries literally bend over the county and **** it in the ass sans lube, and no one says we need to destroy corporations...
edit: before your e-panties bunch, read the bold part I added.
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I found doing a Masters to be exactly the opposite. While there was additional obscure theoretical stuff, there was also the opportunity to let a lot of the concepts of undergrad sink in and recognize the applicability of a lot of the theoretical stuff to real life. Being a TA and actually having to explain a lot of these things to others definitely helped with this. Additionally, I thought that it was incredibly useful to gain experience working on a longer term project (ie thesis) AND I was able to spend considerably more time in the machine shop (not that I'm remotely skilled at any of that stuff).
I'll let you know ahead of time... its not worth your time. I've been down this road with him before. There is no changing his mind. He likes his little world view and prefers to stay within the comfort zone of surrounding himself with people who are "less-educated" than he.
Okay, real quick lesson. You're actually right that trickle up is real, and trickle down is bull****. However, you need to go one step further - you can't just push more money into the bottom of the pyramid. You HAVE to be paying people to create value. If the additional money doesn't result in an additional good (preferably) or a service, you're destroying value and ultimately mortgaging short term comfort against long term crash.
Actually the majority of our design team do NOT have degrees. only 5 out of 12 of us have an eng degree.You seem to be making progress. Last year it was the PhDs that you chucked. Can we look forward to the days when you start recruiting from *gasp* those without degrees *gasp*. Where would you find skilled people who don't have an engineering degree though?
And three of them are former aircraft maintenance techs (AME's)
So there.
Thank you, the logic circle is now complete. Mooshu, please learn something here.
I understand that entirely. I chose to ignore that fact, higher paid people, especially one who "think" for a living, tend to over value their work, and have no concept of a hard days work with their hands
transportation safety administration?
Ah....I think we've just found the root of the problem.....
I've teed it up.....anyone want to hit it out of the park?
So a CEO making 20 million a year, does literally a THOUSAND times more work than the guy making 10$ an hour setting joints for some corporate cabinet maker? I don't know if you've ever done it, but it's damn hard. I would have ten times the trouble trying to make a nice dovetail joint, as doing my calc homework
Union jobs are called SKILLED labor for a reason
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Ok I grew weary of typing the same stuff again and again.
Yes. There is such thing as skilled labour. This is now the FOURTH time I'm saying it. There are also numerous UNSKILLED (back to the bucking rivets)
Yes working with your hands is hard.
Does the CEO do a thousand times more.....I'd say arguably yes. The decisions he makes impacts the entire enterprise. So if he does a good job, everyone wins.
(And I'm deliberately ignoring the case where he ****s up and still gets his bonus. THAT is NOT right.
But YES the CEO is 1000 times more important than the line worker to the enterprise.
Yes. There is such thing as skilled labour. This is now the FOURTH time I'm saying it. There are also numerous UNSKILLED (back to the bucking rivets)
Yes working with your hands is hard.
Does the CEO do a thousand times more.....I'd say arguably yes. The decisions he makes impacts the entire enterprise. So if he does a good job, everyone wins.
(And I'm deliberately ignoring the case where he ****s up and still gets his bonus. THAT is NOT right.
But YES the CEO is 1000 times more important than the line worker to the enterprise.
For some one who doesn't work with your hands you seems a good judge of how hard things are
1000 times more important is not 1000 times more work dude. If we payed people based on how IMPORTANT their jobs were teachers would make loads more, and investment bankers wouldn't make dick.
i lol'd. on a serious note... is TSA organized? or just another gubment gig where the paperwork required to fire you is more work than just keeping your around and putting you in a corner?
shwee pue capab
I guess you've had some rough summer jobs "in the trenches"? Champion of the common man, with the tats to prove it?