[BurlyShirley]

Old auto town, current ghost town?

What makes them different from mining towns all over the country?

Well, overall population would be the main thing. If GM, ford, others all left michigan for lower wages elsewhere, well, you'd have a state of damn near refugees. Maybe that was acceptable 100 years ago, but in this day and age, I think we're a little better than that.

 

[Silver]

I dont think its as "obvious" as you make it out to be. The union basically holds all the cards. They dont get the contract they want, they dont work...company loses. They do get what they want...company loses. Maybe if the unions werent trying to extort the automakers for every possible dime, things could be a little better. Communism at work!

Or Ford could move factories...but they didn't, so now they are stuck.

Of course, they also make crap products. That's another thing that doesn't help too much. You've seen the marvelous Ford Fusion lately? Every time I get into a rental car that is a Ford/GM/Chrysler product I can't wait to get back to my Element.

Like I said, I have a theory that the Japanese way of dealing with workers is probably better...but I haven't looked at in in depth with respect to the auto industry. What I do know is that every place I've worked that was a dick about coffee breaks and such (like down to the second...) the workers were dicks right back. I also read somewhere (no, I don't remember where, and I'm not looking it up) that Ford/GM hire MBAs as factory managers, where the Japanese car companies put engineers in that role. If that is true, there is your explanation right there. With the possible exception of a shortbus full of people with Down's syndrome, there is nothing dumber than a group of MBAs in the same room.

We actually agree here somewhat...I'm just giving you a hard time.

 

[Reactor]

I just saw this, Ford's still better than the federal government which posted losses in the hundreds of billions.

 

[Slugman]

I wonder how much affect the non-automotive unions have on the industry?

If the teamsters have the contract for shipping parts/ cars around then that's another source.

Plus the longshoremen that receive parts/cars from overseas probably play a role. Buddy of mine who was a merchant marine for a while then went into shipping said that every shipment would have a certain percentage of 'loss' associated with transport. 99% of that loss was to the longshoremen...

 

[blue]

Communism at work!

That's not communism, it's milking the system, tallywhacker.

The Japanese know how to work with people. It's rather simple, and it's been stated in this thread already...You wouldn't have unions if you didn't treat your employees like horse **** and pay them the bare minimum.

 

[Silver]

I wonder how much affect the non-automotive unions have on the industry?

If the teamsters have the contract for shipping parts/ cars around then that's another source.

Plus the longshoremen that receive parts/cars from overseas probably play a role. Buddy of mine who was a merchant marine for a while then went into shipping said that every shipment would have a certain percentage of 'loss' associated with transport. 99% of that loss was to the longshoremen...

None for the purposes of this discussion. Honda and Toyota parts go through the same ports as anything GM or Ford imports...

 

[BurlyShirley]

You wouldn't have unions if you didn't treat your employees like horse **** and pay them the bare minimum.

Lol! Yeah right...

 

[MMike]

Bell helicopter here is not a union shop.

And Boeing (under alan mulally's direction...sort of) busted the wichita union by basically selling off the whole damned operation. Hells yeah!

 

[Inclag]

They're in states that arent union, like TN. Saturn, Nissan, others have all moved to near Nashville because the unions are either non existant or very weak.

The other thing is that these companies operate much better facilities and provide better benefits to their workers as well (people actually want to work for them).

Unions had their time and place and in some cases still do, but the fact is that the american auto manufacturers have done this to themselves. The current pension plans that retired workers get, the movement in the 70's to start producing different vehicles based on the same platform to increase profits, the inability to create different brand images (you could argue that Daimler Chrysler has done a decent job at this however), SUV's, the inability to break free (however I'm not sure if it is now possible) of the current unions, etc, etc, etc...

 

[rockwool]

So why can't Ford do the same thing?

I still don't understand how unions are full of stupid ass assembly line workers, but at the same time they manage to fleece the management and shareholders of Ford and GM and Chrysler...

That is explained by the well known phrase "united we stand, devided we fall".

I dont think its as "obvious" as you make it out to be. The union basically holds all the cards. They dont get the contract they want, they dont work...company loses. They do get what they want...company loses. Maybe if the unions werent trying to extort the automakers for every possible dime, things could be a little better. Communism at work!

I can't say to much about your unions but ours, or rather our major ones, are just display and a lot of hot air. They wave their red flags on Mayday and they say they stand on the side of those they represent, but in reality when they negotiate salaries or other conflicts, they most often run over their kind and strike deals that are on the line of the employers, or at least closer to the "other side" than their own.

All this is of course being done behind closed doors and the ones they represent aren't alowed to join. This should be compared to anarcho-syndicalistic union that I am a member of. No deals are struck behind your back and they dare take you out on a strike, not just claim they "fight" for you but don't put up the least of a fight when time comes to do it.

I'd be amazed if the same thing doesn't happen within your major unions as well. Of course this isn't the view of the general working public as they in most cases not aware of my union and buy the propaganda of the only unions they know of.

The ruling class have always been fighting the unions but is a mysterious way of acting,or logical, depends on how cynical you view their actions, if you look at them they are the most well organized people in our society, both as individuals but more importantly in collective interest groups.

"they don't want us to unite, they just want us to keep on fussing and fighting" -Bob Marley

With the possible exception of a shortbus full of people with Down's syndrome, there is nothing dumber than a group of MBAs in the same room.

What are MBA's?

Unions had their time and place and in some cases still do, but the fact is that the american auto manufacturers have done this to themselves. The current pension plans that retired workers get, the movement in the 70's to start producing different vehicles based on the same platform to increase profits, the inability to create different brand images (you could argue that Daimler Chrysler has done a decent job at this however), SUV's, the inability to break free (however I'm not sure if it is now possible) of the current unions, etc, etc, etc...

I actualy read an article today about the Mercedes W123 280TE that was produced between 1976 (estate 1978) to 1985. It was probably the last or next to last (W126) Merc that was built with developmental money pured into it with almost no thought of profit in mind (slight exaggeration), which I think shows pretty good at how things were done before but then indefinate greed became the prime goal. Here's a nice quote:

"The build quality of the thing was, of course, fabulously good, particularly in the light of Mercedes' current plight in this department, when te firms focus was as much on making great cars as it was on profit margins.

It was one of the last Mercedes to be built to this kind of uncompromizing standard and many owners parted with their 280TEs years later only very reluctantly. Many refused to drive almost anything else. People just got very attached to them."

Needless to say I like this car a lot :biggrin: and will probably buy one when I find a nice example of a 300TDT, or a type I diesel Rabbit... haven't decided.

Here's a pic: