Suck It Up Princess!

DRB · Apr 2, 2003

Originally posted by Longarm500
That's o.k...I forgive you!! J/K from an old NCO. :devil:

My first platoon sargent broke into my office, took my compass, and had a huge ceremony then he smashed it in front of the entire platoon. His speech was short but sweet... "I just disarmed the most dangerous thing in the army."

I still have the remains of that compass in a box.

Jorvik · Apr 2, 2003

As far as the pressure Marine recruiters put on you, let me tell you, it is intense. They definatly know what they're doing. They are probably the most dedicated salesmen, if you will, in our country. I get calls from the local recruiter here pretty much bi-weekly, trying to get me to join up for the reserves. I don't want anything interfering with my education, however, so am opting for NRTOC instead.

As far as this guy goes: Disgrace. He doesn't have what it takes to respect the uniform of the United States Marine. Hang him out to dry.

patconnole · Apr 2, 2003

Originally posted by BurlySurly
You totally have no idea.

You're right, I'd choke myself with my own hand.

valve bouncer · Apr 3, 2003

Originally posted by Damn True
He'll be damn lucky if he dosen't wind up charged with sedition in addition to being awol.

I want to break that little pansies kneecaps. Contientous objector my ass. He is a coward.

ROTFLMAO@ DT. Between you and BS I've never encountered a bigger pair of drama queens in my life. Save your outrage for the likes of Waddle and Calley, people who really deserve it for besmirching the honour of your beloved military.
If this gets you so riled you must be walking around permanently frothing at the mouth and turning purple with indignation. Dare I say, "get a life"? :rolleyes:

BurlyShirley · Apr 3, 2003

Originally posted by valve bouncer
ROTFLMAO@ DT. Between you and BS I've never encountered a bigger pair of drama queens in my life. Save your outrage for the likes of Waddle and Calley, people who really deserve it for besmirching the honour of your beloved military.
If this gets you so riled you must be walking around permanently frothing at the mouth and turning purple with indignation. Dare I say, "get a life"?

: yawn.
So typical.

I think its great how people on this board absolutely flip out when someone breaks an E-Bay contract. When they know a guy who knows a guy who got swindled for $9 over some used brake pads. But when someone breaks a REAL contract, to which they've signed their name, and pledged their alleigance before the flag, for the people it represents, Its no big deal and the people who're pissed are drama queens. This guy not only abandoned his fellow Marines during a time of WAR, but also wasted YOUR tax money and mine so he could pussy foot around, create a media frenzy, and draw more anti government sentiment Just what we all need in our country these days.
Great thinking Valve Bouncer, you've proven yourself irrelevent yet again.

valve bouncer · Apr 3, 2003

Originally posted by BurlySurly
: yawn.
So typical.

I think its great how people on this board absolutely flip out when someone breaks an E-Bay contract. When they know a guy who knows a guy who got swindled for $9 over some used brake pads. But when someone breaks a REAL contract, to which they've signed their name, and pledged their alleigance before the flag, for the people it represents, Its no big deal and the people who're pissed are drama queens. This guy not only abandoned his fellow Marines during a time of WAR, but also wasted YOUR tax money and mine so he could pussy foot around, create a media frenzy, and draw more anti government sentiment Just what we all need in our country these days.
Great thinking Valve Bouncer, you've proven yourself irrelevent yet again.

I guess the "drama queens" quip really got to you didn't it. Well suck it up princess. I mean I could care less what happened on E-bay (nice non-sequitir btw) and even less about some idiot going awol, I was just commenting on the teeth gnashing and panty twisting of you and the rest of the Sara Bernhardt crowd. Of course that would go way over your head wouldn't it as YOU have proven YOURSELF an imbecile yet again.

Longarm500 · Apr 3, 2003

Originally posted by DRB
My first platoon sargent broke into my office, took my compass, and had a huge ceremony then he smashed it in front of the entire platoon. His speech was short but sweet... "I just disarmed the most dangerous thing in the army."

