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Super T questions

46chief

Monkey
Jun 12, 2007
296
0
I have two Super T's. One is a 2004 Pro and the other is a2007 OEM that has air preload and a black and red adjuster on the bottom of the lowers. I am curious if anyone has an opinion on which is a better fork. (I need to put one of them on a bike I'm selling)

I'm leaning toward getting rid of the newer one, it has never felt as good as the 04, but I have spent no time in setting it up.

Also can anyone point me to an illustred parts breakdown for these two forks. The service manuals from Marz and another site I found don't show the fork components.
 

Old_Sckool

Monkey
Jun 5, 2007
187
0
I have two Super T's. One is a 2004 Pro and the other is a2007 OEM that has air preload and a black and red adjuster on the bottom of the lowers. I am curious if anyone has an opinion on which is a better fork. (I need to put one of them on a bike I'm selling)

I'm leaning toward getting rid of the newer one, it has never felt as good as the 04, but I have spent no time in setting it up.

Also can anyone point me to an illustred parts breakdown for these two forks. The service manuals from Marz and another site I found don't show the fork components.
I'd keep the 04. Has a single HSCV cartridge (i.e. shimmed damping). Not sure whats in the 07's but I believe it is just "ported" damping.

The 03's where the last good year for the Super T. They had dual HSCV damping. But most people probably couldn't tell the difference between them and an 04. Main advantage would be still having damping, should one of the cartridges blow.

Sorry, can't help you on the drawings, other then what you've already found. However they are ridiculously easy to work on. The cartridges are sealed and not user serviceable. So you're pretty much limited to entire cartridge changes, seal changes and oil.
 

time-bomb

Monkey
May 2, 2008
957
21
right here -> .
I would say to keep the 2004 model for yourself. It has better internals in it. I don't know why Marzocchi changed them but the older Super Ts where the best. They used to have the HSCV cartridge in both legs. Those were the smoothest Super Ts around. They were the exact same set up as the Shiver in a smaller body turned upside right. The 2004s would be a close second to the 2003 and older Super Ts IMO. The 2007 Super has very entry level internals in it. I guess the Super T's went from being one of their premium forks to an entry level fork over the years replacing the Jr. T's spot in the ranks.

Edit: Ha-ha, that's what I get for getting up from my desk to do something else before finishing this. Old School beat me to the post.
 
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Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
18,852
9,557
AK
You could also drill out the SSVF (pumping rod) cartridge to make it smoother if you notice it spiking in the rough stuff.
 

bikesair

Chimp
Jun 30, 2009
67
0
San Luis Obispo CA
I'm going to do a bit of thread jacking here since it seems like there is a lot of people who know about the old Marzocchi product lines.

I have a pair of 05' Junior T's and didn't realize how simple they were until I tore into them. Dual SSV in an open bath. I only have one spring set installed. I have yet to dial in my oil level but I have just been riding around in the front yard (260cc was way too much in the sprung side).

My question is how does the dual SSV system compare to the newer RCV system found in the 07' Super-T? I am interested in gaining rebound and compression adjustments in my Junior-T's.

I guess to summarize; SSV vs SSVF vs RCV and whether they can be applied to the 05' Junior-T forks.

Thanks in advance for everyone's info.
 

jonKranked

Detective Dookie
Nov 10, 2005
85,562
24,182
media blackout
46chief - from the prospective buyer viewpoint: newer = less likely to be broken or damaged, and easier to find replacement parts
 

time-bomb

Monkey
May 2, 2008
957
21
right here -> .
I'm going to do a bit of thread jacking here since it seems like there is a lot of people who know about the old Marzocchi product lines.

I have a pair of 05' Junior T's and didn't realize how simple they were until I tore into them. Dual SSV in an open bath. I only have one spring set installed. I have yet to dial in my oil level but I have just been riding around in the front yard (260cc was way too much in the sprung side).

