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Supreme Court says Americans have a right to own guns!!!

jimmydean

The Official Meat of Ridemonkey
Sep 10, 2001
41,147
13,316
Portland, OR
If you need a gun for self defense, you're doing it wrong. I will never understand the NEED for a gun. I enjoy guns and may some day purchase one for sport shooting, but if one is needed for self defense, then there are larger issues that a gun won't solve.
 

Secret Squirrel

There is no Justice!
Dec 21, 2004
8,150
1
Up sh*t creek, without a paddle
If you need a gun for self defense, you're doing it wrong. I will never understand the NEED for a gun. I enjoy guns and may some day purchase one for sport shooting, but if one is needed for self defense, then there are larger issues that a gun won't solve.
That's why I'm stealing all the depleted u235 I can from Hanford and stockpiling that sh*t. Guns don't solve anything, but nukes....that'll leave somebody with a really bad sunburn.
 

SPINTECK

Turbo Monkey
Oct 16, 2005
1,370
0
abc
Funny, those cases started around 1920, around when we started the federal reserve. The wealthy ruling class in the house of morgan, rockefellor and rothchilds don't like it when they can't use their pawns to fight wars in order to claim wealth. WHy are they so afraid of free speech?? So you really don't think the founding fathers knew how banking systems corrupt countries and steal their soverignty?? You really believe the founding fathers or anyone with a worldly brain (I do not claim to have one) would advocate giving up ANY FREEDOMS, especially guns??

My point is this is all connected and don't fall for the propoganda. Gun freedoms are freedoms.
 

SPINTECK

Turbo Monkey
Oct 16, 2005
1,370
0
abc
see above
Yeah, yeah, yeah, That's cool. Don't take anything personally anyway. Most of these guys do the advocate thing to fish for stuff or just waste time. The devil can make some good points, but can also accidently reveal a truth that's being hidden.

Great court post by the way. I never knew of those cases, just the "fighting words" free speech case.
 

Samirol

Turbo Monkey
Jun 23, 2008
1,437
0
I just want to make sure you don't think I'm one of those loonies that wants to ban guns :p
 

1453

Monkey
If you need a gun for self defense, you're doing it wrong. I will never understand the NEED for a gun. I enjoy guns and may some day purchase one for sport shooting, but if one is needed for self defense, then there are larger issues that a gun won't solve.
an elderly guy who can no longer karate chop three bricks in a stack or a single woman who lives on her own may disagree with you.
 
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sanjuro

Tube Smuggler
Sep 13, 2004
17,373
0
SF
Well one can only hope when Obama becomes President, Scalia, Thomas, and Kennedy have simultaneous strokes...
 

MikeD

Leader and Demogogue of the Ridemonkey Satinists
Oct 26, 2001
11,679
1,725
chez moi
If you need a gun for self defense, you're doing it wrong. I will never understand the NEED for a gun. I enjoy guns and may some day purchase one for sport shooting, but if one is needed for self defense, then there are larger issues that a gun won't solve.
That's some great rhetoric. Many people who have defended themselves with firearms will take exception to that.

Again, no one needs a gun until he needs a gun. And at that point, all other discussion is pathetically academic.
 

jimmydean

The Official Meat of Ridemonkey
Sep 10, 2001
41,147
13,316
Portland, OR
That's some great rhetoric. Many people who have defended themselves with firearms will take exception to that.

Again, no one needs a gun until he needs a gun. And at that point, all other discussion is pathetically academic.
I don't put myself into situations where I need a gun. The only time I've carried one was in New Orleans, and I was ordered to. Should I ever need a gun, I guess I'm f@cked because I won't have one.

But with that in mind, I'm not going to run out and buy one either.

<edit> I am proficient in open hand and have trained in Filipino stick and knife (Kali). I do carry a knife at times, but my teacher always said the first option is to walk away.
 
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Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,840
1
Orange County, CA
That's some great rhetoric. Many people who have defended themselves with firearms will take exception to that.

Again, no one needs a gun until he needs a gun. And at that point, all other discussion is pathetically academic.
True, but you can't ignore all the people that had a gun, used it, and didn't need to.

The big question is, does group A outnumber group B?
 

MikeD

Leader and Demogogue of the Ridemonkey Satinists
Oct 26, 2001
11,679
1,725
chez moi
I don't put myself into situations where I need a gun. The only time I've carried one was in New Orleans, and I was ordered to. Should I ever need a gun, I guess I'm f@cked because I won't have one.

But with that in mind, I'm not going to run out and buy one either.

<edit> I am proficient in open hand and have trained in Filipino stick and knife (Kali). I do carry a knife at times, but my teacher always said the first option is to walk away.
So if people can simply decide not to be victims of violent crime, why is anyone a victim of violent crime?

And why will someone assume I mean that a gun is somehow a primary way for staying safe?
 

BurlyShirley

Rex Grossman Will Rise Again
Jul 4, 2002
19,180
17
TN
I do carry a knife at times
So basically you agree that it's rational for a person to carry a weapon to defend himself, but if that weapon happens to be a gun instead of a knife, then someone is "doing it wrong?" Are you saying that a gun is too effective a means of self defense then? Self preservation isn't exactly a gentleman's sport. If you agree that situations might arise in which a person may need to defend their life, why automatically handicap yourself by limiting your tools to a knife? If a situation is dangerous enough to require a knife for self defense, it's dangerous enough to require a gun.
 

stevew

resident influencer
Sep 21, 2001
40,575
9,586
Well one can only hope when Obama becomes President, Scalia, Thomas, and Kennedy have simultaneous strokes...
You would have better luck in hoping Britney Spears will sew her cum ditch shut and join a monastery.
 

Samirol

Turbo Monkey
Jun 23, 2008
1,437
0
So basically you agree that it's rational for a person to carry a weapon to defend himself, but if that weapon happens to be a gun instead of a knife, then someone is "doing it wrong?" Are you saying that a gun is too effective a means of self defense then? Self preservation isn't exactly a gentleman's sport. If you agree that situations might arise in which a person may need to defend their life, why automatically handicap yourself by limiting your tools to a knife? If a situation is dangerous enough to require a knife for self defense, it's dangerous enough to require a gun.
I disagree, a knife doesn't have the potential to kill 10 people in 10 seconds like a gun does. The argument isn't about self-defense, it is about how the weapon is used in a non-self-defense situation.

Plus, knives are more controllable, and hitting an innocent 20 feet away is less likely.
 

BurlyShirley

Rex Grossman Will Rise Again
Jul 4, 2002
19,180
17
TN
I disagree, a knife doesn't have the potential to kill 10 people in 10 seconds like a gun does. The argument isn't about self-defense, it is about how the weapon is used in a non-self-defense situation.

Plus, knives are more controllable, and hitting an innocent 20 feet away is less likely.
You can say the argument "isn't about self defense" until you're blue in the face if you want, but that won't change the reality of why most people carry.
 

Samirol

Turbo Monkey
Jun 23, 2008
1,437
0
You can say the argument "isn't about self defense" until you're blue in the face if you want, but that won't change the reality of why most people carry.
It may be why many people carry, but it isn't why they are used in crimes.
 

MikeD

Leader and Demogogue of the Ridemonkey Satinists
Oct 26, 2001
11,679
1,725
chez moi
I'm sorry, I thought we were talking about the rights of citizens.
 

ohio

The Fresno Kid
Nov 26, 2001
6,649
24
SF, CA
In this day and age, according to the Constitution, there is no need for a right to bear arms as long as there is a well-regulated militia.

Now, not what I believe should be made into policy, but what I believe the Constitution strictly allows.
Wait, so you're saying that the judges made an "activist" decision, rather than a "constructionist" one? But that's impossible; they're conservatives.
 

Samirol

Turbo Monkey
Jun 23, 2008
1,437
0
Wait, so you're saying that the judges made an "activist" decision, rather than a "constructionist" one? But that's impossible; they're conservatives.
The court system has used the Constitution to say what it wants it to say since Marbury vs Madison. They haven't cared too much about what the Constitution allows and says for a long time, but all "activist" rulings aren't bad, mind you.
 

ohio

The Fresno Kid
Nov 26, 2001
6,649
24
SF, CA
OK, before this thread gets douched any further (and because it's not just nate doing the douching)...

Samirol has been using you all to make a point that the founding father's intent is a useless measure for present interpretation of laws and therefore (my point) strict constructionism is basically a myth at this stage whether the rulings are left or right leaning (or, gasp, non-partisan decisions). They are all "activist" judges (and the contradictions that result in the postings in this thread are rampant).

The fact that this ruling was WRT to the second amendment is just a useful foil to point out that activism can be in either direction. If you all weren't so damn sensitive, you would have noted Samirol said on pg 2 that he thought people should maintain the right to bear arms (despite it not matching strict constructionist interpretation), and I actually believe the same.

Try some talcum powder. It'll stop those panties from bunching.
 

Samirol

Turbo Monkey
Jun 23, 2008
1,437
0
Samirol has been using you all to make a point that the founding fathers intent is a useless measure for present interpretation of laws and therefore (my point) strict constructionism is basically a myth at this stage whether the rulings are left or right leaning (or, gasp, non-partisan decisions). They are all "activist" judges.
.
it works better when someone doesn't just go right out and say it
 

MikeD

Leader and Demogogue of the Ridemonkey Satinists
Oct 26, 2001
11,679
1,725
chez moi
OK, before this thread gets douched any further (and because it's not just nate doing the douching)...

Samirol has been using you all to make a point that the founding father's intent is a useless measure for present interpretation of laws and therefore (my point) strict constructionism is basically a myth at this stage whether the rulings are left or right leaning (or, gasp, non-partisan decisions). They are all "activist" judges (and the contradictions that result in the postings in this thread are rampant).

The fact that this ruling was WRT to the second amendment is just a useful foil to point out that activism can be in either direction. If you all weren't so damn sensitive, you would have noted Samirol said on pg 2 that he thought people should maintain the right to bear arms (despite it not matching strict constructionist interpretation), and I actually believe the same.

Try some talcum powder. It'll stop those panties from bunching.
If strict constructionism worked, we wouldn't need SCOTUS. The context in which our Constitution was written and the history of its interpretation, however, deserve due consideration in present implementation.

"-ion" words make you sound smart, and they rhyme!


PS--here's the big secret--the 14th amendment doesn't guarantee that federally enumerated rights must be respected by state governments unless the rights have been specifically "incorporated" to the states. The 2A is NOT one of these, so states (unlike the federal district) have recourse to do what they want until such time as the right is incorporated--could happen in the upcoming legal wrangle, however. It makes me laugh that "state's rights!" will work AGAINST gun rights; lotta rednecks are gonna be PISSED.

All of this hoo-ha is just pacifying the masses and the far right. I see in no way how owning a handgun equates to the citizenry having control/sway over the gov't. If you want to accomplish this, then the people should have the right to own heavy machine guns, missiles, tanks, fighter jets, etc. These sorta weapons can keep the gov't in check, handguns can't even keep your average mall security at bay.

-ska todd
There are a few Iraqis who would be to differ as to feasibility of waging an insurgency with small arms. (And there are a lot of nutters who argue that private citizens SHOULD be able to own any weapon they desire; not my personal opinion, however.)

Not only that, but there's an inherent right to self-defense that's being left out of the discussion here...Heller re-asserts this right.
 
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Samirol

Turbo Monkey
Jun 23, 2008
1,437
0
If strict constructionism worked, we wouldn't need SCOTUS. The context in which our Constitution was written and the history of its interpretation, however, deserve due consideration in present implementation.
I think that is the point he was making, that strict constructionism isn't real, and the Supreme Court does whatever the hell it wants.
 

dante

Unabomber
Feb 13, 2004
8,807
9
looking for classic NE singletrack
There are a few Iraqis who would be to differ as to feasibility of waging an insurgency with small arms. (And there are a lot of nutters who argue that private citizens SHOULD be able to own any weapon they desire; not my personal opinion, however.)
last I checked fully automatic AK-47s, RPGs, morters, and massive ordinances made from discarded artillery shells were still illegal... :clue:
 

ohio

The Fresno Kid
Nov 26, 2001
6,649
24
SF, CA
Not only that, but there's an inherent right to self-defense that's being left out of the discussion here...Heller re-asserts this right.
Exactly, which is something that is not specifically in the 2nd amendment (except in as much as it's "self" defense FROM TYRANNY, but that isn't really self defense, it's group defense), but to me is almost the only logical argument for private gun ownership in our present society and one with which I agree with given that we can't turn back the clock 150 years and somehow prevent such a proliferation of guns. However, because of all this focus on founding fathers we spend an inordinate amount of time trying to (irrelevently) interpret what a militia is today.
 

jimmydean

The Official Meat of Ridemonkey
Sep 10, 2001
41,147
13,316
Portland, OR
So basically you agree that it's rational for a person to carry a weapon to defend himself, but if that weapon happens to be a gun instead of a knife, then someone is "doing it wrong?" Are you saying that a gun is too effective a means of self defense then? Self preservation isn't exactly a gentleman's sport. If you agree that situations might arise in which a person may need to defend their life, why automatically handicap yourself by limiting your tools to a knife? If a situation is dangerous enough to require a knife for self defense, it's dangerous enough to require a gun.
I carry a knife because there are times a knife comes in handy, not for self defense. You are taking it WAY over the top. I understand your point about self defense, but my point is still if I fear for my life to the point I NEED to own a gun, then I would simply look to make a change in my life.

I agree with the right to own a gun, I would just rather not.
 

MikeD

Leader and Demogogue of the Ridemonkey Satinists
Oct 26, 2001
11,679
1,725
chez moi
I think that is the point he was making, that strict constructionism isn't real
Well, gee, yeah, that's why I was agreeing with him.


and the Supreme Court does whatever the hell it wants.
That's flat-out wrong...you can't write 150-something page decisions about your reasoning, based on principle and precedent, if you're just "doing whatever the hell you want."
 

MikeD

Leader and Demogogue of the Ridemonkey Satinists
Oct 26, 2001
11,679
1,725
chez moi
I carry a knife because there are times a knife comes in handy, not for self defense. You are taking it WAY over the top. I understand your point about self defense, but my point is still if I fear for my life to the point I NEED to own a gun, then I would simply look to make a change in my life.
No, he's not. You brought it up, and one doesn't need to fear for one's life in order to own a gun...that's absurd. Recognizing a potentiality is quite different from "fearing" it.


I agree with the right to own a gun, I would just rather not.
That's entirely reasonable, and I don't think you should have to. Who has said you should? But the argument is about whether others CAN.

I HATE the gun culture that calls non-gun owners "sheep" or even [shudder] "sheeple," and endlessly mastrubates while talking (mostly on the Internet) about how they live in "condition hyper-orange zulu" or whatever Cooper's color of the day is. But none of that has anything to do with what rights Americans have to own a gun.
 

MikeD

Leader and Demogogue of the Ridemonkey Satinists
Oct 26, 2001
11,679
1,725
chez moi
Exactly, which is something that is not specifically in the 2nd amendment (except in as much as it's "self" defense FROM TYRANNY, but that isn't really self defense, it's group defense), but to me is almost the only logical argument for private gun ownership in our present society and one with which I agree with given that we can't turn back the clock 150 years and somehow prevent such a proliferation of guns. However, because of all this focus on founding fathers we spend an inordinate amount of time trying to (irrelevently) interpret what a militia is today.
It's implicit in the operative clause concerning the bearing of arms.

I used to share your opinion--I started a thread on it a long time ago--but in reading the previous court of appeals decision on Heller, I changed my mind. Legally, there is a rock-solid basis for a right to self-defense both within the 2A and in the larger context of natural rights of man.
 

MikeD

Leader and Demogogue of the Ridemonkey Satinists
Oct 26, 2001
11,679
1,725
chez moi
No way. I look jewier than that guy.

Plus, I wear Monster Pups or Fives 2.0 when I'm not sporting the aviators.