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Sweet Black Diamond (WA) Trails!

Y'all:

Hopefully I can catch the flak on this issue, because I'm intentionally putting myself in the way.

If you don't ride down near Black Diamond, across from the Lake Sawyer trails, you can probably ignore this.

If you DO ride there, on the other side of WA SR 169, on the Real Life Church's property, please read on....

If you're ridden there, you know there are signs on the trails saying you're welcome to use the existing trails, but please don't build new ones. You can't miss these signs: they're about 4 feet tall! We all know there are trails there that long ago started as bootleg trails, and over the years they've gotten some pretty steady use. Nobody's got a problem with that.

This weekend some church members were out doing some work near the highway, and a few ventured up the trails. What they found freaked them out, and that's putting it mildly. The found 3 or 4 long downhill runs with jumps, stunts, ramps, in some awesome lines down the hillside. Obviously a whole bunch of DH'ers put a LOT of time and energy into this system. They stumbled upon one very sweet set of rides, constructed in what appears to have been the last couple months.

Unfortunately, as landowners required by law to keep the forest undamaged, and required by law to keep the stream runoff clean, what they saw was about 40 young trees cut down, large pits dug, a significant quantity of beer cans and other trash, unsafe and unstable structures, spikes driven into trees, and what they estimated as about 5 acres of forest floor stripped bare. All that damage on a hillside that's known for landslides and erosion, and with a seasonal wetland at the foot of the hill. Yeah, one of those seasonal wetlands that's covered by some shiny new federal legislation.

You might say they reacted "strongly". Or maybe forcefully. Or, if you built the trails, you might even say "violently". 'Cause they tore the stunts down. They knocked down the ramps. They put logs in the berms. Yeah, they were pretty unhappy over the whole thing. Oh...and they picked up the trash.

The church pastor, elders and project manager that I met with tonight were all very clear that their strong hope is that they can continue to allow recreational use on the land. But, they have a lot to lose if things go south from a liability lawsuit and forest-management perspective. And MTBers do too. If we can't get this situation under control pronto, at some point they might have to close the area to ALL recreational use, and nobody wants that. Can you say "Paradise Valley?" I want you all to be really well aware of this: the church is open to finding a way where they can safely and sustainably supporting DH MTB use on their property. Don't blow this opportunity by just putting the things back up, or building elsewhere on the property. That will definitely NOT help the cause.

So, here's why I'm really writing tonight: if you've been involved in that area, if you helped build the stunts or used that area, can you please contact me? No, we're not turning people in to the cops or God or Batman or anyone else. Likewise, if you've been involved in working out these kinds of disagreements at places like Saint Edwards, Tolt Macdonald, or Philip Arnold parks, please contact me also.

So, please contact me. Off list preferably: thom@tctrandolph.com, my cell is 425-761-5259. And if all you want to do is flame me for being involved with such heinous trail-damaging meanies, that's cool, fire away. I'm only trying to stand in the middle and find a reasonable compromise.

Thank you for reading this!

Thom Randolph
thom@tctrandolph.com
 

Skookum

bikey's is cool
Jul 26, 2002
10,189
0
in a bear cave
Sounds like Lake Sawyer is headed down the same path of Victor Falls.

There is alot that "could" happen right at Black Diamond, making it the South End mountain bike Mecca. Of which i have talked about on here before.

But with so many out of control bootleggers (this includes XC builders) it can also be like Bonney Lake, a place that used to be cool to ride, but now nothing exists....

Anyone who's anyone who's built mountain bike trails have made bootleg trail. Time's are changing, and i hope more people realize the only way to get something done that will last more than a few years is to be on the up and up/legit.

Before mountain bikers didn't have that opportunity. Now we are slowly getting there....
 