I still have the remains of that compass in a box.

That is freakin' funny!!! I only recently got out of the service (November) and consistantly tested my LT's patience. SHE was green and I would call her on all kinds of stuff that she would say. The best part was that her 5'1" frame would get so pissed at me that a large vein would protrude from her forehead, her eyes would go googly and her face would be beet red!!! :devil: In actuality we were friends and she was a very good LT...she took care of her folks...and that's what counted for me.....I just had to "check" her on occasion.

N8 v2.0 · Apr 3, 2003

Especially compaired to Pfc. Jessica Lynch......

'She Was Fighting to the Death'
Details Emerging of W. Va. Soldier's Capture and Rescue

By Susan Schmidt and Vernon Loeb
Washington Post Staff Writers
Thursday, April 3, 2003; Page A01

Pfc. Jessica Lynch, rescued Tuesday from an Iraqi hospital, fought fiercely and shot several enemy soldiers after Iraqi forces ambushed the Army's 507th Ordnance Maintenance Company, firing her weapon until she ran out of ammunition, U.S. officials said yesterday.

Lynch, a 19-year-old supply clerk, continued firing at the Iraqis even after she sustained multiple gunshot wounds and watched several other soldiers in her unit die around her in fighting March 23, one official said. The ambush took place after a 507th convoy, supporting the advancing 3rd Infantry Division, took a wrong turn near the southern city of Nasiriyah.

"She was fighting to the death," the official said. "She did not want to be taken alive."

(READ MORE)

valve bouncer · Apr 3, 2003

Originally posted by N8
Especially compaired to Pfc. Jessica Lynch......

'She Was Fighting to the Death'
Details Emerging of W. Va. Soldier's Capture and Rescue

By Susan Schmidt and Vernon Loeb
Washington Post Staff Writers
Thursday, April 3, 2003; Page A01

Pfc. Jessica Lynch, rescued Tuesday from an Iraqi hospital, fought fiercely and shot several enemy soldiers after Iraqi forces ambushed the Army's 507th Ordnance Maintenance Company, firing her weapon until she ran out of ammunition, U.S. officials said yesterday.

Lynch, a 19-year-old supply clerk, continued firing at the Iraqis even after she sustained multiple gunshot wounds and watched several other soldiers in her unit die around her in fighting March 23, one official said. The ambush took place after a 507th convoy, supporting the advancing 3rd Infantry Division, took a wrong turn near the southern city of Nasiriyah.

"She was fighting to the death," the official said. "She did not want to be taken alive."

(READ MORE)

I guess some people from the "Women in Combat" thread will be revising their positions after this. I'm guessing Renee Zwelleger will play her in the movie.

Damn True · Apr 3, 2003

She is ten times the man that Funk is.

Valve Bouncer, care to explain your point w/o the use of snide little insults? Honestly, Id like to know what it is.

I have some pretty strong beliefs about what it means to show honor, courage and devotion to duty. All of those beliefs were taught to me during my time in the US Military. This kid made a promise to uphold those values. He took the fruits of making that commitment, but ran like a scalded cat when his country asked him to stand up to his end of his promise. Makes me mad. Why does that bother you so?

ohio · Apr 3, 2003

Originally posted by Damn True

I have some pretty strong beliefs ....

You don't say?

Hadn't noticed... :rolleyes:

Damn True · Apr 3, 2003

Originally posted by ohio
You don't say?

Hadn't noticed...

Smart-a$$

....and you dont?

valve bouncer · Apr 3, 2003

Originally posted by Damn True
She is ten times the man that Funk is.

Valve Bouncer, care to explain your point w/o the use of snide little insults? Honestly, Id like to know what it is.

I have some pretty strong beliefs about what it means to show honor, courage and devotion to duty. All of those beliefs were taught to me during my time in the US Military. This kid made a promise to uphold those values. He took the fruits of making that commitment, but ran like a scalded cat when his country asked him to stand up to his end of his promise. Makes me mad. Why does that bother you so?

