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T is for Tookie, that's good enough for me....

Damn True

Monkey Pimp
Sep 10, 2001
4,016
3
Between a rock and a hard place.
So should der guvinator commute his sentance or what?


Personally, I couldn't care less if the guy wrote 1000 kids books, and the Nobel nomination means nothing. If somoene wanted to, they could by rule nominate Pol-Pot for the peace prize just as easilly.

Funny how the Hollywood dorks find it so terrible to end the life of a vicious killer yet have no problem with doing the same thing to an innocent child.
 

ohio

The Fresno Kid
Nov 26, 2001
6,638
4
SF, CA
Damn True said:
Personally, I couldn't care less if the guy wrote 1000 kids books, and the Nobel nomination means nothing. If somoene wanted to, they could by rule nominate Pol-Pot for the peace prize just as easilly.
So do you think he deserves to die?
 

Ciaran

Fear my banana
Apr 5, 2004
9,844
11
So Cal
Tough question you ask, there.

Personally until I can bring someone back to life I feel that I have no business killing them. Who am I (or any of you) to judge who should live or die?

I don't condone what he did.
 

blt2ride

Turbo Monkey
May 25, 2005
2,334
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Chatsworth
ohio said:
So do you think he deserves to die?
Writing some kids' books doesn't take away from what he did. He was convicted of killing 4 people; however, one could only imagine all of terrrible things he did that he was never held accountable for. Tookie and one of his friends started one of the most violent street gangs in all of Southern California.

Snoop Dogg has been publicly defending Tookie over the past year. It's also a well known fact that Snoop used to run with the crips before he became a crap (I mean rap) star. I was watching a protest last night on the news, and a majority of the people who showed up were a bunch of gangsters, wearing all their blue rags, hats, etc.

Nonetheless, as it sits right now, Tookie is going to be executed as planned.
 

sanjuro

Tube Smuggler
Sep 13, 2004
17,411
0
SF
I should point out if Arnold commutes his sentence, it won't be on the streets, but just life in jail...
 

ohio

The Fresno Kid
Nov 26, 2001
6,638
4
SF, CA
blt2ride said:
Writing some kids' books doesn't take away from what he did.
I didn't say that it did. I have no problem with the death penalty as punishment (I do take issue with the Death Penalty as implemented in our justice system, but that's a separate issue). I'm asking DT if he thinks Tookie deserves to die.
 

kidwoo

Celebrating No-Pants Day
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ohio said:
I didn't say that it did. I have no problem with the death penalty as punishment (I do take issue with the Death Penalty as implemented in our justice system, but that's a separate issue). I'm asking DT if he thinks Tookie deserves to die.
I got the boat, the rods and the beer cooler........looks like you've got the bait.
 

Changleen

Paranoid Member
Jan 9, 2004
9,890
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Yup.

Seriously, way to spin what I said. :D There's a difference between 'weak' and 'needing 24hr care, painkillers, breathing assistance and multiple surgeries to live'.
 

LordOpie

MOTHER HEN
Oct 17, 2002
21,027
3
Denver
Changleen said:
Yup.

Seriously, way to spin what I said. :D There's a difference between 'weak' and 'needing 24hr care, painkillers, breathing assistance and multiple surgeries to live'.
so, wait, it's okay to kill off the extremely disabled, but not homocidal psychos?

I guess that's the solution... get the killers to off the weak.
 

Changleen

Paranoid Member
Jan 9, 2004
9,890
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LordOpie said:
so, wait, it's okay to kill off the extremely disabled, but not homocidal psychos?

I guess that's the solution... get the killers to off the weak.
It's about sentience and perception. Both cases minimise harm to sentient beings. How would you like to live in permanent agony, only able to survive due to constant medical intervention?
 

ohio

The Fresno Kid
Nov 26, 2001
6,638
4
SF, CA
kidwoo said:
I got the boat, the rods and the beer cooler........looks like you've got the bait.
Dude, how's the storm up there? I'm dying right now, because I NEED to ski but I'm heading to Boston saturday morning...
 

kidwoo

Celebrating No-Pants Day
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ohio said:
Dude, how's the storm up there? I'm dying right now, because I NEED to ski but I'm heading to Boston saturday morning...
It's been raining mostly. 2 days of wet snow but about 4 of rain at lake level. If it were snowing there would be about 4-5 feet at lake level. That said, everything above about 7500 is kickin'. Alpine opens tomorrow.
 

kidwoo

Celebrating No-Pants Day
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Changleen said:
Yup.

Seriously, way to spin what I said. :D There's a difference between 'weak' and 'needing 24hr care, painkillers, breathing assistance and multiple surgeries to live'.

Was't trying to spin what you said as much as it really does seem like a contradiction to me. Where does down syndrome fall? How do you determine "suffering" in someone who knows no other life?
 

LordOpie

MOTHER HEN
Oct 17, 2002
21,027
3
Denver
Changleen said:
It's about sentience and perception. Both cases minimise harm to sentient beings. How would you like to live in permanent agony, only able to survive due to constant medical intervention?
wait, are you advocating the state to make those decisions or just the right of patients to make it?

No matter how horrible life is, I wouldn't want someone else to make that decision for me.
 

kidwoo

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LordOpie said:
wait, are you advocating the state to make those decisions or just the right of patients to make it?

No matter how horrible life is, I wouldn't want someone else to make that decision for me.
Not even the president in a special late night executive order overriding state rulings?

I'd be honored.:love:
 

Changleen

Paranoid Member
Jan 9, 2004
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LordOpie said:
wait, are you advocating the state to make those decisions or just the right of patients to make it?

No matter how horrible life is, I wouldn't want someone else to make that decision for me.
I should think there should be a line under which it would be judged illegally cruel to keep people alive and a second line under which you'd want to give the choice to the parents. Downs syndrome is probably outside of both of those lines, or arguably in the top end of the second one.
 

LordOpie

MOTHER HEN
Oct 17, 2002
21,027
3
Denver
Changleen said:
I should think there should be a line under which it would be judged illegally cruel to keep people alive and a second line under which you'd want to give the choice to the parents. Downs syndrome is probably outside of both of those lines, or arguably in the top end of the second one.
Are you talking about Teri Schiavo-type situations?

That's what living-wills are for and parents/legal guardians for those under 18yo.

I don't want my govt involved in such a decision, except to the extent of enforcing the individuals wishes.

However, if you're talking about a situation where someone has no one to make that decision, well, that's sticky.
 

Changleen

Paranoid Member
Jan 9, 2004
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Um, I was thinking about very serious, very early childhood defects specifically, but I suppose TS would qualify as a parental choice type situation in my book. However, in a situation where all doctors recommend letting her go, and the parents want to keep her alive, the cost is squarely on their shoulders.

I agree in most cases I wouldn't want the Government making these decisions, except for helping define my lines in the first place, but I'd feel much better about a small panel of Doctors making these sorts of choices.
 

manimal

Ociffer Tackleberry
Feb 27, 2002
7,214
14
Blindly running into cactus
Echo said:
So the whole forgiveness and repenting thing is right out the window.

if you want to bring the "thou shall not kill"/"repentance" bit into it, you might want to do some reading.

"it's up to God to judge/punish"....well, biblically speaking, what has God used to judge/punish throughout history? man. whether it be through some form of judicial system or an army totally obliterating an enemy. it cannot be disputed that the old testament of the Bible has many, many, references to God's judgement and punishment being dealt out through man.

so be for it or against it, but the "capital punishment is a biblical contradiction" argument is bunk.

now, i believe in the death penalty but i do agree that there are some flaws in our judicial system that should be a cause for concern.
 

JRogers

talks too much
Mar 19, 2002
3,789
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Claremont, CA
manimal said:
so be for it or against it, but the "capital punishment is a biblical contradiction" argument is bunk.
For every bit of support you find for that, I could find one to refute it. It is not so simple and should not be presented as such. It is a matter of interpretation, not irrefutible fact.
 

Echo

crooked smile
Jul 10, 2002
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manimal said:
if you want to bring the "thou shall not kill"/"repentance" bit into it, you might want to do some reading.

"it's up to God to judge/punish"....well, biblically speaking, what has God used to judge/punish throughout history? man. whether it be through some form of judicial system or an army totally obliterating an enemy. it cannot be disputed that the old testament of the Bible has many, many, references to God's judgement and punishment being dealt out through man.

so be for it or against it, but the "capital punishment is a biblical contradiction" argument is bunk.

now, i believe in the death penalty but i do agree that there are some flaws in our judicial system that should be a cause for concern.
So is it your opinion that criminals cannot benefit from being in a correctional institution? That a teenager who made some REALLY bad choices cannot realize the errors of his ways and make a genuine effort to atone for his sins and make the world a better place? If that's your line of thinking, why not just kill everyone who is in jail for violent crime? Killing "Tookie" is nothing but a revenge killing disguised as justice, and the only thing it accomplishes is it gives gangs a reason to seek their own revenge. Killing him is feeding the viscious cycle. But I guess it keeps the cops and the courts busy.
 

manimal

Ociffer Tackleberry
Feb 27, 2002
7,214
14
Blindly running into cactus
Echo said:
So is it your opinion that criminals cannot benefit from being in a correctional institution? That a teenager who made some REALLY bad choices cannot realize the errors of his ways and make a genuine effort to atone for his sins and make the world a better place? If that's your line of thinking, why not just kill everyone who is in jail for violent crime? Killing "Tookie" is nothing but a revenge killing disguised as justice, and the only thing it accomplishes is it gives gangs a reason to seek their own revenge. Killing him is feeding the viscious cycle. But I guess it keeps the cops and the courts busy.

i wasn't debating anything other than justification for the death penalty. you were making a reference to the ignorant view that repentance and forgiveness means that earthly consequences are somehow stricken too. whether he's guilty or not or deserves it or not i don't know. i was just defending the death penalty....for those who need it.

and no....statistically speaking, jails do not rehabilitate. criminals come out better criminals after doing time.
 

Echo

crooked smile
Jul 10, 2002
11,818
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manimal said:
and no....statistically speaking, jails do not rehabilitate. criminals come out better criminals after doing time.
And that's kind of my point. We're looking at an extremely rare case where it appears that jail really did rehabilitate someone. And we're ignoring it. It's not like he's looking to rejoin society. Keeping him in jail the rest of his life, and the notoriety he has achieved for his turning his life around, could actually benefit other prisoners.
 

ohio

The Fresno Kid
Nov 26, 2001
6,638
4
SF, CA
manimal said:
it cannot be disputed that the old testament of the Bible has many, many, references to God's judgement and punishment being dealt out through man.
And it cannot be disputed that the new testament has many many references to to importance of forgiveness. Trying to claim the Bible justifies the death penalty is even more ridiculous than claiming that it forbids it. Face it, the Bible tells people what they want to hear. Some people are predisposed to a disciplinarian world view, others are predisposed to a nurturant world view. Give each of them the same situation or the same peice of scripture and you will get opposite results.

Just own up and admit that you want this guy dead, not God.
 

LordOpie

MOTHER HEN
Oct 17, 2002
21,027
3
Denver
Echo said:
And that's kind of my point. We're looking at an extremely rare case where it appears that jail really did rehabilitate someone. And we're ignoring it. It's not like he's looking to rejoin society. Keeping him in jail the rest of his life, and the notoriety he has achieved for his turning his life around, could actually benefit other prisoners.
:stupid:
 

kidwoo

Celebrating No-Pants Day
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Echo said:
And that's kind of my point. We're looking at an extremely rare case where it appears that jail really did rehabilitate someone. And we're ignoring it. It's not like he's looking to rejoin society. Keeping him in jail the rest of his life, and the notoriety he has achieved for his turning his life around, could actually benefit other prisoners.
Good points but I guess the argument could be made that if he were to go free, others on death row now have a template to follow......genuine in intention or not. Do what tookie did and don't die?
 

fluff

Monkey Turbo
Sep 8, 2001
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kidwoo said:
Good points but I guess the argument could be made that if he were to go free, others on death row now have a template to follow......genuine in intention or not. Do what tookie did and don't die?
If the effects are good does it matter if the intention is motivated by a desire to live rather than a desire to do good?
 

kidwoo

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manimal said:
"it's up to God to judge/punish"....well, biblically speaking, what has God used to judge/punish throughout history? man. whether it be through some form of judicial system or an army totally obliterating an enemy. it cannot be disputed that the old testament of the Bible has many, many, references to God's judgement and punishment being dealt out through man.
.
God told me to tell you to quit speaking for him. He said you sound silly.

He also told me to eliminate your people.

Don't you understand you just stated the opinion of people like bin laden?

No......probably not.
 

kidwoo

Celebrating No-Pants Day
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fluff said:
If the effects are good does it matter if the intention is motivated by a desire to live rather than a desire to do good?
As long as "locked up" is still the alternative and not being released then I guess you're right. Because you could have a desire to live coupled with your ongoing desire to rape and kill 9 year olds which got you there in the first place.

Stay out of society but make some really creative license plates that make the world a better place and you can live.:)
 

fluff

Monkey Turbo
Sep 8, 2001
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kidwoo said:
As long as "locked up" is still the alternative and not being released then I guess you're right. Because you could have a desire to live coupled with your ongoing desire to rape and kill 9 year olds which got you there in the first place.

Stay out of society but make some really creative license plates that make the world a better place and you can live.:)
It would be nice if they could somehow be less of a burden on the tax payer, but basically I agree.
 

ohio

The Fresno Kid
Nov 26, 2001
6,638
4
SF, CA
fluff said:
It would be nice if they could somehow be less of a burden on the tax payer, but basically I agree.
You want to save money in the criminal justice system, build a society that produces fewer criminals.

Sometimes I look at the policies and legislation we're putting in place, and it feels like we're purposefully creating criminals just so we can feel good about punishing them, all the while bitching and maoning about the cost of that punishment.
 

kidwoo

Celebrating No-Pants Day
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ohio said:
You want to save money in the criminal justice system, build a society that produces fewer criminals..
I agree. Public firearms for all. Second menmant derf derf

ohio said:
Sometimes I look at the policies and legislation we're putting in place, and it feels like we're purposefully creating criminals just so we can feel good about punishing them, all the while bitching and maoning about the cost of that punishment.
Man that's probably verbatim to some of the stuff hunter s thompson
said about the education cuts, war on drugs and mega prison building contracts going on during reagans' reign.