Isn't there an exception when the command violates the law? One could argue that our invasion violates international law, as well as many of our own policies... (then again, one could also argue that armstrong never landed on the moon and the weather is controlled by the Jews, so....)
Suck It Up Princess!
- Thread starter Serial Midget
- Start date
Wait wait wait.
Are you saying the weather isn't controlled by Jews?
US troops are governed by the UCMJ, the relation between international law and the way it translates to average troop is to be determined by the commander...not the troop himself. He can niether make policy, nor publicly disagree with it.
Hitler's henchmen made a similar argument. If I remember correctly it went something like this: "I was only following orders"
Realistically though, it would be a nightmare if every soldier were to interpret individually whether a command violated international law.
I completely knew someone was going to mention that. The main difference is that we've not been defeated, and out troops will not be tried before and international court where this is an issue.
I completely knew someone was going to mention that. The main difference is that we've not been defeated, and out troops will not be tried before and international court where this is an issue.
On another note, I agree with Burly Surly that the victor writes the history.
LOL-you have to be kidding me. I too would hope that the American forces would not massacre unarmed civilians. However, the point is that there is a thin line between the military's unwillingness (admittedly out of necessity) to accept dissent and opposition and the need for individual judgment. This is irrespective of what country's army we talk about.
On another note, I agree with Burly Surly that the victor writes the history.
Oh yeah, that too i guess.
not unless they were told to.
(with the exception of a van full with seven iraqi women and children who didn't yield to the new last-minute traffic ordinances the us installed):devil:
I understand fully why that happened, but how would you interpret that if you were in their family's shoes?
Churchill said "History will be kind to me for I intend to write it."
a) Silver,
I don't carp about spelling mistakes. The later it gets, the more I make. I don't feel like keeping track of what time-zone people are in so as to compare their rate of error against the hour of their posts. Silver my friend, mis-spel away.
b) The law,
All good points however, you made mine for me. Mahalo.
and
and
All of that being said, traditionally in military court they charge a member with every possible related violation they can, regardless of likelyhood of conviction. My point was that he could be charged with violation of the aforementioned UCMJ articles. Wether or not a General Court Marshall was able to convict depends upon more factors than any of us have time to list.
I don't carp about spelling mistakes. The later it gets, the more I make. I don't feel like keeping track of what time-zone people are in so as to compare their rate of error against the hour of their posts. Silver my friend, mis-spel away.
b) The law,
All good points however, you made mine for me. Mahalo.
Ok, so he is awol which is refusing to do his duty and a willfull disobediance of a lawful order.
and
While awol he publicly speaks out against the orders of his commander in chief and those in his chain of command which is insubordination of the highest degree and by doing so publicly could be construed as an effort to influence other military members.
and
Depends on where he was doing his protesting. I don't recall where they said it was, but depending upon the group he was aligned with, if it was one of the more "agressive" anarchist groups that caused the damage in S.F. he could easilly be judged as co-conspirator with those groups which admittedly planed to and then did vandalize and assault police.
All of that being said, traditionally in military court they charge a member with every possible related violation they can, regardless of likelyhood of conviction. My point was that he could be charged with violation of the aforementioned UCMJ articles. Wether or not a General Court Marshall was able to convict depends upon more factors than any of us have time to list.
Nice to see that the military justice system is just as fvcked up as the civilian one in that regard
It has a very discouraging effect. The per-capita number of convictions and resultant imprisonments is far lower in the combined military than in the populace as a whole.
I should bloody well hope so. Doesn' t really surprise me though as I've generally found the American military personnel I've met (I lived next to Kadena airbase on Okinawa for a year and now I'm not far from Iwakuni near Hiroshima) to be a credit both to themselves and their country. Most of them are thoroughly decent and polite young men (with a few notable exceptions mind you) and I've had a number of enjoyable evenings socialising with them.
Don't let me be misunderstood, while I have problems with the military as an institution and with the witless leaders I have no quarrel for the most part with the individual soldiers. After all they are the ones that sometimes pay the ultimate price for the follies of the politicians.
So what does all this mean for the Marine cruising around in his truck with a bumper sticker that says Charlton Heston is My President
Well he was...Originally posted by Spud
So what does all this mean for the Marine cruising around in his truck with a bumper sticker that says Charlton Heston is My President
..of the NRA..
So if the Jarhead was an NRA member during the time Charlton Heston was pres of the NRA then that is pretty much true.
I agree with true, a DA will not generally prosceute unless he believes he can get a conviction. We have a few ex-DA's working for my firm and I was shocked to hear from them that they are expected to win about 90% of their cases. In other words if they don't think it can stick, they won't prosecute. However, they can still throw the book at you and hope something will stick.
True, I like your analysis. However, I had two thoughts. First, I now agree that speaking our may amount to refusal to do his duty. It is a matter of interpretation. Admittedly I don't know enough about the miliray code of justice to be sure either way.
However, I am not persuaded that you can prove the intent requirement. I believe is that you have to look at his attendance at a peace rally as being a separate event from him going AWOL. Intent is generally not transferable from one action to another (except f.e. DUI murder cases). In other words, his intent to usurp or override lawful military authority is the result of him going awol. You have to also show he had the same intent when he attended the peace rally. I am not saying it is impossible to do so, but the prosecutor could easily loose on that point.
He can attend Peace/Political events as long as he does so as a private citizen (not in uniform nor saying he is a member of the US military).
However, the UCMJ has a couple of 'catch-clauses' which can pretty much nail anyone for anything.
I always refered to it as the Uniform Code of Marsupial Justice...
...marsupial as in kangaroo...
...as in kangaroo court...
Originally posted by N8
I always refered to it as the Uniform Code of Marsupial Justice...
...marsupial as in kangaroo...
...as in kangaroo court...
Hmmm Kangaroo. They are delicious, but a bit gamey.
really? .... it was not hard on my end. I had/have glasses, they would not let me fly fighter jets or go on that path... only fly air buses... i did not want to fly sky trucks. i said thanks and left. easy as that....
doesnt this seem more like an example of our social contruct failing?
1- the kid cant read evidentaly to realize his commitment
2- parents did not talk about it and assist in his first mistake of signing up
3- basic did not weed his worm self out? how did he make it thru basic anyway?
4-education system failed when he passed high school, did he sleep through social science? what about english classes that go through literature of war periods?
5-phys ed teacher failed... this boy should be in a skirt
in short, he appears to be a person who, like many of todays youth, have no idea about reality beyond the arcade. come on, who failed? mr 'i aint a smart man' 19 yr old or everyone who should have had a hand in developing the kid into a man?
i am affraid there are more and more of these people with out back bone and people who are taught only to select a, b, c, or d in mulitiple choice life and NOT taught how to analize or thinnk.
unfortunatly i do not know any good solution other then try to get my kid to be able to think on her own and stand up to authority in balance with obeying authority.
you have to know when to say yes sir and when to say no thank you.
what do you all think of that?
who failed?
kid
or all those who socially interacted wtih the kid and did not teach him ****?
1- the kid cant read evidentaly to realize his commitment
2- parents did not talk about it and assist in his first mistake of signing up
3- basic did not weed his worm self out? how did he make it thru basic anyway?
4-education system failed when he passed high school, did he sleep through social science? what about english classes that go through literature of war periods?
5-phys ed teacher failed... this boy should be in a skirt
in short, he appears to be a person who, like many of todays youth, have no idea about reality beyond the arcade. come on, who failed? mr 'i aint a smart man' 19 yr old or everyone who should have had a hand in developing the kid into a man?
i am affraid there are more and more of these people with out back bone and people who are taught only to select a, b, c, or d in mulitiple choice life and NOT taught how to analize or thinnk.
unfortunatly i do not know any good solution other then try to get my kid to be able to think on her own and stand up to authority in balance with obeying authority.
you have to know when to say yes sir and when to say no thank you.
what do you all think of that?
who failed?
kid
or all those who socially interacted wtih the kid and did not teach him ****?
Sounds like one of those "it takes a village..." excuses to me... blame everyone but the kid...
<SNIP>
With his sister carrying his duffel bag and his mother holding his hand,
<SNIP>
the kid is an idiot mammas boy who is not even carrying his load of a duffle...
he admits
<SNIP>
"Ultimately, it's my fault for joining in the first place," said Funk
<SNIP>
so make him clean septic **** for his duration.
but how did such a dumbass mammas boy cant carry his duffel get that far?
it does take a village and when was the last time anybody interacted with their village? how many people even know their neighbors in the building or street?
i dont know what it is going to take to improve these bunch of fat a$$ mcdonalds fed morons that call them selves citizens....
i become more pessimistic every day
Neitchze is right
With his sister carrying his duffel bag and his mother holding his hand,
<SNIP>
the kid is an idiot mammas boy who is not even carrying his load of a duffle...
he admits
<SNIP>
"Ultimately, it's my fault for joining in the first place," said Funk
<SNIP>
so make him clean septic **** for his duration.
but how did such a dumbass mammas boy cant carry his duffel get that far?
it does take a village and when was the last time anybody interacted with their village? how many people even know their neighbors in the building or street?
i dont know what it is going to take to improve these bunch of fat a$$ mcdonalds fed morons that call them selves citizens....
i become more pessimistic every day
Neitchze is right
Originally posted by BarbaRosa
<SNIP>
i dont know what it is going to take to improve these bunch of fat a$$ mcdonalds fed morons that call them selves citizens....
i become more pessimistic every day
Neitchze is right
Don't despair. This country is still populated by men who are strong, brave, and valiant. Men who value honor, integrity, and devotion to duty above all else.
Men like these
...like this guy... doing it for us.
HOOWAH!
How?
Quite simply because it is 100% truth.
