[PsychO!1]

Hey kids.....save your allowance and buy your own land. Build as big as you want and nobody can tear it down.

If you want to play on someone elses land, It's reasonable to expect to havr to play by their rules.

 

[fuzzycatnuts]

Liability is the main issue. Like colonnade the expert line had a road gap and some good doubles. Now people get freaked out because it is to big or they cant hit it. The expert line should have gaps. From how i see it we build are trails you leave us alone and we leave you alone.

We always had a plain to put in a brige on the "road gap", Mike did try and go to bat for us on this and keep the gap but the city said no gaps. I still think its a fun line and what a great place for riders to safely build up to bigger jumps. Your missing the point, this is a stepping stone for bigger and better things. If you want big gaps get involved, how do you think the guys a P.A, Post Canyon, Blackrock got legit trails with big gaps?
By the way, DNR is has known about 27, 38 ect.. for years...


Do you understand the concept of property? You cant just go build what ever you want on someone else property and not expect it to be torn down.
Belive me I have seen a trail that took me hunderds of hours to build distroyed in 1 day. This is why I seek out a sustainable legal way to build now, dont get me wrong, most of my riding is done at illegal spots and I am glad people built them, sometimes it has to be done.

We are all on the same side and want the same thing. And unless we want t continue this circle of building without permission then watching it get torn down we are going to have to buck up and work with DNR, Landownders, ect... I know politics suck but thats the way it is.

 

[fuzzycatnuts]

fm! everyones got ther own opinion, one thing I'm not is a passive pussy like most people in Seattle. Doing things the the so called right way hasnt got jack s... done. Screw the political way, it sucks just look at this country, doings things the right,political way sucks, you freakin passive idiot.

Correct me if I am wrong, but arent you the guy the just got a bunch of your jumps torn down? What are you going to do, go down there and beat up the landowners? Your so tuff for talking smack on the internet, I think it is you who is sucking right now.


also you give props to Becon, P.A. and north shore, well guess what, they had to do things the political way and now have sweet trails to ride.

 

[asif]

Wow.. mnt bikers are some of the biggest assholes around it seems.

Everybody wants legit trails and appreciates anybody that is working towards that goal. But until there are some *legit* freeride/downhill trails around king county the black market trails will continue out of necessity. So deal with it and quit acting like its a good thing when they are torn down. Because guess what. One good one gets torn down 3 ****ty ones pop up.

 

[trailhacker]

Because guess what. One good one gets torn down 3 ****ty ones pop up.

Help me out here; is this a good thing or bad?

Seems to me the "renegade" (DNR's term) faction is the one doing the bitching?
If you choose that path, suck it up when it gets taken out. Should have known it was coming when they started. No use whining now.
I have been down the renegade path. If you ever ride any of the places no one is supposed to mention you have ridden trails I (with lots of help from others) built.
I have since given up that route as its not worth it to put in that much effort to be kicked out.



As for "gaps".
Help me understand this. The jumps are the same size (height, distance from lip-to-lip) now as "tabletops" as they were as "gaps" before. They just have the middle filled in? So in essence it is still the same jump just with a built-in safety net?
Am I correct in my understanding? If so, how can anyone have a problem with that? IT IS STILL THE SAME JUMP!

 

[dbirds2]

Asif is right on the nose on this subject. I have posted on this subject and say blah!blah!blah!, Maybe if certain people didnt act almost cheerfully when certain trails get torn down,stating thats why we build the right way,blah!blah! maybe mtn bikers wouldnt be crapping on each other and on certain projects. Until we get legit freeride/dh trails in the area the black market will continue and maybe in the future we,I wont have to hear some knuckle head say, I told you so. Out, off to ride in the black market.

 

[dbirds2]

Correct me if I am wrong, but arent you the guy the just got a bunch of your jumps torn down? What are you going to do, go down there and beat up the landowners? Your so tuff for talking smack on the internet, I think it is you who is sucking right now.


also you give props to Becon, P.A. and north shore, well guess what, they had to do things the political way and now have sweet trails to ride.

Actually I did build one of the jumps. I dont ride in the area anymore. I moved closer to Eastern British Columbia and Beacon, those are my new riding areas. I just feel sorry for my old riding partners having to deal with all that same B.S in the Seattle area and last time I checked Beacon,Pa and Canada are no where near Seattle. The Government and people of that area will never allow such riding places! Good Luck! It is a whole different breed of people in places like Eastern WA, Olympics and Canada. There is not as many people more open land and generally more freedom to do what you like.

 

[bockner]

I think the horse is dead.....you can stop beating it now

 

[Skookum]

i didn't call anyone names. Ego is not a bad word. And your opinion is your opinion, that's fine, but you took it to the level of bagging out the process. That's suicide for what you want, which is bigger/faster , even if you don't want to accept it.

Look i'm not trying to bag out on what you want to ride. Do you think i or anyone else want's to be a trail cop? Hell no.

i'm raising issues that nobody wants to talk about so we can all find out what everybody wants, and where we want to go. It always seems like we wind up tearing each other down in the process.

So let's make it simple.

If you hear there is an area like Black Diamond where there is future mountain bike projects. Chill out, cease and desist, and don't screw everybody to serve just yourself. That's all.

The fact is the politics are sucky and super slow. But i ask everyone including those who disagree with me to understand that there are people that are sacrificing so that things will be better.

i raise alot of points that might anger not only Freeride people but XC people. And i'm not doing it to make enemies. i'm doing it because nobody else will say it. Maybe i'm off the mark, and i don't think mountain bikers are bad and totally off course. i'm just saying we should all try to stay together and try to steer in the right direction together. Nobody can dispute with Galby, Black Rock, PA, Colonnade, that we have a ball rolling. i just want to put my point of view out there too, stuff to think about, and the reason is that i think if we think of ourselves as a whole, together. We'll get a hell of alot further than just thinking of our individual selves.

No reason to name call no more, it's good debate, see ya all on the trail.

 

[Makana425]

i didn't call anyone names. Ego is not a bad word. And your opinion is your opinion, that's fine, but you took it to the level of bagging out the process. That's suicide for what you want, which is bigger/faster , even if you don't want to accept it.

Look i'm not trying to bag out on what you want to ride. Do you think i or anyone else want's to be a trail cop? Hell no.

i'm raising issues that nobody wants to talk about so we can all find out what everybody wants, and where we want to go. It always seems like we wind up tearing each other down in the process.

So let's make it simple.

If you hear there is an area like Black Diamond where there is future mountain bike projects. Chill out, cease and desist, and don't screw everybody to serve just yourself. That's all.

The fact is the politics are sucky and super slow. But i ask everyone including those who disagree with me to understand that there are people that are sacrificing so that things will be better.

i raise alot of points that might anger not only Freeride people but XC people. And i'm not doing it to make enemies. i'm doing it because nobody else will say it. Maybe i'm off the mark, and i don't think mountain bikers are bad and totally off course. i'm just saying we should all try to stay together and try to steer in the right direction together. Nobody can dispute with Galby, Black Rock, PA, Colonnade, that we have a ball rolling. i just want to put my point of view out there too, stuff to think about, and the reason is that i think if we think of ourselves as a whole, together. We'll get a hell of alot further than just thinking of our individual selves.

No reason to name call no more, it's good debate, see ya all on the trail.

Bigger and faster isn't suicide, think of the world class dh, they want to go faster and go bigger. So why can't we? If you dont want to just go ride some where else

 

[bent^biker]

uhhhhh, how is that relevant? ^^^^

 

[bikegrrl]

I would bet that it was more all the **** left laying around than the trails, I know I would be pissed if land I owned was covered in beer cans, although once the woodwork goes up so do the odds of it being blown down.

Have you ever actually ridden there? I've seen one or two beer cans at most any of the multiple times I've been there.

 

[trailhacker]

Bigger and faster isn't suicide, think of the world class dh, they want to go faster and go bigger. So why can't we? If you dont want to just go ride some where else

Dude, reread what you quoted. If you don't get what is wrong with what you wrote here please sign up for a remedial reading comprehension class.

In case you still feel the same way (???), you CAN do what ever you want.
As long as:
1) you own the property you build bigger and faster on
2) you only build what is approved where it is approved
or, if all else fails:
3) you don't go all e-jihad (I am making a consious effort to include that saying as much as possible from now on!) on the FS, DNR or whoever rains on your parade.
You build bootleg knowing the risk is it is going to get torn down. Don't get in a huff WHEN (not if) that happens.


PS, you can go back a few years here if you searched the archives and find that this comes up probably once a year or more. And I still can't believe that people cut down living trees, nail into living trees and don't see this as a problem?????

 

[trailhacker]

Have you ever actually ridden there? I've seen one or two beer cans at most any of the multiple times I've been there.

?????????????
So isn't that one or two too many????

I think it was already stated in this thread, but if you can carry it in full why can't you take it out empty!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Fromet]

I enjoyed my time building and riding those trails. I fully understood that they would one day be torn down. You must work with the system if you expect your work to survive.
With that said, illegal trails will always exist, rule, then get torn down.

 

[Makana425]

I enjoyed my time building and riding those trails. I fully understood that they would one day be torn down. You must work with the system if you expect your work to survive.
With that said, illegal trails will always exist, rule, then get torn down.

i agree with you fromet, thats the way it goes, But if you want a legal trail that will take time. More time than you would want to spend as such why illegal trails get torn down

 

[CrashMaster]

i am gonna buy some property, build sick trails with gaps and everything, spread the word, post directions on the internet, wait til they're popular, and then tear em down. then you guys can start a new thread complaining about that. cuz this one is getting boring.

 

[bockner]

Have you ever actually ridden there? I've seen one or two beer cans at most any of the multiple times I've been there.

Why yes bikegrrl I have and if you have only seen one or two beer cans laying around then you were not looking too hard or maybe I should have included all the energy drink cans as well....either way its gone now

And trailhacker is right.....isn't two more than enough considering its someone elses property?

 

[Singletrackone]

Hi all,

First a good case guard takes care of the tabletop issue. Second we need to work with landowners who appreciate a good trail and use the legal framework established to protect more trails, Mtn biking is considered passive recreation and if we stopped smoking out and drinking beer all the time we might have enough time to pressure local land managers to let us build. Trails die because we as riders are lazy and unwilling to take on centers of power to make our lifestyle legit. Collonade is a great idea, but a poor subsitute for a 5 mile ripping descent. What we need is a few good lawyers who can put the paperwork together.....

 

[asif]

Im not sure what you ppl are smoking. The bitching i always see on these threads isnt from the builders that got there **** torn down but from the ppl that dont even ride the damn trails. "Thats what happens when ... bla legit bla bla". Well thanks for the advice dad.

OMG they put a spike in a tree or cut one down. WTF do you ppl wipe your asses with? I bet your house is under 5 years old and there was some nice plush forest there 6 years ago (somebody help me out with what thats called). But somebody takes out a few trees and moves a bit of dirt for 3 or 4 lines that are about quarter mile a piece and you act like they are drowning kittens and having satanic rituals.

5 acres of forest stripped bare? Be a bit more dramatic please.

How the hell does a church have enough money to buy all this land? Or is this public land that they manage? If its public land we dont have the right to do whatever we want. But dont act like they are bending over backwards allowing us to use our land. We are the tax paying public right?

I think the next step is to get a religion recognized and build a church at the top of twenty7 and put signs all around saying "no whiny bitches".

 

[bikegrrl]

?????????????
So isn't that one or two too many????

I think it was already stated in this thread, but if you can carry it in full why can't you take it out empty!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I do. And so do all of my friends. But I don't think it's my responsibility to babysit less-respectful people by packing out their cans too.

 

[asif]

Oh and one more thing. For the ppl bitching about spiking and cutting down trees. If i find out you kill live trees and stick presents under then come christmas time. I am going to break into your houses, take your trees, and put them in your front yard with signs on them saying "Tree Killer lives here".

 

[Makana425]

asif, i totally agree, well said, props for you man

 

[asif]

I do. And so do all of my friends. But I don't think it's my responsibility to babysit less-respectful people by packing out their cans too.

Dont pack the cans out. Thats how the builders get paid. Its a long drive to Oregon but chi chiing$$ But please kick the plastic water bottles in the holes that were dug and kick dirt over them. I feel its quite stupid to haul those out as they will be put in a hole and covered up somewhere else by sanitation engineers.

 

[dirtmover]

I hardly if ever post in this site cause there's way to much arguing going on. From an outsider looking in on this site makes one want to never post here. Those trails were very sweet and even the ones that did have big stunt were also very much a blast. And for those that didn't or weren't able to ride these trails you had missed out on some killer riding. To all the guys invovled in building I thank you.

R.I.P. Black Diamond

 

[PeachesN'Cream]

 

[fuzzycatnuts]

RIP Berm Trail

 

[trailhacker]

WOW, just wow. I sincerely hope you are just a pot-stirrer and aren't truly this ignorant?!?

The bitching i always see on these threads isnt from the builders that got there **** torn down but from the ppl that dont even ride the damn trails.

The "bitching and whining" DID start in this thread by people that ride the trails. Don't know if they were building or not. Also please see thread titled "idiots in the forest service". If that isn't a bitch-fest by a rider/potential builder I don't know what is.
But more importantly is they are ignoring the intent of the original poster of this thread: contact him to see if something can be worked out to SAVE at least a portion of these trails. Seriously, go back to the original post and re-read it. Yes, they are willing to let people build trails on THEIR property. Probably not huck-gnar-tastic. So I guess your not interested then?

OMG they put a spike in a tree or cut one down. WTF do you ppl wipe your asses with? I bet your house is under 5 years old and there was some nice plush forest there 6 years ago (somebody help me out with what thats called).

Do you know how the majority of people make money on forrested property THEY OWN? By harvesting timber. Do you have any idea what a big nail or "spike" does to a saw (or even worse to the person operating it) either cutting down the tree or proccessing it into usable wood products? Its one of the preffered methods for eco-terrorists; once the harvesters realize a tree has been "spiked" that tree may become unusable for fear of damage or injury. Seriously, look into it.
What right do you have to cut down trees that SOMEONE else owns? Mind if I come into your yard and start cutting down trees? How about I go into the far reaches of your property and start making things to my liking. I think I would take a shotgun to someone that tried this on my property.
The 2-ply I prefer and the timber in my 60yo house were both made from relatively the same thing; timber harvested and sold for profit by the people that OWNED the timber and property.

How the hell does a church have enough money to buy all this land? Or is this public land that they manage? If its public land we dont have the right to do whatever we want. But dont act like they are bending over backwards allowing us to use our land. We are the tax paying public right?

Are you knew to this country? Religion is big business, although technically "not for profit". They have enough money for this by soliciting donations from their members. And the larger church as a whole probably contributes too for what I would think would be a smaller church (franchise if you will) in BD. I really hope this isn't some foreign concept to you?
And yes, this is PRIVATE PROPERTY. This does not mean that you as a taxpayer have some right to it. Thats what PRIVATE PROPERTY means.
And yes again, they ARE bending over backwards to allow people to build trials on THEIR property.

I think the next step is to get a religion recognized and build a church at the top of twenty7 and put signs all around saying "no whiny bitches".

If this really bothers you so much then the next step is to buy your own land. Then you can put whatever signs you want.
Just remember though, some kid is going to come out there and start building things you don't want there. And dumping garbage.
Because they think they should be able to; (somebody help me out with what thats called) oh yeah, a sense of entitlement. What's mine is yours and all that.

 

[Uruk-hai]

Well said Trailhacker.

 

[dbirds2]

if these property owners are going to tear down the trails they could do a little common courtesy and make sure they pull all the nails and spikes out of the trees. Seems to me if they were worried about timber for dollars, they would get on it and get er done.

A GOOD TREE IS ONE USED TO BUILD TRAILS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[asif]

trailhacker, your a jerk, I bet a buddy that skookum would post first and just lost five bucks. And I'm not ignorant, just bored and sick of seeing these threads. SSDD

 

[CrashMaster]

Webmaster, PLEASE delete this thread.

 

[bikegrrl]

I hardly if ever post in this site cause there's way to much arguing going on. From an outsider looking in on this site makes one want to never post here. Those trails were very sweet and even the ones that did have big stunt were also very much a blast. And for those that didn't or weren't able to ride these trails you had missed out on some killer riding.

Why not help Thom get access again, then? I am.

 

[Singletrackone]

Well said, we need better access, not less

 

[Skookum]

trailhacker, your a jerk, I bet a buddy that skookum would post first and just lost five bucks. And I'm not ignorant, just bored and sick of seeing these threads. SSDD

Haha, i'm pretty busy lately, otherwise that would have been a pretty good bet.

"Thats what happens when ... bla legit bla bla". Well thanks for the advice dad.

If i'm "dad" then you would be the strung out meth-head uncle.

Hopefully most mountain bikers out there know who better to trust in opinions.

By everybody here being vocal, it's pretty apparent there is a disconnect. Hopefully alot of people are thinking about this kinda stuff now. i'd rather people like you and others hate on me, than we as a group kinda float around not paying any attention to the problems we have.

Anyways sorry to defocus off the main point. i don't think all the trails need to die. Go back to the first post, never hurts to ask the owners what they may or may not go for. Colonnade can be used as a guide to show the owners what can be done or more. That's a big reason why it's important even though you don't like riding there.

 

[Knobularlife]

Did you know pigs is smart as dogs?



It's true

 

[Skookum]

Did you know pigs is smart as dogs?



It's true

Bananas...

 

[ThomRandolph]

Pigs might be as smart as dogs, but what about cats and snakes? I dunno about you, but I don't think I've ever seen a pig lick it's a$$ and then try to kiss me! So from that alone I think I'd prefer a pig. No, wait...pigs can't keep up with even ME on a good trail ride. Dang...guess it's back to the dogs after all....

Seriously, folks, thanks a huge amount for the opinion-spewing; it's been a treat to sit by and take it all in. Believe it or not, you ALL made great points, and provided some good links to films.

Thanks especially for posting the YouTube one about the Berm trail, as that not only looks like an awesome trail, but a SUSTAINABLE one too. If you look at the forest around that trail, it actually looks HEALTHY. That's what we want the Church to see...that we CAN make fun trails on **their** property that they can go for. If anyone has other videos, photos, etc. about those trails that can help show what's possible and how it's awesome, it will go a long way toward helping the Church understand that it wasn't just a bunch of loser crazies on beer- and red bull-fuelled forest-slashing frenzy.

I've been out to BD a couple times since this all started, and we definitely have our work cut out for us. As always, the rains are coming back in late September if not sooner. Because of that, we really need to get that area cleaned up before then. Plus, there ain't no safe way off that side of the hill anymore! Yeah, that just ain't right. So, we need to clean up and pack down the loose dirt, and make work with the Church to decide what kind of trail is reasonable there.

The other thing to remember is that most of the trails up there are actually VERY sensitive to their environment. They've put in mostly-decent bridges over tagged wetlands, and in general they are well made trails that don't damage the forest of the trees. All the builders can be proud of that, and it's something we can show the Church as evidence that by-and-large MTB trail builders ARE responsible stewards of their lands.

Another thing I noticed while out there is there is definitely a need for clearer signing by the Church down below. Entering from the flat part on SR169, I can see how it might be unclear that it's the same chunk of land as what you come into from the top, across from the coal-car. So everyone knows what's what, I've recommended the Church put the "please do ride here just don't build new trails" signs down below, like there are up above. There are some restrictions about the signs not being visible from the road, but nothing that can't be dealt with.

Someone asked whether there had been an environmental impact study done on the building plans yet. Man, you have no idea. First, the Church hasn't filed any firm plans yet, as they're still thinking and talking about it what they want to build, and where. That's a ways off yet. But you wanna know what? Even THEY, as "developers" get some crazy s**t thrown at them. Apparently in the beginning, someone in one department or another of King County (that will remain nameless) decided they hated ALL churches, and tried to slap a blanket wetland designation across the entire 99 acres. Not only is that just crazy, but if it had stood, it could have closed the land to ALL uses! The Church people are the ones who stood up to keep bike access even in areas near the wetlands, and eventually saner heads prevailed.

I've had a LOT of good input from people inside and outside this thread, and I want to thank you all. I'll be contacting many of you, including some of those posting here, to see if you're interested in getting together to figure out a way to make this work. Please feel free to contact me offline at thom at tctrandolph.com, or 425-761-5259. Really. I want your input, and I want your help in making this work. Yes, even if all you want to do is rant and whine and tell me I'm the worst kind of political trash there is. Hey...you wouldn't be the first one...and those are the people that LIKE me!

And believe me, I completely sympathize with those who say "politics suck", 'cause let's face it: it does. But, it's how real, upstanding, long-lasting agreements get made. Sure it's slow, sure the meetings can be boring when we'd all rather be out riding the trails than talking about them. I don't ride DH or FR and when I ride XC sometimes the trees jump in front of me. I do, however, often manage to find compromises that people can live with. And I'm willing to live through those unending meetings, taking notes, suggesting alternatives, and finding that common ground so the rest of the monkeys can ride. Well, so I can ride too...gotta have SOME level of entitlement in me, after all, I AM American!

So, what do we do next? What any red-blooded RideMonkey would do: start a new thread! Yeah, baby. Look for more posts soon, and thanks a bunch for keeping the thread wholly confrontational; passion is good!

Thom Randolph
thom at tctrandolph.com
425-761-5259

 

[dirtmover]

Thom

So as of right now will the berm trail be staying? That trail was one of the features out there that was the most useful to me and my riding. It was well built and very well maintained.

 

[ThomRandolph]

As of this moment, the berm trail as we knew it is mostly R.I.P, with short sections still in place but the flow gone. Of the runs, lines and stunts that the Church removed, that would likely be the easiest to get them to agree to. Can't promise anything until we actually talk to them, of course, but I'm optimistic.