Sedition, as I understand it is incitement to rebellion against the state. A gross over-reaction as I see it. I was calling you on that. Melodrama, as I understand it is an inclination towards the overly dramatic or sensational. You're guilty of that I'm afraid DT no matter how much you try to gild the lily with your platitudes of honour and devotion. I wasn't sticking up for this guy, he'll have to bear the consequences of his action but those consequences must be commensurate with the offence and however much you think it to be sedition DT, mate it ain't.
More than a decade ago my father and I drove the son of a close family friend to the Karrakatta barracks in Perth for him to turn himself in after having been AWOL for a considerable period of time. Before going AWOL he had been in the army for some length of time (more than a year as I recall) and I remember him coming home a changed man on his leave and it certainly wasn't a change for the better. The Army was clearly fu*cking with his head in a serious way. It was pretty clear to us that sooner or later something had to give. He eventually freaked out and went AWOL.
Even though his action in going AWOL was the wrong way for him to deal with his problems I couldn't help but feel sorry for him as I watched him breakdown in fear and despair as he went to face his fate. Fortunately the Australian Army had/has a refreshingly pragmatic approach to this situation and after a period in a "military jail" he was released both from jail and the army without further sanction. The army seems to be realise that not everybody is cut out for the military and while some are weeded out early it takes a lot longer in some cases. The point being is that when someone wants to leave that badly it's probably better to let them leave. As someone else in this thread pointed out, it's better for him to do this now than when he's facing down the Rep. Guard in Baghdad and he leaves his buddies in the lurch.
The armed forces, like any organsation is made of humans complete with both virtues and frailties. Facing the grim reality of battle and perhaps death it is hardly surprising that some (to their credit very few) soldiers can't just "suck it up". Of course that just can't be accepted and this guy must face some sanction, certainly a few weeks or even months in the brig/stockade, whatever you call it, he should also probably lose any privileges he might have accrued as a member of the military. Maybe even a "BCD". But unless I'm mistaken sedition is punishable by death and this is clearly uncalled for in this instance, your injured sense of honour not-withstanding DT.
I hope this makes my position a little clearer.

Damn True · Apr 3, 2003

Under the articles of the Uniform Code of Military Justice his activity very well could be construed by military law as sedition in time of war. Below are the articles that Funk is in breach of. I doubt he will be charged with all of them, but he certainly could be charged with any of them.

885. ART. 85. DESERTION
(a) Any member of the armed forces who--
(1) without authority goes or remains absent from his unit, organization, or place of duty with intent to remain away therefrom permanently;
(2) quits his unit, organization, or place of duty with intent to avoid hazardous duty or to shirk important service; or
(3) without being regularly separated from one of the armed forces enlists or accepts an appointment in the same or another on of the armed forces without fully disclosing the fact that he has not been regularly separated, or enters any foreign armed service except when authorized by the United States; is guilty of desertion.
(b) Any commissioned officer of the armed forces who, after tender of his resignation and before notice of its acceptance, quits his post or proper duties without leave and with intent to remain away therefrom permanently is guilty of desertion.
(c) Any person found guilty of desertion or attempt to desert shall be punished, if the offense is committed in time of war, by death or such other punishment as a court-martial may direct, but if the desertion or attempt to desert occurs at any other time, by such punishment, other than death, as a court-martial may direct.

866. ART. 86. ABSENCE WITHOUT LEAVE
Any member of the armed forces who, without authority--
(1) fails to go to his appointed place of duty at the time prescribed;
(2) goes from that place; or
(3) absents himself or remains absent from his unit, organization, or place of duty at which he is required to be at the time prescribed; shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.

887. ART. 87. MISSING MOVEMENT
Any person subject to this chapter who through neglect or design misses the movement of a ship, aircraft, or unit with which he is required in the course of duty to move shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.

888. ART. 88. CONTEMPT TOWARD OFFICIALS
Any commissioned officer who uses contemptuous words against the President, the Vice President, Congress, the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of a military department, the Secretary of Transportation, or the Governor or legislature of any State, Territory, Commonwealth, or possession in which he is on duty or present shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.

889. ART. 89 DISRESPECT TOWARD SUPERIOR COMMISSIONED OFFICER
Any person subject to this chapter who behaves with disrespect toward his superior commissioned officer shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.

809. ART. 90. ASSAULTING OR WILLFULLY DISOBEYING SUPERIOR COMMISSIONED OFFICER.
Any person subject to this chapter who--
(1) strikes his superior commissioned officer or draws or lifts up any weapon or offers any violence against him while he is in the execution of his officer; or
(2) willfully disobeys a lawful command of his superior commissioned officer;
shall be punished, if the offense is committed in time of war, by death or such other punishment as a court-martial may direct, and if the offense is committed at any other time, by such punishment, other than death, as a court-martial may direct.

891. ART. 91. INSUBORDINATE CONDUCT TOWARD WARRANT OFFICER, NONCOMMISSIONED OFFICER, OR PETTY OFFICER
Any warrant officer or enlisted member who--
(1) strikes or assaults a warrant officer, noncommissioned officer, or petty officer, while that officer is in the execution of his office;
(2) willfully disobeys the lawful order of a warrant officer, noncommissioned officer, or petty officer; or
(3) treats with contempt or is disrespectful in language or deportment toward a warrant officer, noncommissioned officer, or petty officer while that officer is in the execution of his office;
shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.

892. ART. 92. FAILURE TO OBEY ORDER OR REGULATION
Any person subject to this chapter who--
(1) violates or fails to obey any lawful general order or regulation;
(2) having knowledge of any other lawful order issued by any member of the armed forces, which it is his duty to obey, fails to obey the order; or
(3) is derelict in the performance of his duties;
shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.

894. ART. 94. MUTINY OR SEDITION
(a) Any person subject to this chapter who--
(1) with intent to usurp or override lawful military authority, refuses, in concert with any other person, to obey orders or otherwise do his duty or creates any violence or disturbance is guilty of mutiny;
(2) with intent to cause the overthrow or destruction of lawful civil authority, creates, in concert with any other person, revolt, violence, or disturbance against that authority is guilty of sedition;
(3) fails to do his utmost to prevent and suppress a mutiny or sedition being committed in his presence, or fails to take all reasonable means to inform his superior commissioned officer or commanding officer of a mutiny or sedition which he knows or has reason to believe is taking place, is guilty of a failure to suppress or report a mutiny or sedition.
(b) A person who is found guilty of attempted mutiny, mutiny, sedition, or failure to suppress or report a mutiny or sedition shall be punished by death or such other punishment as a court- martial may direct.

916. ART. 116. RIOT OR BREACH OF PEACE
Any person subject to this chapter who causes or participates in any riot or breach of the peace shall be punished as a court- martial may direct.

917. ART. 117. PROVOKING SPEECHES OR GESTURES
Any person subject to this chapter who uses provoking or reproachful words or gestures towards any other person subject to this chapter shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.

934. ART. 134. GENERAL ARTICLE
Though not specifically mentioned in this chapter, all disorders and neglects to the prejudice of good order and discipline in the armed forces, all conduct of a nature to bring discredit upon the armed forces, and crimes and offenses not capital, of which persons subject to this chapter may be guilty, shall be taken cognizance of by a general, special or summary court-martial, according to the nature and degree of the offense, and shall be punished at the discretion of that court.

As for your commntary on my sense of honor (a concept with which you clearly have little experience, though many in your military proudly uphold alongside our troops in Iraq today) I merely submit the following oath of enlistment and US Military Code of Conduct which should provide all necessary clarification of what is expected of a US military member.

Enlistment Oath

In the Armed Forces EXCEPT the National Guard (Army or Air)

I, ___________________________________, do solemly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed overme, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.

US Military Code of Conduct

I

I am an American, fighting in the forces which guard my country and our way of life. I am prepared to give my life in their defense.

II

I will never surrender of my own free will. If in command, I will never surrender the members of my command while they still have the means to resist.

III

If I am captured I will continue to resist by all means available. I will make every effort to escape and to aid others to escape. I will accept neither parole nor special favors from the enemy.

IV

If I become a prisoner of war, I will keep faith with my fellow prisoners. I will give no information or take part in any action which might be harmful to my comrades. If I am senior, I will take command. If not, I will obey the lawful orders of those appointed over me and will back them up in every way.

V

When questioned, should I become a prisoner of war, I am required to give name, rank, service number, and date of birth. I will evade answering further questions to the utmost of my ability. I will make no oral or written statements disloyal to my country and its allies or harmful to their cause.

VI

I will never forget that I am an American, fighting for freedom, responsible for my actions, and dedicated to the principles which made my country free. I will trust in my God and in the United States of America.

valve bouncer · Apr 3, 2003

Originally posted by Damn True
Under the articles of the Uniform Code of Military Justice his activity very well could be construed by military law as sedition in time of war. Below are the articles that Funk is in breach of. I doubt he will be charged with all of them, but he certainly could be charged with any of them.

885. ART. 85. DESERTION
(a) Any member of the armed forces who--
(1) without authority goes or remains absent from his unit, organization, or place of duty with intent to remain away therefrom permanently;
(2) quits his unit, organization, or place of duty with intent to avoid hazardous duty or to shirk important service; or
(3) without being regularly separated from one of the armed forces enlists or accepts an appointment in the same or another on of the armed forces without fully disclosing the fact that he has not been regularly separated, or enters any foreign armed service except when authorized by the United States; is guilty of desertion.
(b) Any commissioned officer of the armed forces who, after tender of his resignation and before notice of its acceptance, quits his post or proper duties without leave and with intent to remain away therefrom permanently is guilty of desertion.
(c) Any person found guilty of desertion or attempt to desert shall be punished, if the offense is committed in time of war, by death or such other punishment as a court-martial may direct, but if the desertion or attempt to desert occurs at any other time, by such punishment, other than death, as a court-martial may direct.

866. ART. 86. ABSENCE WITHOUT LEAVE
Any member of the armed forces who, without authority--
(1) fails to go to his appointed place of duty at the time prescribed;
(2) goes from that place; or
(3) absents himself or remains absent from his unit, organization, or place of duty at which he is required to be at the time prescribed; shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.

887. ART. 87. MISSING MOVEMENT
Any person subject to this chapter who through neglect or design misses the movement of a ship, aircraft, or unit with which he is required in the course of duty to move shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.

888. ART. 88. CONTEMPT TOWARD OFFICIALS
Any commissioned officer who uses contemptuous words against the President, the Vice President, Congress, the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of a military department, the Secretary of Transportation, or the Governor or legislature of any State, Territory, Commonwealth, or possession in which he is on duty or present shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.

889. ART. 89 DISRESPECT TOWARD SUPERIOR COMMISSIONED OFFICER
Any person subject to this chapter who behaves with disrespect toward his superior commissioned officer shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.

809. ART. 90. ASSAULTING OR WILLFULLY DISOBEYING SUPERIOR COMMISSIONED OFFICER.
Any person subject to this chapter who--
(1) strikes his superior commissioned officer or draws or lifts up any weapon or offers any violence against him while he is in the execution of his officer; or
(2) willfully disobeys a lawful command of his superior commissioned officer;
shall be punished, if the offense is committed in time of war, by death or such other punishment as a court-martial may direct, and if the offense is committed at any other time, by such punishment, other than death, as a court-martial may direct.

891. ART. 91. INSUBORDINATE CONDUCT TOWARD WARRANT OFFICER, NONCOMMISSIONED OFFICER, OR PETTY OFFICER
Any warrant officer or enlisted member who--
(1) strikes or assaults a warrant officer, noncommissioned officer, or petty officer, while that officer is in the execution of his office;
(2) willfully disobeys the lawful order of a warrant officer, noncommissioned officer, or petty officer; or
(3) treats with contempt or is disrespectful in language or deportment toward a warrant officer, noncommissioned officer, or petty officer while that officer is in the execution of his office;
shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.

892. ART. 92. FAILURE TO OBEY ORDER OR REGULATION
Any person subject to this chapter who--
(1) violates or fails to obey any lawful general order or regulation;
(2) having knowledge of any other lawful order issued by any member of the armed forces, which it is his duty to obey, fails to obey the order; or
(3) is derelict in the performance of his duties;
shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.

894. ART. 94. MUTINY OR SEDITION
(a) Any person subject to this chapter who--
(1) with intent to usurp or override lawful military authority, refuses, in concert with any other person, to obey orders or otherwise do his duty or creates any violence or disturbance is guilty of mutiny;
(2) with intent to cause the overthrow or destruction of lawful civil authority, creates, in concert with any other person, revolt, violence, or disturbance against that authority is guilty of sedition;
(3) fails to do his utmost to prevent and suppress a mutiny or sedition being committed in his presence, or fails to take all reasonable means to inform his superior commissioned officer or commanding officer of a mutiny or sedition which he knows or has reason to believe is taking place, is guilty of a failure to suppress or report a mutiny or sedition.
(b) A person who is found guilty of attempted mutiny, mutiny, sedition, or failure to suppress or report a mutiny or sedition shall be punished by death or such other punishment as a court- martial may direct.

916. ART. 116. RIOT OR BREACH OF PEACE
Any person subject to this chapter who causes or participates in any riot or breach of the peace shall be punished as a court- martial may direct.

917. ART. 117. PROVOKING SPEECHES OR GESTURES
Any person subject to this chapter who uses provoking or reproachful words or gestures towards any other person subject to this chapter shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.

934. ART. 134. GENERAL ARTICLE
Though not specifically mentioned in this chapter, all disorders and neglects to the prejudice of good order and discipline in the armed forces, all conduct of a nature to bring discredit upon the armed forces, and crimes and offenses not capital, of which persons subject to this chapter may be guilty, shall be taken cognizance of by a general, special or summary court-martial, according to the nature and degree of the offense, and shall be punished at the discretion of that court.

As for your commntary on my sense of honor (a concept with which you clearly have little experience, though many in your military proudly uphold alongside our troops in Iraq today) I merely submit the following oath of enlistment and US Military Code of Conduct which should provide all necessary clarification of what is expected of a US military member.

Enlistment Oath

In the Armed Forces EXCEPT the National Guard (Army or Air)

I, ___________________________________, do solemly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed overme, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.

US Military Code of Conduct

I

I am an American, fighting in the forces which guard my country and our way of life. I am prepared to give my life in their defense.

II

I will never surrender of my own free will. If in command, I will never surrender the members of my command while they still have the means to resist.

III

If I am captured I will continue to resist by all means available. I will make every effort to escape and to aid others to escape. I will accept neither parole nor special favors from the enemy.

IV

If I become a prisoner of war, I will keep faith with my fellow prisoners. I will give no information or take part in any action which might be harmful to my comrades. If I am senior, I will take command. If not, I will obey the lawful orders of those appointed over me and will back them up in every way.

V

When questioned, should I become a prisoner of war, I am required to give name, rank, service number, and date of birth. I will evade answering further questions to the utmost of my ability. I will make no oral or written statements disloyal to my country and its allies or harmful to their cause.

VI

I will never forget that I am an American, fighting for freedom, responsible for my actions, and dedicated to the principles which made my country free. I will trust in my God and in the United States of America.

Well reading that I still fail to see how he can be guilty of sedition. Bit of wishful thinking on your part there DT. Keep trying though, I'm sure if you jump up and down cursing his name to the heavens his act might some-how magically become seditious.
Also, don't make the mistake of thinking that concepts such as honour and devotion are the exclusive preserve of the military. They of course come in many forms and while you may think you know all there is to know about me you're really just groping in the dark.
P.S- thought you were above "snide insults". Guess the high moral ground is easy to claim but hard to hold.

Silver · Apr 3, 2003

Yeah, reading that I don't think you could make sedition stick. As far as I can tell, there was no "concert with others" involved in this guys actions.

Silver · Apr 3, 2003

Yeah, but if you go by that reasoning, any member of the armed forces who sees a peace rally (especially if he sees a fellow soldier at it) and doesn't attempt to stop it or inform his commanding officer would be guilty under number 3 of the Mutiny or Sedition paragraph.

Damn True · Apr 3, 2003

Originally posted by Silver
Yeah, but if you go by that reasoning, any member of the armed forces who sees a peace rally (especially if he sees a fellow soldier at it) and doesn't attempt to stop it or inform his commanding officer would be guilty under number 3 of the Mutiny or Sedition paragraph.

That is correct, and there is more than adequete precedent for that.

Remember, military law does not work the same way as civilian law.

the law · Apr 3, 2003

Originally posted by Silver
Yeah, but if you go by that reasoning, any member of the armed forces who sees a peace rally (especially if he sees a fellow soldier at it) and doesn't attempt to stop it or inform his commanding officer would be guilty under number 3 of the Mutiny or Sedition paragraph.

First, maybe (sarcasm dripping) I am not reading this correctly, but paragraph 3 states that if anyone
(3) fails to do his utmost to prevent and suppress a mutiny or sedition being committed in his presence, or fails to take all reasonable means to inform his superior commissioned officer or commanding officer of a mutiny or sedition which he knows or has reason to believe is taking place, is guilty of a failure to suppress or report a mutiny or sedition
In other words, if a soldier is in violation of paragraph 3, he is not guilty of sedition but merely of failure to suppress or report a mutiny or sedition. This is a big difference even if you are subject to similar consequences.

Secondly, a peace rally is hardly considered a mutiny or sedition. There are five elements to a mutiny and another two elements for sedition. They are as follows; In order to be guilty of mutiny, a person must
(1) be subject to this chapter (i.e. subject to the military code, or a soldier)
(2) have intent to usurp or override lawful military authority
(3) (a) refuse to obey orders or otherwise do his duty
(b) creates any violence or disturbance
(4) in concert with any other person
In addition, in order to be guilty of sedition, the person must also have acted
(5) with intent to cause the otherthrow or destruction of lawful civil authority
(6) creates revolt, violence or disturbance against that authority.
(7) in concert with another person

The problem characterizing participation in a peace rally as mutiny is whether it amounts to having intent!! to usurp or override laful military authority. Secondly, participation at a peace rally also probably does not amount to refusal to obey orders or do your duty. It is important to remember that his refusal to show up for duty is a separate act with a separate intent. You would not want to confuse the two acts

Secondly, proving sedition is even more problematic. You need to prove intent to cause the overthrow or destruction of alwful civil authority.

Anyway, I don't feel like writing a treatise, but please read the law before making an unqalified comment.

BurlyShirley · Apr 3, 2003

Originally posted by valve bouncer
I guess the "drama queens" quip really got to you didn't it. Well suck it up princess. I mean I could care less what happened on E-bay (nice non-sequitir btw) and even less about some idiot going awol, I was just commenting on the teeth gnashing and panty twisting of you and the rest of the Sara Bernhardt crowd. Of course that would go way over your head wouldn't it as YOU have proven YOURSELF an imbecile yet again.

Great way to back up your side of the debate genius. I hope we can all look forward to more insightful comments by Valve Bouncer in the future. I know im convinced. :rolleyes:

BurlyShirley · Apr 3, 2003

Originally posted by the law

Secondly, participation at a peace rally also probably does not amount to refusal to obey orders or do your duty.

It does actually. A service member who participates in, or speaks against the orders of the Commander In Chief (George W.) is wilfully disobeying an order.