What a shame that you view it the way you do. If you had served with men like this you would understand. Sadly it seems that understanding has and will elude you.
Before you go off on some 1/2-cocked rant understand this. There is nothing to which you can compare to what it is to serve humanity and your nation, to commit yourself to the defense of freedom, and the bond that develops between men who have gone into harms way together and come out together. Perhaps fewer in number, but greater in strength.
Shakespeare said that all the world is a stage. He was wrong. This isn't melodrama. It's real-life, real-death, played out by real men.
Quite simply because it is 100% truth.
What a shame that you view it the way you do. If you had served with men like this you would understand. Sadly it seems that understanding has and will elude you.
Before you go off on some 1/2-cocked rant understand this. There is nothing to which you can compare to what it is to serve humanity and your nation, to commit yourself to the defense of freedom, and the bond that develops between men who have gone into harms way together and come out together. Perhaps fewer in number, but greater in strength.
Shakespeare said that all the world is a stage. He was wrong. This isn't melodrama. It's real-life, real-death, played out by real men.
Its funny how ignorant you really are sometimes Ohio.
Dude, that isn't cool.
He just dosen't understand because he has never experienced it.
Ignorant is a bit strong.
Thats exactly what ignorant means......without knowledge toward a particular subject. Its not an insult.
In the context you used it in it certainly wasn't a compliment.
LOL@ Ohio, yeah when I read that my immediate thought was "is this guy from the planet Cornball or what?"
Takes all sorts I guess.
In contrast to Mr. Funk
A few good men:
I know the phrase sounds trite, but it fits.
I was watching the news a few minutes ago. I find myself watching (probably a bit too much) quite a bit because I know so many people who are there right now. But, one of the embedded reporters was talking with some men from the 23 Marines who are in the East of Baghdad. A reserve Marine unit, the only reserve Marine unit in theatre.
He spoke with:
A 21 year old Cal-Poly student from Irvine.
A 23 year old armored truck driver from Oakland.
A 28 year old cop from Beverly Hills. (no kidding)
A 26 year old software engineer from San Jose.
Guys not altogether different from you and I, except for the fact that they were re-called to active duty, have been away from their lives and families for 16 months and today were on a road march through east Baghdad. Their mission today is to walk through town, and draw enemy fire so that they can identify the whereabouts of resistance forces.
Cal-Poly students and software engineers, intentionally drawing enemy fire.................
A few good men:
I know the phrase sounds trite, but it fits.
I was watching the news a few minutes ago. I find myself watching (probably a bit too much) quite a bit because I know so many people who are there right now. But, one of the embedded reporters was talking with some men from the 23 Marines who are in the East of Baghdad. A reserve Marine unit, the only reserve Marine unit in theatre.
He spoke with:
A 21 year old Cal-Poly student from Irvine.
A 23 year old armored truck driver from Oakland.
A 28 year old cop from Beverly Hills. (no kidding)
A 26 year old software engineer from San Jose.
Guys not altogether different from you and I, except for the fact that they were re-called to active duty, have been away from their lives and families for 16 months and today were on a road march through east Baghdad. Their mission today is to walk through town, and draw enemy fire so that they can identify the whereabouts of resistance forces.
Cal-Poly students and software engineers, intentionally drawing enemy fire.................
Originally posted by valve bouncer
LOL@ Ohio, yeah when I read that my immediate thought was "is this guy from the planet Cornball or what?"
Takes all sorts I guess.
Shaking head in dismay at your complete and utter lack of understanding and respect.
It makes me snicker a bit as well and I will always laugh at that little tag line for a variety of reasons. However, there is truth in the things DT said.
As I said in another thread, I always thought of my service as a job even under fire, I can always remember thinking "Of all the things in the world you picked to do........"
However, there was always an overriding sense of mission and loyality. I would have done anything to accomplish the missions I was assigned. When I ordered someone to do something I knew it was going to be done and done right or they were going to die (in some cases literally) trying. Some of it can be attributed to a strong self preservation instinct but most of it can be attributed to things like duty, honor and loyality.
My experience may have been different if I had done something other than what I did. I know of folks that went into other aspects of the Army and didn't find these attitudes.
In my life now that is far from the truth. Even my own sense of commitment is far below the level it was then. And as I am successful at what I do, I guess it doesn't need to be. That is a shame but its the way things are.
Thanks DRB well explained
No lack of respect here DT old boy (except towards you maybe
). No I was just merely passing comment on your penchant for pomposity, ya windbag .Don't worry. My feelings aren't easily hurt.
My comments weren't intended as disrespect for the armed forces or for serving your country. I just found the textbook rhetoric a touch corny/cheesy/melodramatic...
I grew up in a conservative, blue-collar town. Many of my friends are reservist and active duty. A few are in the middle east right now. They chose to serve their country their way, I choose to serve mine another. I would never belittle the service they are providing... but I'd laugh my ass off if any of them repeated your tag-line to me.
This is how I chose to serve: