[Skookum]

Hi the Sheep here again.

Land managers are concerned about trail sustainability and if there are going to be structures they need to be concerned about integrity and maintenance. Fall zones and other hazards are needed to be prevented, so competent planning is required. Trail construction is on a higher level demands experienced builders that can win the confidence that things might not necessarily be safe, but the stunt itself will not cause injury. As well as assurances your young cousin Billy doesn't go diggin up wetlands and humpin the rare ducks.

Please look at this page.

http://www.bbtc.org/wiki/index.php?title=Trail_Building

My back hurts from over 400 hours put in this year at Colonnade? Who's using who to advance a sport? Hell i don't even consider it a sport. And like i just wrote in an email, i'll never ride Colonnade as much time as i've spent writing about Colonnade, defending it from people who think to easy and too hard, and a waste of time and money, maybe that's why i'm comin off like an a-hole. (even though i think i'm being pretty cool about it all considering)

Anyways i'll be glad to assist in any endeavor with advice and i might show up for a dig day or 2 on any project that is on the up and up. Scotty, Andy, and Pip did a big favor for me helping me on a project when i really needed it. i'm just a phone call away from stepping up and helping them for any legal endeavor they call me for.

 

[fuzzycatnuts]

This thread is so Epic!

 

[ThomRandolph]

SP and others:

Ah...I see the disconnect now. Actually, the things you've listed that I wrote started with the phrase "...what they saw...". As in what the church people saw. I can see how that might have been confusing and controversial. Guess I should have given that disclaimer more, eh? Those were communicated to me as being their PERCEPTIONS. Not what was really there, but what they believed they saw when they came upon it. It was their perception of the situation that freaked them out, and it was their perception that caused them to act. Sorry if I made their perceptions seem to be claims of fact.

On the other hand, what I saw, because I arrived only after the damage was done, was a bunch of what might have been very cool trails that had been ripped to sh!t by some crazy fool with a backhoe and belly full of fiery vengeance. Hopefully at least THAT was clear in my post.

That I'm somehow new to this particular set of people doesn't mean I'm new to the area, or to land use issues there. <<huge amount of my history of negotiating land-use agreements for conservation and recreation in the area removed>>. The group I normally work with, Friends of Rock Creek Valley, were the ones who originally convinced the Church to allow recreational access to continue, to include it in their plans for the land, to set aside most of the land they were buying as openspace with recreational access, and to be part of the Black Diamond Agreement. The FRCV has already worked successfully to get over 5000 acres, and will in the next few years (hopefully) put over 10000 acres into permanent open space in that area. All of that with recreational access including hikers, MTBers and equestrians. Some people build trails; I help build agreements, and I am always very pointed about requiring they include MTB access. That's what I'm doing here too: moving the status quo to a better place, so those who've invested their time and effort will have a place at this table.

The one thing I have to take issue with is your statement that the posting should have included more facts. Actually, getting to those facts was the whole point of my post, SP. I knew I didn't have them, and that's why I was asking for the builders to get in touch with me about what DID happen. All the information I had was what the Church claimed, and I wanted to know the other side. Still do ;-).

In truth, SP, I didn't return your voicemail message 'cause I hate taking notes on the phone. I need to reliably pass the information on to the Church so I can calm their perceptions about what went on out there. If it's a fact, it should be openly stated as such, and I'm a big fan of "in writing".

Again, sorry if what I originally wrote made you--or anybody else--think I was proclaiming truth or siding against the builders/riders. I was not. I was passing on what the Church told me they perceived. They asked me to find the truth.

Thom

 

[swisscirca]

I have sat idely by fo long enough. you people are all beating a dead horse. Screw that tiny little hill. The jumps were great for the years that they lasted. After being rebuilt three different occations, I say it's time they die. The church wants nothing more than to press charges and for what reason? isn't that a little unchristian??????

Those jumps were originally constructed over four years ago, back when that hill was not owned by the church or PLumb Creek(who owns the other acreage right next to it.) You couldn't even tell when the church did buy the property because there were no signs posted, the jumps are right in the middle of the two properties from what i understand.

That small trail was constructed on an old 4x4 trail, where rednecks used to drink beer, dump trash, and shoot guns. There was so much crap out there it was insane. Car parts, garbage, couch cushions.(built into one of the jumps), car batteries, etc. As far as I am concerned the place looks cleaner than ever.

Yes people are going to come in AT ANY TIME and start building their own stuff at these spots, That is probably the one or two spikes in trees and the 5 or 6 (NOT 40) trees that were cut down.

I also heard someone mention a wetland at the bottom of the hill, B.S. that is where plumb creek tends to build a concrete complex of crappy stores. WHyis it okay to pave a road, and build the buildings down there if this actually was wetlands????

And for those of you that think we are going to go ride at colonade, your retarded. The only reason why these jumps were built in the first place was to have cool jumps close to home. Why would someone, like myself, drive 45 min to ride stupid a$$ jumps. any time we get a group to build legite jumps like this, they are going to turn out crappy. lets face it Sweet jumps are too dangerous to allow.

 

[ThomRandolph]

Indeed, that thread died about a week ago. But, you raise a couple points that can't just sit there, so I'll give it a go.

The Church does NOT want to press charges against anybody. If you somehow got that idea from the thread, sorry, but you read wrong. The Church DOES want to work with riders and builders so they CAN continue using the land.

Plum Creek Timber would not be able to build at the bottom of that hill for the same reason the Church can't: it's a King County designated wetland. And, just to be clear, Plum Creek Timber is not in the habit of building anything. They always sell the land to someone else who then puts up stores and houses. Plum Creek does wood and land.

The paved road at the bottom of that hill, close to the current road, is the old SR-169 roadbed, back when it was two lanes with no shoulder. The state put it in, not Plum Creek, not King County, not the Church.

Anyway, yeah, there will be more fun threads and discussion to come. I hope to be meeting with the Pastor of the Church this week sometime and those of us willing can move forward both on that "crappy little hillside", and on a plan for the other parts of the property. And yes, I actually WILL be passing along your statements that the jumps were there for years; they DO need to know that!

Thom Randolph

 

[fuzzycatnuts]

I have sat idely by fo long enough. you people are all beating a dead horse. Screw that tiny little hill. The jumps were great for the years that they lasted. After being rebuilt three different occations, I say it's time they die. The church wants nothing more than to press charges and for what reason? isn't that a little unchristian??????

Those jumps were originally constructed over four years ago, back when that hill was not owned by the church or PLumb Creek(who owns the other acreage right next to it.) You couldn't even tell when the church did buy the property because there were no signs posted, the jumps are right in the middle of the two properties from what i understand.

That small trail was constructed on an old 4x4 trail, where rednecks used to drink beer, dump trash, and shoot guns. There was so much crap out there it was insane. Car parts, garbage, couch cushions.(built into one of the jumps), car batteries, etc. As far as I am concerned the place looks cleaner than ever.

Yes people are going to come in AT ANY TIME and start building their own stuff at these spots, That is probably the one or two spikes in trees and the 5 or 6 (NOT 40) trees that were cut down.

I also heard someone mention a wetland at the bottom of the hill, B.S. that is where plumb creek tends to build a concrete complex of crappy stores. WHyis it okay to pave a road, and build the buildings down there if this actually was wetlands????

And for those of you that think we are going to go ride at colonade, your retarded. The only reason why these jumps were built in the first place was to have cool jumps close to home. Why would someone, like myself, drive 45 min to ride stupid a$$ jumps. any time we get a group to build legite jumps like this, they are going to turn out crappy. lets face it Sweet jumps are too dangerous to allow.

your the one that bumped this thread with your post after 13 days w/o reply


I agree some of the things said in the 1st post were not true and I did not know the background on that place.

Since you have not been to colonnade I dont see how you can say the jumps suck, they dont have gaps but they are still fun, and guess what, its illegal to vandalize it. Plus the builders dont have to worry about someone else coming along and changing the jumps all the time. I stopped riding some of the jumps at blk D. for that very reason.

Colonnade is a starting place for legit freeride/dh, and example to show king county ect.. that we know what we are doing. Post Canyon, Black Rock, Becon, Bellingham ect.. have Sweet jumps that are big, dangerous, and built by groups of people, why cant we?

 

[trailhacker]

I have sat idely by fo long enough. you people are all beating a dead horse.

Classic, just classic...

 

[swisscirca]

I hope that nobody builds there ever again. Also I doubt it will happen, as far as liabilities... I personally know of three people who were sent to the hospital from those jumps, and another just last week who was seriously injured at the xc trails.

SORRY for bringing the post back up, I didn't notice because I have been trying not to hear about this(kind of a sore subject for me personally)

Also for Tohm, I did not gather from the post that the church wants to press charges, I heard that from other sources in black diamond as I am fairly well connected to the place. Aparantly there is a crazy horse lady who goes to that church that is very well connected in local gov. and SHE is the one who is SOOOOOOOO pissed.

Needless to say I will never build there again for fear of too many reasons. Jumps are meant to be way out in the woods, where people don't know about them, so newbs won't try anything stupid that they don't know how to do!!!!!

 

[ThomRandolph]

Um, actually, that "crazy horse lady" has been a good friend of mine for coming up on six years, and we have worked together to get many areas held permanently open for mountain biking. Indeed, she is the one who invited me to join the Friends of Rock Creek Valley as a voting member of their "steering committee", and specifically as an MTB advocate. She's also the one who recommended the church bring me in on this fun. If anything, I'd say she WAS pissed...back in early July when this started. But, that passed within just a day or so. Now, she, like me, is more interested in getting something cool AND sustainable out there.

And yes, she is far better connected than you or I ever will be, and she knows way more about the local history, local, state and county regulations than any of us. But, she is not pissed, and she is not trying to press charges, nor is she encouraging anybody to do so. But, like a very sharp tool, you can either use it to create great things, or you can cut yourself by using it wrongly. Your choice ;-). Me, I LIKE sharp tools!

Can't say much about whether jumps "should" be way out in the woods, but I can definitely say the ones there are not way out anywhere. Yeah, they're like what...200 yards from the road?

If you're a builder, that's cool and I hope one of these days you realize we want to create something cool out there, and that the church does too. But, it's no problem for us if you don't want to be a part of that. If you're one who built the cool stuff, then thanks, and I hope we can fix it back to somewhere close to how you had it. Having your help would be great. OTOH, if you built the wooden structures, then we'll all be happy if you don't put anything up there until we can get the Church to sign off on what's to be done, and we can build it right. Anyway, peace out.

And just so I'm really clear here: Thank you for sharing your opinions. Even if they are not my own, I respect them and am glad to hear them.

 

[Borneo]

 

[ThomRandolph]

Bob, you're one sick, sick puppy. And that's what I like about you! Thanks for the humor!

 

[Qman]

Just reading the last page and somewhere in the middle when I was busy with life, but I remember the one and only time I was out to those 'sweet jumps' last year. There were builders digging and building, etc. Not sure who was who but one from our pack hit up one of their new stunts just for giggles. Can't say I thought it looked like anything spectacular but I can say that if the people out there that day put down the bong for a while and tried to get involved, this whole thread probably wouldn't exist.

 

[Borneo]

Qman, e-mail me about that work visit for the kid.

Back on topic. Thanks Thom. I try...

 

[bockner]

"crazy horse lady".....enough said

 

[Skookum]

Tohm, I did not gather from the post that the church wants to press charges, I heard that from other sources in black diamond as I am fairly well connected to the place.

You should get a job at King 5 for this thorough investigative reporting.

Since we're talked about Duvall before, i know that Justin Vanderpol of Evergreen told me that DNR hired new people specifically for the purpose of stopping illegal activities including trail building. So i would only encourage someone who's building a meth lab to go there anymore.

But i think it would take a number of hits on the bong for me to think Thom here is trying to pull a "coup" and corral the possibly hundreds to thousands of people that have built trail around Sawyer. And i haven't smoked for over 16 years so i would be a lightweight.

i'm just sittin here thinking about people doing night rides at Sawyer and hearing the spooky wail of the mysterious crazy horse lady in the black night. As she howls, "WooooOOOOOooooh i'm gonna call the cops on YoooooOOOOOOoooouuuu."

 

[smurr]

Wish I could have been in the conversation earlier guys but just found out about the chatter.
Im the pastor of the church that the trails are on.

Lots of distorted information flying around the community and the web so let me try to explain whats happening and what our intent is for this property and the trails that are currently there.

Then I will try and answer any questions that come up, if there are any, on the thread and my web site www.reallifechurch.com on the property blog section.

1. we own 89.2 acres of a 320 acre parcel plum creek had (we purchased in 2006) we will be building a church someday approx 750 feet from the "future home of " sign near the parking area.

2. We wont be building for a few years but we are required to thin the trees on the property due to the forestry managment plan we are following per king county. it requires us to remove every 3rd tree to allow light in to promote growth of the understory and healthy forest. We will be doing this in the next few months. To do this we need to make a short section of logging road from the sign to the existing logging road.

This will also create more parking for mtn bikers to use. It will be 14' wide and graveled. It will have to cross over current trails but you shouldnt see a ton of change on the upper trails. In a couple months the loggers will thin and there will be alot of interuption for about 2 weeks then no action for a couple years.

3. The church has no intentions of trying to find out who built the down hill coarse.We dont care about that.

The ones who tore them down were board members that were concerned for liability sake and were concerned for enviromental reasons and our obligation to the county to protect the slopes.There are so many restrictions on this land by the county and black diamond that I wont go into but trust me these guys had good reason to be freaked.

4. The trees that were cut was a big concern as well because we want the land to remain mostly forest.

5. The place the ramps were made was already damaged by 4x4s and we were going to have to restore it. Now the project is much much bigger.

6. We are interested in finding someone to propose a enviromentaly friendly down hill course that wouldnt include the launch ramp and the "i want to die young" creations that were built hurriedly and dangerously. No promises but very interested in working together. By the way king county has $75,000.00 grants for public recreation on private land and I think this would qualify.

7 We would like to have a clean up party on the site as well as a tree planting in october.

8. we have no intentions of clear cutting or removing the trails on top.

9. we have permits issued by the county for the logging road construction.

10. If you want to see a post video to mountain bikers from me click
http://www.tokbox.com/post/6zzbvllbvkn1

hope this answers a few things

steve murray
pastor of real life church
Black Diamond

 

[bockner]

I bet nobody expected that from the church!

 

[ThomRandolph]

Well, I for one expected it. Okay, last night when Steve and I talked, I did kinda, maybe, just a little, **ask** him to post something directly from the Church.

Steve and the Church are really, genuinely interested in having great MTB experience out there. If you listen to the video, you can to hear it in his own words: yes, let's replant the hillside; yes let's rebuild the berm trail; yes, let's talk about a downhill run; yes, let's look into making a pump track. And as importantly: nobody's going to have a cow about what went before; let's work together.

Steve told me they'd like to have a preliminary rough design of the rebuilt trails in that area by around December of this year. We should start with a berm trail, and then talk about a DH run and a pump track. It won't be like the Collonade, either in the complexity of the course, nor in the time to plan and build. They're interested in doing something soon, and we have less of the City/County stuff to work with. But, as Steve says, they want to be involved in the decisions and planning of what gets built.

So...who here can help us redesign that berm trail? Who wants to come out in early October for a replanting and cleanup party?

Thom

 

[coiler7]

Hey Pastor Murray & Real Life Church members:
Huge Thanks for clearing up things!!! I've been riding that general area since '98, so I'm REALLY encouraged about the possiblity of more "approved" downhill trails there in the future!
I'm sure there will be plenty of us, from all over, volunteering to help in the upcoming clearing project you mentioned & whatever is needed towards actual trail building. The proposed parking area is very welcome, too.
Kudos to You & Thanks again for your words & tremendous consideration!
Regards
-Mark W
Kent/Covington

 

[bockner]

Early October works, PM me when ready

 

[geargrrl]

I'll try to find the exact statute reference or a link, but Washington has excellent laws that protect landowners from recreation liability - some of the best in the nation. Essentially, as long as a landowner isn't charging a fee, and is not creating hazards, they are very well protected in the case of a liability lawsuit. Landowners sometimes get really concerned over this, not knowing that they are protected from most kinds of lawsuits in this state.

 

[jimbo_the_biker]

When does the jesus wallride go in?

 

[bockner]

I was going to say who knew god was a DHer but didn't want to bring religion into it....but think of the religious themed stunts, holy grail, resurection, the crucifix...we could go on all day!

 

[smurr]

He might but he would probobly have to wear pants instead of a robe.

We will look at all ideas and proposals but the law mentioned above is as stated but if there is a known hazzard or danger the law doesnt cover us.
I think high jumps may be a hazard but burms and banks and DH run and pump track may work. lots to explore but we are open. the Colonaide got 50,000.00 from king county and there is up to 75,000.00 per applicant available yearly so funds may be available. any grant writers out there?

steve murray

 

[Skookum]

Just some quick factoids that might help define the process.

Colonnade is built underneath a freeway deck where the soil conditions are dry, sifty, dusty, unstable. Also we crammed alot of stuff in not that much space (about 3 acres).

That soil around the church is prime good draining stuff.

Basically what that means is we had to do 20 times more work to get stuff to be dialed and last, where if you plan correctly, do good drainage, you guys should be able to slam out a real nice berm trail and pump track and DH flow track in not that much time/or cost.

Any decent pump track (including Colonnades built by Mike Wadholm/Center Cycle) takes pre-planning to get proper drainage, proper spacing for bumps and berms. So it's labor intensive (lot of work) but relatively cheap because all you primarily need is alot of quality soil.

A berm line you would just try to keep the berms from puddling too much, putting them high on a trail with the slope of the trail quickly reversing to shed to water directly below the berm. So you want them high and not in a gully...

Doable stuff, that you don't need the tons of rock/paver/wood for reshaping and retention. There is more wind to your back on a project like this, this is great news and i'll be really stoked to see what comes of this. Good on ya.

 

[dirtmover]

To me this doesn't sound like anything that was there wont be going back except for the berm trail. And after 32 berms I'm willing to bet that the orginal builds now have one hell of a clue on how to build berms.
Dh runs there would kind of blow because it's such a short hill. Pump track sounds like fun but if I'm going into the woods to play I would rather have something a little more fun then a pump track.
And just to let you know most of the builders from there do NOT come to ridemonkey.

My two cents.

 

[ThomRandolph]

I've been posting on the EMBA (BBTC) list also. Hopefully those who know the builders will point them in our direction, eh?

 

[swisscirca]

I agree there isn't anything the same going back in, except the berms. Therefore you will not get support from a lot of people who actually do build, for example ME. If you were to actually put larger and smaller jump lines, not dh runs, (this place never was "dh" it was just jumps) then you might get a few more REAL builders out there.

I think it's cool for the begginers or slalom racers to have a pump track/ berm run. But for people who want jumps, it sounds like that is not going to happen.

If you do allow jumps, who decides what is unsafe. you have stated numerous times how the jumps were built poorly and unsafe. Well DUH they are built poorly as far as peices of wood and crap stuffed under the dirt, have you ever tried to dig jumps of that size with only a shovel????

I have seen small little jumps at seatac that take more people out then the big gaps other places. Just because it is small and doesn't have a gap does not mean it is "safer."

It would actually be good to see if you could build decent mid sized jumps for the locals who are going to be riding out there. Which after the last year watching the number of people grow who ride out there, it is mostly xc guys crossing over(don't know how to hit jumps) or local kids/teens(who also don't really know how to ride)

And there is NO way you are going to, but I would like to see some 20ft gap jumps again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Skookum]

I agree there isn't anything the same going back in, except the berms. Therefore you will not get support from a lot of people who actually do build, for example ME. If you were to actually put larger and smaller jump lines, not dh runs, (this place never was "dh" it was just jumps) then you might get a few more REAL builders out there.


And there is NO way you are going to, but I would like to see some 20ft gap jumps again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

i dunno man...

It's really hard to do a trail build with permission sometimes. Simply because you can't build whatever you want.

Or can't you.....

How i do it is find out exacty what i can and can't do, and then try to "bend" to what i want.

For example they say no gaps right now. And you say how about an easy line and a hard line. Well if you were able to convince Mr. Murray that the easy table top line can be easily identified, with plenty of signs. And you made the bigger possibly gap jump line easily identified as the danger line, maybe you can make it happen?

That's the permission part you have to hash over with Mr. Murray.

But as far as actually making that happen, pre-planning and flagging and routing that trail first thing off the bat, can make it easier to accomplish a trail like this. For example Kims (Fuzzy) line has a 4 plus foot drop right off the bat, so that eliminates the stray newb from entering a zone that's way over their head.

What i've found is that sometimes through the process of having to adjust to stuff, that i get ideas, and it really makes you be more creative to get what you want. And really sometimes you come out the other side of the build with the realization that it actually turned out better than if you just kind of went and did your thing, because you start thinking about the build even more.

Anyways hope things work out, one way or another...

 

[dbirds2]

Oh YA!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Just let this hill go. A berm trail and pump track without descent jumps and stunts just isn't worth the butt kissing, especially after the efforts of alot of people to get that place to where it once was. I think that you should keep this place for singletrack only, because newer and bigger stuff is already getting built. I dont think the old crews up there will bother after the blood and sweat they put in. Maybe a new crew will try and do a little something there who knows. Off to greener pastures. LATER

 

[ebxtreme]

Off to greener pastures. LATER

Greener pastures.......like Ephrata?

Funny.

 

[PsychO!1]

I think I finally understand.....

It appears the builders of these trails have no interest in doing it legally or legitimatly. They view themselves as the hardcore, underground element of mt biking. Once that element becomes legitimate or legal....they've lost what they believe makes them cool. They have no interest in making it mainstream, in fact, they'll do what they can in sure it doesn't.

 

[jimbo_the_biker]

I think I finally understand.....

It appears the builders of these trails have no interest in doing it legally or legitimatly. They view themselves as the hardcore, underground element of mt biking. Once that element becomes legitimate or legal....they've lost what they believe makes them cool. They have no interest in making it mainstream, in fact, they'll do what they can in sure it doesn't.

Thats just stupid. No builder likes seeing their trails get torn down, but I don't think people are cool with kissing ass to a church. I know I'm not.

-James.

 

[fuzzycatnuts]

I think I finally understand.....

It appears the builders of these trails have no interest in doing it legally or legitimatly. They view themselves as the hardcore, underground element of mt biking. Once that element becomes legitimate or legal....they've lost what they believe makes them cool. They have no interest in making it mainstream, in fact, they'll do what they can in sure it doesn't.

As others have said in this thread, most of the builders dont post on this site and there were differnt groups of people doing the work out there. Dont be giving judgement about all the builders from one or two people posting to this thread. Many of those same builders you are talking about have put in a fair share of time at colonnade. Just wondering, how much work have you done at legit freeride spots?

 

[ThomRandolph]

I remain optimistic about the possibilities. I'm happy to accept the help and input of anyone who chooses to do so. Like everyone else, those with specialized knowledge can choose to participate or not. That area needs our help; it's pretty clear MTB riders want to use the area; the Church wants to work with us. If the evidence so far of those things is not enough to convince them, well, only time will tell....

And speaking of time....I'm going to be nearly completely away from the computer for about three weeks. I'll check in when I can. For those interested, we're planning to have a work party in early October to clean up the area and start discussing what's to be done next. All are welcome, even those adamantly opposed to this entire project.

Regards to all,

Thom

 

[Skookum]

Thats just stupid. No builder likes seeing their trails get torn down, but I don't think people are cool with kissing ass to a church. I know I'm not.

-James.

Haha let jeebus into your heart, or the crazy horse lady will take over your soul and possess you. You'll spend the rest of your days wandering into feed stores like a zombie, ripping bags of oats open and feeding until the store owners kick you out.

i've already said way too much stuff that makes sense, so i'm just down for honkin for fonk from here on out....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/ItWpoUMbqJE&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/ItWpoUMbqJE&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

 

[Skookum]

haha i thought vern fonk was stupid...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/O4-e4nlfdRI&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/O4-e4nlfdRI&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

 

[smurr]

Thats just stupid. No builder likes seeing their trails get torn down, but I don't think people are cool with kissing ass to a church. I know I'm not.

-James.

to 97% of those on this forum this is not for you.

I guess I just dont get the thinking.
I buy a piece of property

The county requires me to treat it a certain way

Someone decides they want to use it for their pleasure

They dont ask but that take the liberty to remove all the top soil to build things for their pleasure also using trees that will take years to replace.

Then create a huge liability for me the owner.

Owners sees this work that has been done on this property and decides they dont want the property used this way so they remove it.

Lets see how this makes sense. The land owner is the bad guy because he doesnt want to allow a liability but the trespasser and builder is the good guy victim.
Heres what wierder
The the owner says maybe there is a responsible way that we could create a workable solution, offers to cordinate a work party to repair the damaged enviroment they didnt destroy, offers to review proposals to build a legit course, is willing to look at grant possibilities from the county, and agrees to let any offense go away and he is the bad guy and anyone that wants to help is kissing ass.

Interesting logic. better wear a helmet next time :huh:

Anyway I realize most you guys dont think this way but its guys like this that Yarrow Bay, Plum Creek, King County worry about when they hear bikers want to use their property. In encourage you guys to police guys like this out of the equasion so your sport can be enjoyed freely.

Thank you all that have offered to help us with the restoration process.

still open

steve murray

 

[PsychO!1]

to 97% of those on this forum this is not for you.

I guess I just dont get the thinking..........

steve murray

See my post above Steve.

you see.....It's all about image, and the image of an 'outlaw' is much cooler than the image 'kiss ass' who is working with the 'establishment' to legitimize their hardcore image.

 

[dbirds2]

I remember a time 30+ years ago when you could pretty much do anything in the woods in eastern king county. I have watched the entire region go to hell in a handbag. First thing they took was woods to play in, second thing was moto riding, third thing was places to throw big keg parties, fourth was little non populated hills for off roading trucks. I guess people just dont want others to have fun in the woods. Maybe thats why are youth in general are lazy, overweight video game players because they just dont have the access to close fun in the outdoors, like eastern king county did in my youth. There is just too many people, houses, and new whatever going up and people generally dont care. Anything to make people a little lazier. Peoples greed and there need for more is the reason for the world's short comings. I am as guilty as charged, but slowly changing my perspectives in life. I am only hoping for places, where I can do what I want in the woods without someone always messing with me. Until then I will continue to search for the ultimate freeride line. Later