[norbar]

lol

Nah, You couldn't be moar wrong about the variety of tracks, terrain and slow tech we have available to ride in Scotland.. by area Scotland is only around the same size as some of your states so I'd guess if an American were living in Scotland, EVERYTHING here would seem local

Also, You do realise other than a small woods section Fort William DH track is almost entirely manmade with materials brought in and not even typical of the terrain on the hill it was built on

I should maybe have said earlier but I have no idea what a " Local Pro Race" is.. here we have the World Cup, UK Nationals, Nationals (ie Scottish/Welsh/English) and then regional races.. All races are run on the same track in various Categories, with an Elite Cat at each race .. Not all Elite riders are Pros..Most are WC Qualifyingly fast on a good day tho.

No.. I have never felt Neko Mually's bike and can't see me ever wanting to but simply looking at his weight I'd be astonished if his fork were any stiffer than mine.. or does he have custom HULK springs wound for him..
In use unless I severely **** up, I never actually get moar than 7" travel from mine.. (Personal preference, I just hate how long forks feel so run the stiffest spring available)

Not sure about FT. William but after riding in Maribor, Leo and Schlad I'm pretty sure for parts of that track anyone would benefit from a stiffer suspension setup. Though as you point with Ft. William there may be less of a difference between locals and pros in those places just for the reason I mentioned above.


btw. Didn't we talk about the same thing like 3 months ago? No one remembers that PB article where their guy rode Brendog's bike?

 

[demonprec]

i have been running my suspension stiffer and have picked up speed thru sections because of it .i,m not racing DH anymore but on some of the Enduro races i do locally we run sections of some of the local DH course and my trail bike with stiffer suspension is faster then my park style bike .

i have noticed watching race coverage alot of racers run really stiff suspension , you can see it in the footage , they are hitting huge jumps and ripping thru sections and they barely use 3/4 of the travel .

in my day we set up the bikes in a fashion that when you picked up the bike and dropped it it did not bounce due too the sag . if i was too guess my sag is around 15 to 20% range and the bike feels amazing , takes the hits and tracks straight .

 

[StabprimoMonkee]

Most of people here seem to think that pro riders are running stiffer springs. That is not the case. Pros are running sag levels in the standard ranges, nothing to see here.

What they are running more of is compression, due to two reasons. First they are riding at higher speeds, thus higher energies being absorbed by the dampers, thus to achieve chassis stability you have to run moar compression.

The second reason is that stiffer bike is more efficient, thus it carries moar speed. The caveat here is that rider fitness is the limiting factor. Bike can always be made faster than one can handle. A fast rider does not care about small bump performance. A fast rider cares about chassis stability, so when you hammer into a berm, a bombhole or down a steep rock garden, the bike should not buckle you when you hit the ground with large force.

 

[SCARY]

lol

Nah, You couldn't be moar wrong about the variety of tracks, terrain and slow tech we have available to ride in Scotland.. by area Scotland is only around the same size as some of your states so I'd guess if an American were living in Scotland, EVERYTHING here would seem local

Also, You do realise other than a small woods section Fort William DH track is almost entirely manmade with materials brought in and not even typical of the terrain on the hill it was built on

I should maybe have said earlier but I have no idea what a " Local Pro Race" is.. here we have the World Cup, UK Nationals, Nationals (ie Scottish/Welsh/English) and then regional races.. All races are run on the same track in various Categories, with an Elite Cat at each race .. Not all Elite riders are Pros..Most are WC Qualifyingly fast on a good day tho.

No.. I have never felt Neko Mually's bike and can't see me ever wanting to but simply looking at his weight I'd be astonished if his fork were any stiffer than mine.. or does he have custom HULK springs wound for him..
In use unless I severely **** up, I never actually get moar than 7" travel from mine.. (Personal preference, I just hate how long forks feel so run the stiffest spring available)

Sorry Gary, I totally read that with a Braveheart /William Wallace voice.I invite everyone to do so.Its pretty epic sounding

 

[Samoto]

Sorry Gary, I totally read that with a Braveheart /William Wallace voice.I invite everyone to do so.Its pretty epic sounding

In reality.. Behind computer

 

[Gary]

ha ha...

 

[Jm_]

This thread is so enduro.

 

[SCARY]

Most of my threads end up turning very enduro...not 27.5 enduro, but enduro still.

 

[demo 9]

ha ha...

One of the differences here is that we run alot of races. Minimum one per weekend from may 1 to nov 1

ONE of our regional series is running 36 races this year. A local race is an average track taped and timed. The good tracks like windham are never open and saved for important races. This is where the set up differs from what i call average. I normally run a 6.6 spring all year. But bump it up for the windham wc and pkatty grt. I didnt but i wish i did for port angeles


Windham World Cup 2012 - Mick Hannah Chest Cam on Vimeo
National/wc level race

Gravity East Series #2 at Mountain Creek Bike Park. on Vimeo
Local race

 

[SCARY]

One of the differences here is that we run alot of races. Minimum one per weekend from may 1 to nov 1

ONE of our regional series is running 36 races this year. A local race is an average track taped and timed. The good tracks like windham are never open and saved for important races. This is where the set up differs from what i call average. I normally run a 6.6 spring all year. But bump it up for the windham wc and pkatty grt. I didnt but i wish i did for port angeles


Windham World Cup 2012 - Mick Hannah Chest Cam on Vimeo
National/wc level race

Gravity East Series #2 at Mountain Creek Bike Park. on Vimeo
Local race

So,you don't think you could run the stiffer setup full time and it be a benefit ?

 

[demo 9]

So,you don't think you could run the stiffer setup full time and it be a benefit ?

Ive considered it. Tried it too. In the end i didnt like it. It felt too stiff and sort of rode like crap on the average stuff. I also found myself loosing more traction. I wouldnt run stiffer on the big tracks if it wasnt neccessary. When i do bump it up the traction does get worse but the fact that it stays afloat and doesnt bottom co stantly makes up for it. Dont get me wrong a soft setup on a world cup track is possible and im sure some people do it. Maybe even gary-but for me and most of my fellow pro buddies we all had to bump up. I happen to like the ride height better when its stiffer but the lack of traction rules it out for me.

On a semi related note. Windham got a new jump today

 

[buckoW]

Brendan usually runs around 18%-20% sag with loads of compression and uses all of his travel all of the time.

 

[norbar]

Brendan usually runs around 18%-20% sag with loads of compression and uses all of his travel all of the time.

Back and front?

Ben you ride some tracks that are heavy on the susp. Did you try experimenting with less sag?

 

[saruti]

the faster you go, the stiffer you want your suspension to be. (I'm not Sam Hill fast, so the pros probably run even stiffer)
especially up front.
the lat 3 years I've got my fork from 50PSI to 65 PSI.
at the rear I was running 300# and now I fell great on a 350#.
still the suspension uses all its travel.

 

[SlackBoy]

Tell that to Marshy and see what he says.... (Syndicate/Minnaars mechanic)

Confirmed, they defo fiddle with spoke tension too

 

[Gary]

Cheers for the explanation Demo.. our DH scene isn't really big enough to run races every weekend at the same venue

Ft William is our only WC track and it's often only raced on 3 times a year.. that's entirely down to Nevis Range management.. I'm sure it'd be used moar if they'd allow it.. I won't get into the politics of why they don't here.
Fort William, contrary to worldwide belief is actually a piss easy track to ride.. it's only a challenge to ride it at race pace due to it's length and roughness.. We have far more technically challenging tracks and these are used right down to small locally organised racing.. instead of an easier track for smaller events we generally just put in chicken lines round the most challenging sections
Pretty much All UK tracks are raced dependent on by agreement (£s) between owners of the land they're on and the individual race organiser.. We traditionally have loads of different Race organisers from small friendly local guys right through to huge national/WC level..each series/race is run by different organisers who don't necessarily see the bigger picture and co-operate with each others plans.. (yet another story I won't get into here).. There are however loads of races throughout the year and regional race series dates don't clash with Nationals and Nationals don't clash with WCs so most weekends from April to September you'll find a race to attend if you're prepared to travel.. we have a few winter races/series too but as we depend on road transport for uplift it can be a bit of a gamble for organisers in the colder months.

 

[SCARY]

Confirmed, they defo fiddle with spoke tension too

I don't know what that really means.i have enve wheels and they spec a sh1t ton of tension. So, there is alot to play with with those specific wheels.From what I understood, Nico's where very loose.I don't know the specifics, but wiggly wheels give me the heebie jeebies.

 

[nojoke]

I have experimented with both. Live in Alaska, and our resort here just don't have the flow or raw speed that a serious venue has, lots of roots, rocks, and smaller features, you spend most of your time on the ground. Tried running the bike stiffer, but just not as good vs a tad softer.

However, when I travel down to Whistler I have to run everything significantly stiffer on the high speed side which is usually 1-1.5 turns on the CCDB, I have to stiffen up the fork as well.

 

[demo 9]

http://www.vitalmtb.com/photos/features/We-Rode-The-FOX-Pros-Bikes,7837/Slideshow,0/bturman,109

 

[bdamschen]

Back and front?

Ben you ride some tracks that are heavy on the susp. Did you try experimenting with less sag?

Dunno about the rest of the industry but fox recommends running between 15-20% sag on their 40 air with 20% sag considered the "plush" setting source

 

[norbar]

Dunno about the rest of the industry but fox recommends running between 15-20% sag on their 40 air with 20% sag considered the "plush" setting source

That's interesting. Craig at avy suggested I go under 20% but when I get to close to 15% flat turns and flatter berms are a problem in terms of keeping traction in them if there is anything uneven on the trail

 

[mtdh]

The biggest difference a stiffer setup will provide is quicker suspension/steering response and more feed back to rider. Everything responds quicker and weight shift will be smaller and precise but less forgiving. The flip side is you will have less tractions with stiffer setup in many situations but not all. There are just trade offs as with any setup but in general a stiffer setup will be quicker for someone who has the skill to take advantage of this. Setting up a stiff suspension is far more difficult (not forgiving) which means front to rear balance and damping needs to be close to perfect. I am not sure anyone wants a stiff setup as doing 1-3 runs verses 15-20 run at the bike park a day is going to beat you up. You can still run the same sag with stiffer or lighter sprung setup to some degree so not sure how anyone is determining this as factor (there is a swing of about 2 rate increments above and below form what I calculated to keep within ideal sag settings.

 

[norbar]

That may be true or it may be placebo but I have to say I also find it easier to mess up susp settings when I run my susp stiffer. I'm 72kg and people <80kg say I run my susp stiff but that means my rebound settings are aften a bit from what I want which doesn't always transate to good jumping characteristic.

 

[DMdh]

That may be true or it may be placebo but I have to say I also find it easier to mess up susp settings when I run my susp stiffer. I'm 72kg and people <80kg say I run my susp stiff but that means my rebound settings are aften a bit from what I want which doesn't always transate to good jumping characteristic.

I think that too. It seems that there is a fine line between firm and harsh. Lately I´ve been messing around with settings, lowering the air pressure and puting a lot more compression. I dont know wich I prefer, depends on the tipe of track.

 

[SCARY]

The biggest thing I've noticed and I usually run mine pretty firm compared to people I ride with, is that i can't ride it slower than a 85-90% race pace. I have to be focused , feeling good and have to push the bike or I ride like crap. Same with my dirt bike, first practice sucks and I hate myself, then by the second time out it feels awesome.
By the 4-5 th practice or 7-8 th dh run I'm going to crash or I've managed to escape narrowly unscathed, trying to figure out why I can't beat kids that could be my offspring.

 

[saruti]

maybe someone already wroth this, but if not,
you have to run higher air pressure in your tires. otherwise , the rims will get all the hits.

 

[ocelot]

Personally, I try to run my tire pressure as low as possible without banging my rims or rolling a tire in corners. I find that low pressures definitely helps with small trail chatter. I absolutely cannot ride anything more than 5 psi above my usual value. My suspension is set up fairly stiff so I compensate a bit with low tire pressure.

 

[kickstand]

Personally, I try to run my tire pressure as low as possible without banging my rims or rolling a tire in corners. I find that low pressures definitely helps with small trail chatter. I absolutely cannot ride anything more than 5 psi above my usual value. My suspension is set up fairly stiff so I compensate a bit with low tire pressure.

I might not be fast, I might not even be slow, but I know one thing, I agree, I run fairly low tire pressure so I get good traction. And I don't turn hard enough to worry about blowing tires off the rims of feeling the sidewalls roll over, maybe some day.

 

[marshalolson]

a lot more going on to tire traction than just air pressure. a lot of people run lower pressure when they would benefit from different tires, longer wheelbases, or different shock settings.

is see 2 general trends to setup:

1. relatively higher spring rates, relatively open (i.e. unrestricted oil flow) compression, relatively high tire pressure
2. relatively lower spring rate, fairly closed compression, relatively low tire pressure


the greater the force of a rider (velocity, pitch of trail, rider mass, amount of rider input into bike) = heavier shim stack. this has nothing to do with how open the oil valve is (i.e. low speed compression) is, or how much pre-load is on the backing spring (i.e. high speed compression).

 

[mtg]

Dunno about the rest of the industry but fox recommends running between 15-20% sag on their 40 air with 20% sag considered the "plush" setting source

My experience agrees with that ^^ for setting the fork spring rate. And, in the link, they say to measure it by getting on the bike in riding position, naturally weighting the pedals and handlebars, which is the same method I use.

I think when people use higher sag numbers for the front, it seems to coincide with putting more weight over the front when measuring.

 

[Kanye West]

the greater the force of a rider (velocity, pitch of trail, rider mass, amount of rider input into bike) = heavier shim stack. this has nothing to do with how open the oil valve is (i.e. low speed compression) is, or how much pre-load is on the backing spring (i.e. high speed compression).

What??

 

[descente]

i think what he means is that people often confuse running lots of compression with maxxing out the dials and not just running heavier base valving.

 

[marshalolson]

sorry typed in haste.

low speed adjuster controls the port size, and thus the amount of oil flow hitting a shim stack. it does not make the shim stack "firmer", but it reduces the oil volume getting to the shim stack, while increasing the pressure (partially blocking off a hose with your thumb). So while you are making harder for oil to flow and the suspension to move, you are actually hitting the shim stack with more oil velocity and making it easier for it to bend.

high speed adjuster adds preload to the backer spring, and thus controls when/where the high speed valve kicks in, but it does not add "high speed compression", in the same way adding preload to your rear shock reduces sag and adds useable travel, but does not make the spring "stiffer" (hooke's law).

my point is that
1. some folks think "firmer" shocks mean a ton more spring rate.
2. some folks think that "firmer" suspension means closing the low speed port and adding more preload to the high speed spring.

getting the correct base tune that correlates to rider size, speed, track pitch, etc is really what is going on with "super stiff wc suspension", with only slight bumps in spring rate to account for increased rates of speed.

i also think that unless you are confident in the accuracy of the base tune and lo speed settings, playing with tire pressure for traction is a bit counter productive.

edit- thanks descente, exactly.

 

[Jm_]

So 3 moar shimz?

 

[saruti]

when I say firmer suspension , I mean less SAG.
and if you run lower air pressure in your tires for traction, you need to work on the way you ride....
traction will be better with better body movement on the bike.

 

[Mo(n)arch]

Sooo, what air pressure is considered as "low"?
I am running a hair less then 2bar in front and about 2,2-2,4bar in the rear.

Also, coming of a weekend of bad weather riding (sic! ) I have the following question:
We're hitting a fairly steep natural trail at the moment, which has a lot of ruts, roots (lots of it) and breaking bumps in it.
As you can imagine the trail is a whole different animal in the wet.
What do you do to compensate this with your setup?

Edit:
Oh and thank you for bringing up this thread.
These threads are the reason, why I am on this board.

 

[kickstand]

if you run lower air pressure in your tires for traction, you need to work on the way you ride....
traction will be better with better body movement on the bike..

yes....and ...... no.

 

[saruti]

Monarch.
I run 32 - 35 PSI in the rear
25- 28 in the front.

I think its like what you run ~ . (32 = 2.2 bar I think)
and it also answer the Q about what to run when the trail is slippery and lots of roots. (the lower = 32 \ 25)

 

[ocelot]

Monarch.
I run 32 - 35 PSI in the rear
25- 28 in the front.

I think its like what you run ~ . (32 = 2.2 bar I think)
and it also answer the Q about what to run when the trail is slippery and lots of roots. (the lower = 32 \ 25)

So you do low tire pressure! I think there's something wrong with the way you ride
I run about 25 psi on the front too. My tire is a 2.5 Maxxis Minion DHF 3c. Anything lower will cause my rim to take hits too often too hard. My upper limit for the rear is 28 psi.

 

[kickstand]

Monarch.
I run 32 - 35 PSI in the rear
25- 28 in the front.

I think its like what you run ~ . (32 = 2.2 bar I think)
and it also answer the Q about what to run when the trail is slippery and lots of roots. (the lower = 32 \ 25)

Oh, you run that low of pressure? You need to change the way you ride.....

Or....what do you weigh? what type of terrain are you riding in? What tires are you running? Tubed? Tubeless? Rim width? tire width?

Too many variables to just simply say that someone lowering their tire pressure for more traction needs to change the way they ride.