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Skookum

bikey's is cool
Jul 26, 2002
10,189
0
in a bear cave
landowners required by law to keep the forest undamaged, and required by law to keep the stream runoff clean, what they saw was about 40 young trees cut down, large pits dug, a significant quantity of beer cans and other trash, unsafe and unstable structures, spikes driven into trees, and what they estimated as about 5 acres of forest floor stripped bare. All that damage on a hillside that's known for landslides and erosion, and with a seasonal wetland at the foot of the hill. Yeah, one of those seasonal wetlands that's covered by some shiny new federal legislation.
Y'know i just want to add, that it's really sad to be so focused at Colonnade. Always begging people to help out there. If the people that build out there helped out at Colonnade there are people that can teach how to build right, resources to use.

This along with the debacle at Henry's Ridge, it really bums me out, considering i could really see the potential the area has. There are other areas nearby that the county was thinking about turning into mountain bike park.

Man if things stay the same Black Diamond may be a mountain bike ghost town? Put an old rusty mountain bike on top of the coal carts.

People who care about that area had best step up now, because the potential is still there to be had....
 
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jumping_jesus

Monkey
Jan 23, 2006
244
0
in your mind
some of the people do build at the colonnade though and they do use their skills for good and they are great advocates for mtn biking but they weren't the only ones doing work out there. there was two other groups working on stuff too. and i refuse to belive that they would cut down trees for their work and that they would leave their trash around and if they did then:rant::rant::disgust::plthumbsdown::wtf::homer: i just wanted to use the homer face. Also as i understand it some else started it and then bailed on the project and someone else stumbled upon it and figured maybe we will just add to the fun and maybe that first somebody who started building their and then abandon ship cut down the trees and stuff (you know who you are by the way:disgust:) first. anyways its a sad thing and they might not of known that it was private property otherwise i dont think they would have continued to build where some one else started. the bottom line being though alot more people are being more and more open about the use of their land and sometimes all it takes is just asking them you might be surprised to their reaction all though i will admit some of my favorite trails to ride arent the most legit but thats just the way it is and some of my favorite trails to ride are legit too.
 
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Regarding Sawyer going away, we shouldn't get too worried. The Black Diamond agreement is pretty clear that 50% of the land in the area HAS to stay open space, forested, and allow for passive recreation. The people of Black Diamond, including developers, are well aware that MTB has a long history there, and we likely won't see it going away any time soon. Indeed, the church very specifically said they want to see mountain biking continue on that land.

Skookum, you quoted part of my text that has to do with them "being required by law" to do a bunch of things. The church's acquisition of those 99 acres was part of a fairly complicated deal. Their original deal had them taking 320 acres, with rights to put camp, trails, etc., on all of it. Instead, they gave the 219 acres into the Black Diamond Agreement, which said that additional land had to be left as forested openspace. This was part of a huge deal, and in total, we've been able to secure nearly 5000 acres now, with another 5000 acres in the next few years. Those 10000+ acres will STAY as open space, STAY undeveloped, and STAY with recreational access permanently.

The other aspect is that on those 99 acres, they agreed to develop something like 10 acres for the church and parking lots and roads. That ain't a whole lot. The rest is to stay forested. But, "forested" means that no more than 5% of the underlying land is disturbed. If part of the land has more than 5% cleared of underbrush and/or trees, it counts toward their developed portion. What that means is that their parking lot is smaller, or they close trails.

The regulations say that the impact-area of traditional singletrack trails is calculated as being 6-foot wide. When you have something that's 1/4 mile long at 60 feet wide, that's worth five MILES of trails out there! The thing is, the church signed an agreement that lets them develop based on them being good stewards of the land. They believe bikers are a GOOD use of the land, but it freaks them out when they see that kind of "use". Its just too much for the hillside to bear in the winter rains, its too much for the wetland to handle the runoff and erosion, and it completely changes how much singletrack can be allow on the land within the bounds of the agreements they signed up for. They're definitely between a rock and a hard place here, and the DH trails worry them greatly.

I definitely appreciate the loss at Bonney Lake (Victor Falls), and there's not anything that would please me more than for that to have never gone away. But, it did. I'm of the mind that I'd rather work to keep what we have, enjoy it now, and find a way to work with everyone: local/city/state government, developers, landowners, MTBers, horse riders, runners, everyone, and try to find ways where we can compromise so we all get something.