He could easily be tried.

the law · Apr 3, 2003

of course, you can always try someone. I will also admit that I do not know military law. Also, even when a crime is defined by statute, as it is here, there is always ambiguity. Third, I did not say you could not be tried for participation in a peace rally. I only said, it does not appear from the plain language of the statute that the mutiny and sedition section applied to a peace rally.
Sven

the law · Apr 3, 2003

lastly,
the text of the statute says refuses to obey an order or otherwise do his duty. Here the question becomes whether doing your duty includes not voicing your opinion. After all GW did not order anyone not to voice any opposition (alas that too is open to debate. Criticism can be hard to take

).

the law · Apr 3, 2003

Yeah I know I am too demanding.

Besides i don't take myself to seriously. Why bother, let someone else have a heart attack. Besides, I agree what the guy did was wrong. he does deserve some punishment. You should not be able to join the military and enjoy the salary and then at the first sign of trouble run. But that was not what I was concerned about. I guess i tend to want people to show me their reasoning when they make an argument.

the law · Apr 3, 2003

Originally posted by Serial Midget
It took us a few months to get rid of the last "legal professional" who made unreasonable demands such as yours... in the meantime please refer to my signature quote.

i do like your your signature quote. Why use facts if fiction is readily available.

By the way why was zonic man kicked of the board? I was a newbie at the last moneky upheaval

Silver · Apr 3, 2003

Originally posted by the law

Anyway, I don't feel like writing a treatise, but please read the law before making an unqalified comment.

Whoa whoa whoa there cowboy. I was merely pointing out the consequences of reading Article 94 in a manner which would make Funk guilty of sedition. I don't happen to think he is. IANAL, and I wasn't offering a legal opinion, in case you hadn't noticed. Just throwing a thought out for discussion.

You also spelled unqualified wrong. Forgot the u. Please run your comments past an English professor before making comments.

BurlyShirley · Apr 3, 2003

Originally posted by the law
lastly,
the text of the statute says refuses to obey an order or otherwise do his duty. Here the question becomes whether doing your duty includes not voicing your opinion. After all GW did not order anyone not to voice any opposition (alas that too is open to debate. Criticism can be hard to take ).

Working in Marine Corps public affairs, I have to deal alot with service members who think they can say whatever they want. Its simply not the case. There is a standing order that says you cannot voice opposition to your commanders. He was disobeying a direct order.

the law · Apr 3, 2003

Originally posted by Silver
Whoa whoa whoa there cowboy. I was merely pointing out the consequences of reading Article 94 in a manner which would make Funk guilty of sedition. I don't happen to think he is. IANAL, and I wasn't offering a legal opinion, in case you hadn't noticed. Just throwing a thought out for discussion.

You also spelled unqualified wrong. Forgot the u. Please run your comments past an English professor before making comments.

No worries, besides I was typing this rather hurriedly. I did not mean to be offensive. In any case, you could still be right depending on how you interpret the language of the statute. Admittedly, I was being a bit rash, but ... I guess we all have our own quirks

Silver · Apr 3, 2003

I'm just waiting for someone to point out a spelling mistake I made in that post

BurlyShirley · Apr 3, 2003

Originally posted by Silver
I'm just waiting for someone to point out a spelling mistake I made in that post

Well,

"Just throwing a thought out for discussion." wasn't a complete sentence if that counts.

Silver · Apr 3, 2003

Originally posted by Serial Midget
My spellcheck says you're fine... but I have no idea what IANAL is... perhaps dictionary.com...

I am not a lawyer.

Silver · Apr 3, 2003

Originally posted by BurlySurly
Well,

"Just throwing a thought out for discussion." wasn't a complete sentence if that counts.

Yeah, but to be fair, I was nitpicking on spelling, not grammar. I know better than to nitpick on grammar.

the law · Apr 3, 2003

Originally posted by Silver
Yeah, reading that I don't think you could make sedition stick. As far as I can tell, there was no "concert with others" involved in this guys actions.

Well, after being challenged I set out to find the mistake. It should have said guy's actions instead of guys actions. phew and I thought I was the only one who did not check his posts for grammatical errors.

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