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Sunday suspension

Discussion in 'Downhill & Freeride' started by demo008, Sep 7, 2005.

  1. demo008

    demo008 Guest

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    I had posted a thread earlier about how people like there sundays. and I got some great responses and thanks alot. But can anyone maybe the same people even tell me how the dw link compares to vpp like on the v ten? If so that would be great, and also i heard that the dw link is like giants maestro suspension, is it true? thanx
     
    #1 -   Sep 7, 2005

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  2. RaID

    RaID Turbo Monkey

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    cant really compare the suspension designs since i havent ridden them

    but if anything the giants maestro is like the dw-link (not the other way around)

    do search there was a comparisson between a vpp and dw-link at some stage if i remeber right
     
    #2 -   Sep 7, 2005
  3. thaflyinfatman

    thaflyinfatman Turbo Monkey

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    Ok, pretty much regurgitating stuff DW and others have said:
    - VPP (in the case of the V10) has a constantly tightening curvature, DW-link has a constantly widening curvature (except possibly at the very end of the travel, but who pedals around at bottom-out anyway?)
    - Maestro has a constantly tightening curvature too, hence it differs greatly from DW-link despite the relatively similar linkage arrangement
    - DW-link takes into account weight transfer under acceleration, whereas VPP (and to the best of my knowledge, Maestro too) do not (publicly at least) recognise these factors.
     
    #3 -   Sep 7, 2005
  4. Vrock

    Vrock Linkage Design Blog

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    Another differences: Giants have a rising rate at the shock and DW have a regresive rate. Right? And DW link use a lower leverage ratio than Maestro too.

    I wish DW Turn on the Website soon, I'll be very helpfull.
     
    #4 -   Sep 7, 2005
  5. thaflyinfatman

    thaflyinfatman Turbo Monkey

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    The Giants have a fairly linear rising rate (it doesn't rise a great deal), the Sundays are (as far as I can tell) somewhat progressive then very slightly falling at the end of the travel (presumably to account for the natural progression of the SPV shocks).
     
    #5 -   Sep 7, 2005
  6. s_c_biker

    s_c_biker Chimp

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    Where's Dw when u need him.. :)
     
    #6 -   Sep 7, 2005
  7. SXtrailrider

    SXtrailrider Turbo Monkey

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    i read something about the man who desingned the rear sus DW and he use to desingn things for the army so if our gov and trust his work i think it will be good enough for a downhill bike pluc it is less oney then a V10
     
    #7 -   Sep 7, 2005
  8. dw

    dw Wiffle Ball ninja

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    The dw-link patents have little to do with axle path curvature change, and much more to do with squat magnitude curves and linkage layouts.

    The dw-link has roughly 100% anti squat at zero travel through its sag point and into the pedaling range, up until the 50% travel point where the dw-link leverage rate progression dictates that spring force at the rear wheel negates any mass transfer due to acceleration.

    vpp has pro squat (forced suspension comporession) at zero travel, and much less than 100% anti squat at the sag point, with the anti squat amount reaching 100% after the 60% travel point in most gear combinations.

    both systems can be used to build nice bikes. Its up to you to ride them and see how you feel about the ride.
    dw
     
    #8 -   Sep 7, 2005
  9. Biscuit

    Biscuit Turbo Monkey

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    I owned an older v-10 and currently ride a Sunday.

    They are both awesome and fast. It's hard to describe the differences, they are two completely different animals.

    The Sunday seems to squat much better in corners and carries speed extremely well. The V-10 was fast as hell on really rough steep stuff.

    Both bikes are great, very stable, pedal well, etc.

    I like the Sunday because it doesn't have that dead feeling when trying to get airborn. It also "seems" to track much better on flat/off-camber corners, but there are soo many variables, it's hard to say for sure.

    The geometry is also spot on perfect for what I want.
     
    #9 -   Sep 7, 2005
  10. Biscuit

    Biscuit Turbo Monkey

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    Oh, the most noticable thing about the Sunday (besides cornering) over pretty much every bike I've ridden is that it tracks very well while breaking.

    You don't necessarily get better traction, but the bike stays low and stable. Very noticable when coming in to a corner with a rough entrance so your forced to brake over rocks.
     
  11. WheelieMan

    WheelieMan Monkey

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    Thanks for the info, I have always wondered how far into the travel the "100% anti-squat" was maintained.
     
  12. dw

    dw Wiffle Ball ninja

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    Every dw-link frame is different based on application. For example, the a DH bike and an XC bike have very differernt requirements so there is some variation, but the main concept and method of execution is the same. You can expect to hear a lot more around Intertrode.

    dw
     
  13. dw

    dw Wiffle Ball ninja

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    That is one huge advantage of the dw-link compared to some of the other suspensions available today. The instant center is projected to a tactical point forward of the BB center that lets me design in a planned braking squat curve. Most other linkage bikes have a much more rearward instant center, and because of this, a lot more squat under braking. We are really concerned about pedaling and braking in the early parts of the suspension travel. Thats where dw-link really outshines the other systems on the trail.

    dw
     
  14. Vrock

    Vrock Linkage Design Blog

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    % of Anti-squat depends of the height of the COG, right? A taller rider will have a higher COG than a normal rider so I think It's impossible to know if a bike it's going to have a 100% of anti-squat or just a 90% or 80%..............

    Anyway DW is very smart bc he said roughly 100%.
     
  15. dw

    dw Wiffle Ball ninja

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    The taller rider will be on a longer bike usually, which will change the squat amount also. It tends to balance out.

    Almost nothing in life or physics is exact. Its an imperfect world.

    dw
     
  16. dante

    dante Unabomber

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    dude i heard that the guy who designed this passed out in his appt one night from drinking too much jager and when he woke up the whole dw-link equation along with various frame designs were written along the wall in crayon he thinks it has something to do with aliens. true story.
     
  17. Biscuit

    Biscuit Turbo Monkey

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    Hmmmm...

    Jager makes you smarter...

    :think:
     
  18. Ian Collins

    Ian Collins Turbo Monkey

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    ahahhahah
     
  19. Banshee Rider

    Banshee Rider Turbo Monkey

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    I'm sort of hazey on my terminology here, could someone explain to me (in the easiest form possible) what "anti squat" is, and why its a bad thing. I'm sure i already know what it is, just have never heard it put into a name.

    I've been waiting for this thread for a while. I've done my fair share of searching for a vpp vs dw link but could never find what i was looking for. Maybe i can keep it on topic and can get some help:

    I'm coming off a pretty "finess" bike at the moment (gemini dh) and am looking for something alittle faster and stable in the high speed nasty, and that will carry speed well thru the rough. (new england terrain). I like the new v10 alot, geometry looks great, bike feels awesome. Heres my question. Is the sunday still quite a "finess" bike like my gemini, or is it comparable to a sled like the v10? Any help from you guys would be appreciated.
     
  20. LukeD

    LukeD Monkey

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    i'm no expert on this but i'm coming from a 222 which is like a gemini. i have a sunday now and absolutly love it. to me it feels less harsh than the 222. it pedals better, corners better and i feel just tracks better especially over small bumps. i've never done more than a parking lot test on a v10 so i can't really compare, but the v10 always came across to me as the type of bike that would be stuck to the ground no matter what, thus going over everything. the sunday can be jumped and finessed quite a bit but when you want it to stick...it sticks. not sure if that made any sense.
     
  21. Red Bull

    Red Bull Turbo Monkey

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    Yah, go for one Sparky. I cant wait to get on one myself...
     
  22. Acadian

    Acadian Born Again Newbie

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    :stupid: I felt the same coming from a Turner DHR. The DHR felt harsh at times and tacoed a few rear rims. With the Sunday I've only tacoed one wheel, but that was my own damn fault.

    that is how my old V10 was - although I've hear the new V10's are more "lively" than the older ones but can't comment since I haven't had any time on the newer V10's. But I know my old one was velcroed to the ground!!
     
  23. Banshee Rider

    Banshee Rider Turbo Monkey

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    The new v10 didnt feel all that "dead", but i could tell it wouldnt come off the ground like my gemini by any means. Basically there were just times at races this season (especially snow) where i found myself wishing i had a "sled" that did velcro to the ground like the v10. But on the next breath i find myself pre-jumping and bunny hopping a ton. If the sunday is the perfect cross in between the two then it'd be perfect. I just dont want to trade a finess bike for another finess bike ya know? Keep the input coming!
     
  24. thaflyinfatman

    thaflyinfatman Turbo Monkey

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    Anti-squat is the resistance the bike has to compression under acceleration due to your weight shifting backwards (usually measured as a percentage I believe). It's not a bad thing, it's necessary to stop the bike from bobbing. Too much of it will make the bike extend under acceleration (which also causes "bobbing").


    One thing that's interested me however, is how fork attitude affects pedalling. Surely when the fork is further into its travel (or just at a lower ride height) then the mechanics of the rear end relative to the tangent line of the contact patch of the wheel (and the resultant effective pivot positions and forces) would change? Because I think it's reasonable to estimate that when a bike's rear suspension is at any distance into its travel, that the front suspension would be in a somewhat similar position (in any pedallable condition anyway, obviously people aren't still pedalling at bottom-out, and probably not when the fork is bottomed and the rear end is for some reason still at 20% travel)?
     
  25. manwithgun

    manwithgun Monkey

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    Well Banshee, I know exactly where you're coming from. I paid $60 to ride my Gem dh at the US Open and came away with a Sunday. You don't need to con yourself into liking a bike that's free. You either fall for it or you sell it... At 5'9 I loved the manuverability of the small Gemini, but in steep tech stuff it seemed like a coin toss as to whether I'd end up on my head. In comes the Sunday. I trail rode it on the side while racing the Gem and was quite impressed with the confidence and stability it had; but unless I was pinned, the bike rode like a wet log. Two Progressive tunes later, still unsatisfied, I stuffed my Gem tuned DHX into that cold fish and wha-la... I could say some things to boost IH sales but I'm not on the payroll :evil: . With an extra inch front and back, the bike is still super playful, very capable of flight, and simply allows me to stay off the brakes with less concern. Me likes. Hope my shpeel was helpful...
     
  26. Banshee Rider

    Banshee Rider Turbo Monkey

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    That was quite helpful, thanks. I've never really had a problem with my gemini in the steep and nasty stuff, i actually kind of enjoy it there. But it does leave alittle to be desired in the high speed rutted out open slope. Getting it up to the speed i want to ride it at isnt the problem, its more of how harsh it feels over the small stuff. Most of the stuff i rode this year had me dealing with more braking bumps then ever, and more rutted open slope, after every run i had myself wondering if the v10/sunday would carry me thru alittle better. The sunday sounds like a hell of a bike.
     
  27. -BB-

    -BB- I broke all the rules, but somehow still became mo

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    LOL... Always the politician...
    We both know your susp is way better than VPP.
    I own one of each, and yours is better hands down.
     
  28. -BB-

    -BB- I broke all the rules, but somehow still became mo

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    Yup...
    I was folowing some friends down a trail at Mammoth (on my v-10).
    The trail had a few little "booters" and everyone else was getting pretty good air off of them. I was going the exact same speed as them and was trying my hardest to "clear" these jumps, but the other guys were going WAY bigger w/ almost no effort.
    Through the rocky sections though I was a bit faster than them.
    Well, not Bobby Root... He could beat me on a friggin XC bike.;)