Anyway, thanks for your comments. Still looking to make contact with the builders. Not to get all uppity or anything, just to talk and find out what their desires are, and how we can ALL get what we want. And that means INCLUDING downhill run(s) on the land. But, it needs to be done with a little bit of talking before the buidling.
 

DesuL

Monkey
Nov 21, 2005
290
0
This post has some good info in it. The 6ft wide rule makes sense.

I lack the knowledge of who the builders are (not that I would admit it anyways) but if what your saying is true about really wanting to work with people this could be a great thing. I know the ODS has had very good experiences working with land owners and working out some of the liability issues that come up with this kind of sport.

Black Diamond does have a large concentration of DH/FR trails and it makes it look alot wider then it is. When you go to other trails like Port Angeles or Gailbraith they do not have a "park area" like SST and what is happening at Black Diamond. They may have some of the same stunts but they are spread out through longer single tracks.

Again the reports of trash and mess are sad but I don't think it can all be blamed on riders. Hope to hear more on this and hope there is resolution. If I were a builder i would love to come talk to the church and find out what can be done within the rules to improve on things and still have fun.
 
Thanks for your input, DesuL.

I tend to agree with you regarding the trash, as I know the land was long-ago used by miners, who tended to bury trash and bottles everywhere. I was not there when they found the trails and tore down the structures. I was brought in after the fact, in hopes of opening a dialog. So I don't even know just how much trash they cleaned out: a single grocery bag full, or a dumpster-full. I suspect it's somewhere between those two extremes.

In any event, I have several good posts and e-mails with some leads and people to talk with, so hopefully I can get in touch with them. Stop the cycle, start the talking! Or, as some bumper stickers say: "Less Woof, More Wag".
 
Sep 8, 2004
394
0
I think a better solution is to build more trails, less churches. There are already far more churches than trails out there.

Also, as far as building at collonade goes, not everybody lives in or near seattle, and its not a viable option.
 
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Jun 6, 2008
20
0
auburn,wa
so having rode black diamond and working at bd bikes. those trails are cool just not really the direction i want to go but tits tight to session up and the 30 footer is crazy. if you got a xc bike bd is for you.
 
Yeah, if I had the $$$ to buy 320 acres of forested hills, or even 100, I'd put a church on it too...a Church of NeverEnding Singletrack Bliss, with a Cathedral to Sick Air. But in this case, I'm pretty glad they want us on the land, and want to work with us to make it stay that way. And they seem like genuinely good folk.
 

BBTCJON

Chimp
Jun 7, 2005
61
0
I can vouch for Thom as a long standing member of the MTB community and a BBTC supporter for at least the past 5 years now. Thom has contacted us (BBTC) as well and this is a brilliant opportunity for some legit trails.

To those who may be involved out there: if you're nervous about making contact with the land managers I'd be more than happy to assist as a liaison on your behalf to get the ball rolling. It's not everyday that we are presented with an opportunity like this and we'd be foolish not to pursue it.

As for the future of trails out at Black Diamond, there is great potential. As Thom mentioned, the city has an agreement with all developers out there for a 4 to 1 set aside. What this means is that for every acre developed, four have to be set aside as open space (which does allow passive recreation - King County defines mountain biking as passive recreation). Henry’s Ridge is a good example of this.

The County is currently working through some code revisions to allow building to continue out t Henry’s Ridge and as Skookum mentioned, there is a possible opportunity in the near future for a mountain bike park in the area. Though some of Black Diamonds trails are slated for development at some point, I don’t think folks have to worry about a lack of trails out there… this isn’t going to be like Victor Falls.
 
Sep 8, 2004
394
0
I think you're right. This is a great opportunity for xc mountain bikers.

I don't condone a lot of the things that have happened at BD, especially the cutting of trees and littering. I rode there for over a year. Recently more and more people have been pouring in, and more and more trash has been left out there.

After hearing that they've destroyed the trails out there, its kinda hard to believe that they want to help the biking community.

But then, maybe I'm just a little disgruntled about the distruction of the only close trails I have access to.

I guess driving 50 miles each way, will be far less detrimental to the environment, than erosion.
 

trailhacker

Turbo Monkey
Jan 6, 2003
1,233
0
In the hills around Seattle
I think a better solution is to build more trails, less churches. There are already far more churches than trails out there.

Also, as far as building at collonade goes, not everybody lives in or near seattle, and its not a viable option.
I think I would rather have a church that is willing to share the property with recreationists than a developer that is going to build more houses (that I can't afford), condos and strip malls. As long as they aren't requiring us to praise Jesus to ride the trails this can only be a good thing.

The way I interpreted the mention of Collonade is that if people were to pitch in with a project like that they would learn how to build sustainalbe trails, instead of butchering the landscape and pissing off the land owners/managers.
I don't think anyone has said DH trails aren't sustainable; just that they are being built in an unsustainable way.

I think you're right. This is a great opportunity for xc mountain bikers.

I don't condone a lot of the things that have happened at BD, especially the cutting of trees and littering. I rode there for over a year. Recently more and more people have been pouring in, and more and more trash has been left out there.

After hearing that they've destroyed the trails out there, its kinda hard to believe that they want to help the biking community.

But then, maybe I'm just a little disgruntled about the distruction of the only close trails I have access to.

I guess driving 50 miles each way, will be far less detrimental to the environment, than erosion.
 

Skookum

bikey's is cool
Jul 26, 2002
10,189
0
in a bear cave
Short history we get kicked off of trails, we make places to ride. We lose places to ride, we build with carefree abandon. We are entering a time now though where we can get places to build legitimately, but we as a entire user group need to adapt. Things were the way they were not because it's cool to bootleg, but because there was no other option. Times are changing.

Some of the BD builders, have built at collonade.
Yes and i know a couple who have helped me out tremendously on the particular trail i'm working on.

That's not the point i was trying to make.

i think the primary point should be that there is opportunity at Black Diamond. My post has a lot of doom and gloom, but it's based on a precedent on what's happened in the past. Thom as illustrated in his post has pointed out that this will probably not happen, and has described further the awesome potential we have not only for XC, but for DH/Freeride in the area, as Jon has mentioned.

My hope is that we can stop trying to cut our own throat by stepping off the bootleg trail building, and help support the efforts of advocates and trail builders working on the volunteer level.

i've been around long enough to see the area change, the free-for-all that's been going down. And while it's created opportunities to ride up to this point. It's going to get to a point where it will kill projects. That's the point i'm ultimately trying to make is there HAS to be a shift in how we as mountain bikers approach trails, and this is just one example that should illuminate the need for a shift in gears.
 

Borneo

Turbo Monkey
Mar 22, 2004
1,011
0
Duvall
It's kind of ironic that we have this thread right next to the, "Help me build bootleg trails in Easton" thread...
 

Skookum

bikey's is cool
Jul 26, 2002
10,189
0
in a bear cave
It's kind of ironic that we have this thread right next to the, "Help me build bootleg trails in Easton" thread...
Yah uhh while related it's still defocusing off of an area where there is tangible real opportunity for parks. Black Diamond is not close to Easton, home of the mountain burger.
 

T.Rex

Monkey
Sep 6, 2004
134
0
Pacific Northwest
I remember when the landowners were able to start surveying the east side BD trails. As I recall, Thom and some of the members of the Friends of Rock Creek were working with the owners to help with the project. I was a little skeptical when they told me the Church was supportive of allowing us continued access to the trails, but after meeting and speaking with them, I was a believer-in their good will and support for mountain bikers. As I recall, they only asked one thing and that was not to build any new trails or structures on their property; what they were asking seemed perfectly reasonable to me; after all, it was their property.

There is absolutely nothing ok with violating the request of the land owners not to build new trails or structures; especially when you step back and see they've actually welcomed us by allowing access to the east side trails.

The theme that stands out (to me) in this picture, says there are a hand full of people who want what they want, regardless of the outcome. Fortunately, the greater majority of mountain bikers and trail users are smarter and more considerate; I want, what I want, and screw everyone else, will come back to bite all of us.

The east side BD trails are some of my favorite, I hope I can keep riding there. the above reflects the ramblings of a demented turtle :huh:
 

brakecheck

Chimp
Nov 28, 2006
53
0
olympia,wa
that really sucks for all conerned in this topic...(including the church) look at blackrock oregon, they seem to have it worked out. more people should take it upon themselves to be more involved with everyones cooperation(such as imba & other local groups) aren't we suppose to flow with it and not just case it?-brakecheck:monkeydance:
 

bockner

Monkey
Jun 21, 2005
380
0
bellevue, wa
I would bet that it was more all the **** left laying around than the trails, I know I would be pissed if land I owned was covered in beer cans, although once the woodwork goes up so do the odds of it being blown down.

I think DBX6Rider put it best once when he said "if you carry all that **** in when it is full (cans and bottles) why the F*&K can't you carry it out empty?" Great question my friend....
 
Jul 24, 2008
30
0
Enumclaw
Where does the church property end? I would like to know whether a proper enviromental study has been completed on the impact of the planned development.
Does anyone have the contact info for the group that built Henrys Ridge?
 

fuzzycatnuts

Monkey
Dec 14, 2005
946
0
I dont think people really knew what the deal was with the land. I have been there a bunch of times and assumed the builders had some kind of dont ask dont tell understanding, like how SST is.

Sadly I think some of the beer cans stuck in the landings came from the SOME of people that worked them, I could never understand why someone would leave trash around thier own work, I doubt the trash amounted to more than a small garbage bag, still not cool though. Also the cutting of live trees was stupid, any good trail builder knows better, at least hide the evidence.

It sucks that the freeride stunts and trails got torn down, but is sounds like we have a great opportunity to possible go back and rebuild them in a sustainable legal manner.
 
Jul 24, 2008
30
0
Enumclaw
I would like to say that all the beer cans were properly interned in the jumps, along with other assorted TRASH (mattresses tires etc...)that losers left out there. Anything left out in the open was left by interlopers who were looking for a good time but no work.
I hope thatt a sustainable network will be built and maintained but I think self regulation is out of the question. As far as drainage goes either ignorance or piety is speaking about the dangers of erosion or runoff.
 

dbirds2

Chimp
Sep 15, 2007
60
0
well its been a long time for me at this website. It looks like another awesome freeride area has been demolished. I dont waste my time riding in surrounding Seattle area spots, Im to busy riding stellar freeride trails in Canada. I got seek of the b.s and all the talk about legit areas like collanade and duthie, These are great places for begginers, but not for people that like to go big and fast. You can not build big at these so called legit places, that is why people build their own version of big and gnar and usually it gets torn down and the cycle starts over, so dont waste your time in Seattle and Drive up north to the greatest freeride scene CANADA oh! dont forget oregon. Cheers
 

dbirds2

Chimp
Sep 15, 2007
60
0
Oh! I forgot to give my props to Port Angeles and Beacon, but last time I checked that wasnt really considered seattle....................
 

fuzzycatnuts

Monkey
Dec 14, 2005
946
0
Ya, gas is cheap and getting cheaper, driving for 3 hours every weekend is a great idea! Waste of time to try and find any good riding around here....

I know Colonnade is not exactly what you, or me wants, but you have to start somewhere. I went to a few work parties at colonnade and ended up building the advanced jump line with 15 to 25 foot table tops, I dont think beginners are cleaning that line 1st try. I know, I know, they are not gaps, but they gave me a bobcat to build them with, and the best part is that line will be around for many years to come! Duthie hill will be bigger and better, and after that maybe we get a real mountian to build on.
 

dbirds2

Chimp
Sep 15, 2007
60
0
Bro! Last time I checked there is no 15-25ft tables at collanade, I could be wrong. I talked to some of the people who are going to build some of the duthie lines and they are very limited on how big they can build. My point is places like these are fun for a bit, then get very boring. Riding underneath a freeway is not mountain biking!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!and I do not want to wait until I am a old man before there is anything descent and legal in the
seattle area, so until then I will continue to get friends and drive up north where the riding,people and politics make sense. Later Mates!
 

fuzzycatnuts

Monkey
Dec 14, 2005
946
0

Guy, my point is you have to start small and work with the city and prove we know what were doing, once these places are finished we can go to King County or surrounding areas and hopefully get a REAL mountain to build sick trails on, like the shore. The more people who get involved and go to work parties and board meeting the faster this procsess will be, then we wont have to wait tell were old or drive 3-4 hours. People up in Canada are still fighting hard for the rights to have trails. http://www.nsmb.com/page/s/2553/bright-future-on-cypress
 

dbirds2

Chimp
Sep 15, 2007
60
0
you make a good point, but Ive helped and tried and nothing got done. So instead of fighting I moved out of Seattle, closer to places like Beacon, Silver Star,silvermountain and leavenworth. In fact I was getting ready to go shuttle Ribbed trail in leavenworth today, made some phone calls and found out that the ahole forest service just tore the whole thing down. Another epic true mountain ride down. Some kid got hurt on this trail a few months ago, he was inexperienced and trying to go off a 10 ft drop on a hard tail. I wish people who's skill levels are not good would stay in the skills parks until they progress. Trails get torn down when people start getting hurt and medi-vaced of the mountain. I was on the trail that day when the kid got hurt and the cop said there was 3 people in 1 month that got carried out on stretchers. He said they would be tearing down the trail, I tried making some points with him and he told me that this was going to happen no matter what. My point there is riders that need to stay in skills park areas to build skills and there is riders that need big mountain riding to stay interested in the sport. Hopefully things will change, but I doubt it. Cheers and thanx for lobbying for our rights.
 

Skookum

bikey's is cool
Jul 26, 2002
10,189
0
in a bear cave
People complained about Snoqualmie lift access trails calling it Snocrummy. Wasn't hard core enough, same kind of post. Now people are begging for lift access at Stevens.

Deja vu am i alone in seeing this kind of attitude by a vocal minority? If you give up on trying, well that's on you. Some days i really honestly say i can't blame you. But don't bag out on people trying to build something from the ground up or doing things the right way.

The truth is that nobody thought Colonnade would be what it is now. You have no idea how much work had to be done to get it how it is currently. In the middle of summer it's hard enough to get volunteers, but we can't get Dbirds2 stamp of approval because his ego tells him the trails are too beginner level for him to be affiliated.

When i say help support mountain biking it means you have choices. Choices like give donations, give time to dig. lead rides, but it also means don't bag out on people and places that are moving in the right direction. That's part of supporting, just because you're impatient and want to move to Canada, because you give up. Doesn't mean you have to plant your flag of protest, and stab it in the back of mountain bikers that are still trying the only way where you can see real progress. Even if it is slow, because we are not your enemy, don't $hit on us like we are....

Moving on to another tangent i want to rant about.

Lake Sawyer was originally a bunch of trails made and used by various groups. Now there is free-for-all. Trails that are not legit are not owned or controlled by anyone. Isn't it a drag that the original builders don't have any say how a trail winds up? It just morphs into whatever. Sometimes that's fine, but the problem you can see is when it's not fine and evolves into minor or major problems.