My question is how does the dual SSV system compare to the newer RCV system found in the 07' Super-T? I am interested in gaining rebound and compression adjustments in my Junior-T's.

I guess to summarize; SSV vs SSVF vs RCV and whether they can be applied to the 05' Junior-T forks.

Thanks in advance for everyone's info.
bikesair, I have only had experience working with the HSCV cartridge but I have ridden the others before moving to a 888. While you might gain a compression adjustment on the RCV it doesn't necessarily mean it is a better feeling damping unit. If you can get your hands on an HSCV cartridge or two and retro-fit it that would be your best bet since it was really the top end damping system that Marz put out during that time. Of the three you mentioned I would probably go with the RCV. I believe the Super T and Jr T use the exact same chassis so they should retro fit just fine but don't quote me on that. Best to contact Marzocchi directly and ask them. Mike Gold has been there for quite some time and should be able to answer your questions about which systems will fit and exactly how they differ from one another. He works in the tech/warranty department.
 

dante

Unabomber
Feb 13, 2004
8,807
9
looking for classic NE singletrack
The 03's where the last good year for the Super T. They had dual HSCV damping. But most people probably couldn't tell the difference between them and an 04. Main advantage would be still having damping, should one of the cartridges blow.
I could be wrong, but I thought that '04 had one HSCV damper and one "dummy" leg? Marz was great about coming out with awesome product but leaving one little annoying feature about each fork:

2001 - Only 150mm travel
2002 - 170mm travel, dual HSCV but still only 30mm legs
2003 - upgrade to 32mm stanchions and dual HSCV, but MAX 2.6 tire
2004 - wider stance to allow 2.8" tire, but only one HSCV damper
2005 - revise damper to be only ported damping and OE only?
 

time-bomb

Monkey
May 2, 2008
957
21
right here -> .
I could be wrong, but I thought that '04 had one HSCV damper and one "dummy" leg? Marz was great about coming out with awesome product but leaving one little annoying feature about each fork:

2001 - Only 150mm travel
2002 - 170mm travel, dual HSCV but still only 30mm legs
2003 - upgrade to 32mm stanchions and dual HSCV, but MAX 2.6 tire
2004 - wider stance to allow 2.8" tire, but only one HSCV damper
2005 - revise damper to be only ported damping and OE only?
2004 model had one HSCV damper (great) and one SSVF (poor) damper. 2005 they discontinued the Super T for aftermarket sales. Instead of improving over the years, the Super T just seemed to get worse. Too bad, originally it was a great light weight DH fork.
 

bikesair

Chimp
Jun 30, 2009
67
0
San Luis Obispo CA
Reading this has already extended my knowledge 1000%. I called marzocchi and was referred to Mike as well. I had to leave a message but I'm just glad to be talking to some knowledgeable tech's.

The guy even told me I could ship my Junior-T's in to be retrofitted at the factory. Now thats cool.

Would it be smarter to save some more and use the $200 towards a new pair of 888s or 66s instead of having my old forks retrofitted?
 
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Old_Sckool

Monkey
Jun 5, 2007
187
0
2004 model had one HSCV damper (great) and one SSVF (poor) damper. 2005 they discontinued the Super T for aftermarket sales. Instead of improving over the years, the Super T just seemed to get worse. Too bad, originally it was a great light weight DH fork.
Sorry, but that is incorrect. The 04 has a single HSCV cartridge and only a spring and spacers in the other leg.

Marzocchi own spec's state SSVF in one leg. But I've had 2 apart and there is nothing in there but a spring and spacers.

If you actually think about it, it would be pretty stupid to put a SSV (i.e. ported) cartridge along side a HSCV cartridge. Because the fork would still spike since it is limited by the maximum speed that the ported cartridge can move. If you put a ported cartridge along side a shimmed cartridge the fork will simply perform like a ported fork, one leg would be willing to move fast, but they share the same lowers and the ported cartridge wouldn't allow the lowers to move fast enough not matter how much oil the shimmed side flowed.

Hope that made sense.
 
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Old_Sckool

Monkey
Jun 5, 2007
187
0
I could be wrong, but I thought that '04 had one HSCV damper and one "dummy" leg? Marz was great about coming out with awesome product but leaving one little annoying feature about each fork:

2001 - Only 150mm travel
2002 - 170mm travel, dual HSCV but still only 30mm legs
2003 - upgrade to 32mm stanchions and dual HSCV, but MAX 2.6 tire
2004 - wider stance to allow 2.8" tire, but only one HSCV damper
2005 - revise damper to be only ported damping and OE only?
You're correct sir. But I thought that's what I said in my first post, maybe not as concisely. Thanks for clarifying.
 

bikesair

Chimp
Jun 30, 2009
67
0
San Luis Obispo CA
Old_School

When I received the call back from Mike Gold at Marzocchi he said I could install the HSCV cartridge next to my SSV without loss in performance. I do understand what your saying but I think you may have it backwards.

The HSCV cartridge is going to SLOW my rebound down as well as my compression, not speed up. The fork will no longer spike either since the lowers can only rebound as fast as the slowest cartridge (the HSCV). As for compression the HSCV cartridge is going to compress far slower than the SSV (at least during harsh impacts).

I guess I could see the SSV eliminating some responsiveness during small, high-speed bumps since it will not allow the HSCV to operate at its fastest compression/rebound.

I am going to call Mike again tomorrow and clear it up. Besides, it's easy to eliminate my SSV cartridge.
 
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Old_Sckool

Monkey
Jun 5, 2007
187
0
Old_School

When I received the call back from Mike Gold at Marzocchi he said I could install the HSCV cartridge next to my SSV without loss in performance. I do understand what your saying but I think you may have it backwards.

The HSCV cartridge is going to SLOW my rebound down as well as my compression, not speed up. The fork will no longer spike either since the lowers can only rebound as fast as the slowest cartridge (the HSCV). As for compression the HSCV cartridge is going to compress far slower than the SSV (at least during harsh impacts).

I guess I could see the SSV eliminating some responsiveness during small, high-speed bumps since it will not allow the HSCV to operate at its fastest compression/rebound.

I am going to call Mike again tomorrow and clear it up. Besides, it's easy to eliminate my SSV cartridge.
Both dampers control stroke. Your SSVF damper limits your maximum shaft velocity i.e high speed hits. And is much more likely to "spike" then an shimmed cartridge. Think hitting a water bar at 40 mph. This is a high speed impact. A drop, even a large one is really only a low speed impact.

Ported dampers like ssvf can only pass a limited amount of oil, due to the fixed size of the port(s). Note: The floating piston in the SSVF was suppose to improve spiking over the SSV cartridge. But it didn't really work any better then SSV.

Shimmed dampers like the HSCV cartridge "adjust" and can pass increasing amounts of oil based on higher shaft velocity's .

Since the fork legs are sharing common lowers they will be subject to the effects of the cartridge that moves the slowest during high speed impacts. That being your SSVF cartridge.

I guess in theory, one HSCV and SSVF would be and improvement over dual SSVF, since you only have one ported damper. But I don't see how it could be better then either dual HSCV or even just a single HSCV. Only reason I could see for running dual cartridges is if you were really heavy and running high spring rates, thus needing the extra damping control. But the single HSCV cartridge seems to be adequate for the average person.

Your rebound control should be the same in either cartridge. Since neither uses shimmed rebound. We are strictly talking about the compression stroke on these cartridges when comparing SSV (speed sensitive valving floating) to HSCV (high speed compression valving).
 
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time-bomb

Monkey
May 2, 2008
957
21
right here -> .
Would it be smarter to save some more and use the $200 towards a new pair of 888s or 66s instead of having my old forks retrofitted?
Only you can answer that question. Do you want an 8" fork or a 7" fork? If you go with either the 888 or the 66 you will most like spend more money but you will have a more robust fork either way and more current technology (assuming you are buying a more recent one). Then again, cost difference may be negligible if you are buying another fork to get the cartridge you seek (assuming you don't have it already) and then send it in to get it installed. Me personally, if the cost difference isn't much, I would just get a new fork.

Sorry, but that is incorrect. The 04 has a single HSCV cartridge and only a spring and spacers in the other leg.

Marzocchi own spec's state SSVF in one leg. But I've had 2 apart and there is nothing in there but a spring and spacers.

If you actually think about it, it would be pretty stupid to put a SSV (i.e. ported) cartridge along side a HSCV cartridge. Because the fork would still spike since it is limited by the maximum speed that the ported cartridge can move. If you put a ported cartridge along side a shimmed cartridge the fork will simply perform like a ported fork, one leg would be willing to move fast, but they share the same lowers and the ported cartridge wouldn't allow the lowers to move fast enough not matter how much oil the shimmed side flowed.

Hope that made sense.
Makes perfect sense. I was looking at the Marzocchi site to get this info but I will take your word for it since you have actually taken a couple apart and serviced them.

Both dampers control stroke. You SSV damper limits your maximum shaft velocity i.e high speed hits. And is much more likely to "spike" then an shimmed cartridge. Think hitting a water bar at 40 mph. This is a high speed impact. A drop, even a large one is really only a low speed impact.

Ported dampers like ssv can only pass a limited amount of oil, due to the fixed size of the port(s).

Shimmed dampers like the HSCV cartridge "adjust" and can pass increasing amounts of oil based on higher shaft velocity's .

Since the fork legs are sharing common lowers they will be subject to the effects of the cartridge that moves the slowest during high speed impacts. That being your SSV cartridge.

I guess in theory, one HSCV and SSV would be and improvement over dual SSV, since you only have one ported damper. But I don't see how it could be better then either dual HSCV or even just a single HSCV. Only reason I could see for running dual cartridges is if you were really heavy and running high spring rates, thus needing the extra damping control. But the single HSCV cartridge seems to be adequate for the average person.

Your rebound control should be the same in either cartridge. Since neither uses shimmed rebound. We are strictly talking about the compression stroke on these cartridges when comparing SSV (speed sensitive valving) to HSCV (high speed compression valving).
Bikesair - as I mentioned real early on in this thread, if you can get your hands on the HSCV cartridge, that is the way to go. If you get one, or even two, use them and don't worry about the other stuff. Of all the damping systems discussed in this thread, the HSCV will feel better and out perform the others. Oldschool did a great job explaining the differences between the systems and it pretty much justifies the exclusive use of HSCV if you can get it. If you aren't that heavy, run one HSCV in one leg and the air assist you already have in the other leg (although I never really had a need for such a thing when I was running a Super T since I'm not that heavy and there is a spring pre-load adjuster to fine tune the spring rate).
 

Huck Banzai

Turbo Monkey
May 8, 2005
2,523
23
Transitory
Move that HSCV cart into the newer chassis, and swap the banooga damper into the old one.

Most say u you only need the one cart despite there being 2 in the 03 (which I had and loved, friend has it now) so cart in left leg, air assist in right and you're chillin!
 

46chief

Monkey
Jun 12, 2007
296
0
Well I swapped my 03 lowers off my Z1fr to the older one due to it having a better axle system. I called Marz tech and they said the newer one will or will not be compatible, I jast have to see if the lowers slide on. Currently I have a frozen bolt on the newer one so it is staying on the bike until I decide to buy the snap-on extractor set. I also need two cartridges in my world of forks, one for a 170mm 888 and one to upgrade the newer Super T, I also need new set of lowers or a new fork for my trail or park, or to reconfigure my van 36 to 130-140mm. Damn I never would of thought I'd have so many extra parts after getting into the world of full squishy bikes.

Thanks for all the suggestions, there is some good info in here.
 

bikesair

Chimp
Jun 30, 2009
67
0
San Luis Obispo CA
Old_School

I am looking at a exploded view of the 03' Super T's and the left leg has coils with an HSCV dampener and the right has a pumping rod (ssv)...why would marzocchi do that from the factory? I called Marzocchi and they confirmed the 04' model was manufactured the same way. Maybe the Pro model had HSCV in both and the regular had a combo.

It just doesn't make sense to me that Marzocchi would do it knowing that performance would be degraded...

I ordered my HSCV cartridge : )
 

time-bomb

Monkey
May 2, 2008
957
21
right here -> .
Old_School

I am looking at a exploded view of the 03' Super T's and the left leg has coils with an HSCV dampener and the right has a pumping rod (ssv)...why would marzocchi do that from the factory? I called Marzocchi and they confirmed the 04' model was manufactured the same way. Maybe the Pro model had HSCV in both and the regular had a combo.

It just doesn't make sense to me that Marzocchi would do it knowing that performance would be degraded...

I ordered my HSCV cartridge : )
That is interesting. I owned both the 02 Super T (all silver) and the 03 Super T (black lowers) and both were dual HSCV. The only difference between the two models was the 03 got an integrated stem option and the outer casting of the lowers had a "ridge" to add more fore and aft stiffness. Both mine were aftermarket and the 02 was just a Super T (there was no Pro option) and the 03 was Super T Pro (which was the only aftermarket Super T option).
 

Huck Banzai

Turbo Monkey
May 8, 2005
2,523
23
Transitory
That is interesting. I owned both the 02 Super T (all silver) and the 03 Super T (black lowers) and both were dual HSCV. The only difference between the two models was the 03 got an integrated stem option and the outer casting of the lowers had a "ridge" to add more fore and aft stiffness. Both mine were aftermarket and the 02 was just a Super T (there was no Pro option) and the 03 was Super T Pro (which was the only aftermarket Super T option).
Yeah, mine too, HSCV cart def in both legs dual springs in both legs (stacked/staged).

(Re 03 Super T -- was it called a Pro? I thought they had dropped the pro from the name by then.)
 

time-bomb

Monkey
May 2, 2008
957
21
right here -> .
Yeah, mine too, HSCV cart def in both legs dual springs in both legs (stacked/staged).

(Re 03 Super T -- was it called a Pro? I thought they had dropped the pro from the name by then.)
I honestly don't remember if it was called a "Pro". I always called it a Super T. Marzocchi's site has the 02 listed as a Super T and the 03 as a Super T Pro. I was thinking that maybe there is an OEM Super T and the aftermarket is the Pro???:confused:

http://www.marzocchi.com/Template/detailSPAForksMTB.asp?IDFolder=208&LN=UK&Sito=usa-mtb&IDAnno=2147&mCO=Prgho\hduPrgho\hdu#GHVF/#VhulhRuglqh/#weoRjjhwwl1LGRjjhwwr&mCW=DQG#&Prgho\hduPrgho\hdu&#A@#*5334*#DQG#&DP&#@#4#DQG#&Prgho\hdu&#@#547:&mCJ=&IDOggetto=56222

I can say without a shadow of a doubt that I had what is listed on their site so I guess I had a Super T Pro in 2003. FWIW, I liked the 2002 better. They had identical internals but the 02 always felt better for some reason.
 

Old_Sckool

Monkey
Jun 5, 2007
187
0
Old_School

I am looking at a exploded view of the 03' Super T's and the left leg has coils with an HSCV dampener and the right has a pumping rod (ssv)...why would marzocchi do that from the factory? I called Marzocchi and they confirmed the 04' model was manufactured the same way. Maybe the Pro model had HSCV in both and the regular had a combo.

It just doesn't make sense to me that Marzocchi would do it knowing that performance would be degraded...

I ordered my HSCV cartridge : )
Well every 03 Super T that I've seen runs DUAL HSCV. When the 04 came out the spec's stated that the Super T had a single HSCV and one SSVF. This never made sense to me for the exact reason I explained earlier. My guess is, it was either an error in there publication and the 04's never had a SSVF cartridge or they did early on and then eliminated it after they figured out it was a stupid idea..

As I've said, I've had two apart and the right leg has no cartridge. I still have one. I've never rode Super T's myself cause I'm a moose and need a stouter fork. But I used them on both my sons bikes, for several model years. The early ones where great for lighter riders, cause the used 4 springs. Marzocchi combined the spring from shorter travel forks so they wouldn't have to make spring just for the Super T. My kid were SUPER skinny and having 4 springs made it easy to tune the spring rate for them.

I'm not gonna keep beating a dead horse, but think of it this way. Using the 2003 year for an example. The main difference between a Super T and a Junior T were the cartridges.

Super T had dual HSCV. Junior T had Dual SSV. Junior T's sucked cause they spiked on high speed hits. Otherwise they were fine.

I you removed one cartridge from the Junior T, do you think it would still spike? The correct answer is, YES, of course it would. Because it is still a ported damper.

So I ask you. How would only changing one cartridge solve the spiking problem? If the cartridges where operating in series then yes. But they don't, they operate independently of each other but share common lowers.

The HSCV cartridge can try and move as fast as it wants during a high speed hit, but it's gonna be drug down by the SSV valve that's wanting to spike, since the are both tied into the same lowers.

Anyway, I hope that helps you understand. If you wanna keep your SSV cartridge, then by all mean... do it. But I wouldn't.
 

Udi

RM Chief Ornithologist
Mar 14, 2005
4,915
1,200
bikesair -
Old Sckool is spot on, seriously just stop debating it and accept what he says. Everything he has said so far is correct from my experience, and it sounds like the marzocchi staff (that you spoke to at least) and documentation have it wrong. This wouldn't be the first time the consumer knew more about a product than the manufacturer, and it won't be the last.
 

bikesair

Chimp
Jun 30, 2009
67
0
San Luis Obispo CA
First off, thanks Old_Sckool for not being a douche (like Udi) and taking your time to help me out.

After a few rounds of parts ordering I was ready to tear into my forks. It all became a lot more clear after opening em up. Pretty dang simple if you ask me. The lamest part was spending the half hour to make a thin wall 12mm because I refused to spend $25 on their tool. Other than that it was pretty much a drop in replacement.

I disabled the other SSV cartridge by just taking off the valve and rebound spring assembly and then boring the snot out of all the holes.

From what I have gathered here basically Marzocchi is not to be trusted haha. I will try to get this Super-T exploded view up as well since it seems like their aren't any others.
 

Highspeed

Chimp
Feb 26, 2003
20
0
Old_School

I am looking at a exploded view of the 03' Super T's and the left leg has coils with an HSCV dampener and the right has a pumping rod (ssv)...why would marzocchi do that from the factory? I called Marzocchi and they confirmed the 04' model was manufactured the same way. Maybe the Pro model had HSCV in both and the regular had a combo.

It just doesn't make sense to me that Marzocchi would do it knowing that performance would be degraded...

I ordered my HSCV cartridge : )
Hello there, how much did the HSCV cartridge cost? I put my Super T pro from 2003 apart to service and noticed that one of the cartridges felt veerrrrry sluggish when you pull the piston out and in. So i guess i need to order a new one :/
 

1453

Monkey
I can say without a shadow of a doubt that I had what is listed on their site so I guess I had a Super T Pro in 2003. FWIW, I liked the 2002 better. They had identical internals but the 02 always felt better for some reason.
the 02 was also the old 30mm platform, which some people complained of flex issues. The 03 went to the 32mm stancions. I have both the 02 and 03 the 03 is definitely stiffer with the thicker stancions and one piece lower.

Curious thing is though that my 03 Super T pro has dual HSCV, but also 4 springs. Tuning for rides of different weight is real easy with it.