Hey, i'm not trying to bag out on what people do, i enjoy Lake Sawyer (when i used to ride). But let's not lie to ourselves what's going on, and try to bury problems. i for one think it suck that a trail builder can't maintain his/her original vision for a trail if they did all the work, but hey when you don't build legit that's what you have to expect to happen, right? You think you know a trail, ride there a year later, and there are so many braids you don't know where to go...

i could blather on but i'll spare any readers that are still on board. But i will say this. Just yesterday a volunteer confided to me that he was worried that Colonnade was going to be a White Elephant. First i had to ask what the hell a White Elephant was, which he explained was a project that was doomed, because nobody was going to show up, support, and/or ride. Luckily for us all, it's not a failure, everytime i work out there i see tons of riders of all ages and abilities. We pulled it off, and have made more people happy than otherwise. i then told him, that i never doubted we could make a fun park and it would be a success. My fear was always that if anything was going to kill the project it was going to be mountain bikers ourselves. We are always going to be our own worst enemy. Yah that's pretty passe, but whether you are far away or intimately close to the process you gotta try to recognize the truth in that. If we support each other and help each other "try" to do the right thing, we will be so much better off in getting what we want.

Won't we? Or have i been wasting my time.
 

dbirds2

Chimp
Sep 15, 2007
60
0
hey skookum! Chill out, I am not crapping on anyone, I am just saying for alot of people we need bigger and faster and that is why certain trails get built that way. No need to be calling me ego. I'm only pissed because the trails with bigger lines are getting torn down and there is so few in the area. If anything, looks like you always have best answer for anything that comes up on these forums. You dont speak for all riders. So dont get offended when someone calls certain bike parks in Seattle beginner areas,because that is what they are, who freakin cares. By the way I have thrown dirt at Collanade,Snoqualmie and some trails up at Tokul. So Quit always bitchin at the people that like things a little bigger and faster, grab your bike and go ride. rip it baby, Later
 
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dbirds2

Chimp
Sep 15, 2007
60
0
fm! everyones got ther own opinion, one thing I'm not is a passive pussy like most people in Seattle. Doing things the the so called right way hasnt got jack s... done. Screw the political way, it sucks just look at this country, doings things the right,political way sucks, you freakin passive idiot.
 

Makana425

Monkey
Feb 21, 2008
200
0
Snocompton
Bro! Last time I checked there is no 15-25ft tables at collanade, I could be wrong. I talked to some of the people who are going to build some of the duthie lines and they are very limited on how big they can build. My point is places like these are fun for a bit, then get very boring. Riding underneath a freeway is not mountain biking!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!and I do not want to wait until I am a old man before there is anything descent and legal in the
seattle area, so until then I will continue to get friends and drive up north where the riding,people and politics make sense. Later Mates!

Dbirds2 is right, It seems that the faster free riders and downhillers want to go and the bigger they want to go there is a need for bigger jumps. Once and xc rider comes along and sees its to big or illegal they get the politics involved and the trail gets shut down. To build a long trail that is smooth and good flow takes numerous hours of trail building. Why doesn't people tare down xc trails? The point i am getting a crossed is that if the trail are to big go back when your physically and mentally ready. There is no need for trails to be torn down or changed just because you cant hit them.
 

Borneo

Turbo Monkey
Mar 22, 2004
1,011
0
Duvall
Stuff doesn't get torn down because its, "too big" for some. It gets torn down because it's bootlegged in on someone else's property. (Yes, "public" property qualifies.) Simple as that. the bigger it is, the bigger the liability. No matter what state law says. XC trails get closed too. All the time.

Edit: some things are better left unsaid....

Kids...

Back to chuckling from the side lines. :popcorn:
 
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Makana425

Monkey
Feb 21, 2008
200
0
Snocompton
Stuff doesn't get torn down because its, "too big" for some. It gets torn down because it's bootlegged in on someone else's property. (Yes, "public" property qualifies.) Simple as that. the bigger it is, the bigger the liability. No matter what state law says. XC trails get closed too. All the time.

Edit: some things are better left unsaid....

Kids...

Back to chuckling from the side lines. :popcorn:
Liability is the main issue. Like colonnade the expert line had a road gap and some good doubles. Now people get freaked out because it is to big or they cant hit it. The expert line should have gaps. From how i see it we build are trails you leave us alone and we leave you alone.:cheers: