[manimal]

And that's kind of my point. We're looking at an extremely rare case where it appears that jail really did rehabilitate someone. And we're ignoring it. It's not like he's looking to rejoin society. Keeping him in jail the rest of his life, and the notoriety he has achieved for his turning his life around, could actually benefit other prisoners.

if someone is sentenced to death row....there is no attempt at rehabilitation. a non-life term is where the rehabilitation can work...why bother if the person is never to leave the walls of the prison? if you commit a crime that is heinous enough for society to condemn you to death then why would it suddenly be less offensive after 20 years and allow for a lesser penalty? humanistic forgiveness can be given by the family of the victim and even society, but that does not take away from the fact that consequences must be dealt. what message does it send to our already weak criminal justice system when we just bluff with the death penalty. if we're going to use it and the person is deserving of it at the time then use it....20 years on death row doesn't make them less deserving of it.

 

[Damn True]

Been posted noob. Try to keep up will ya.

By that logic the mods ought delete all but one of the Religious Hate threads.



And yes, I think cold blooded quadruple murderers who create, support and condone criminal organizations such as the "crips" gang or others like it ought to be sentanced to death........and I think that children who have not commited such crimes against humanity ought not be sentanced to death.

I'm nauseated by the fact that there are people who call themselves human who believe the exact opposite.

 

[Damn True]

....this just occured to me.

What are the odds that if this animal is executed that his cohorts in South Central LA will riot?

 

[Changleen]

And yes, I think cold blooded quadruple murderers who create, support and condone criminal organizations such as the "crips" gang or others like it ought to be sentanced to death

So Bush is going to hang for what he's letting the CIA do?

and I think that children who have not commited such crimes against humanity ought not be sentanced to death.

What children? I don't see any children.

I'm nauseated by the fact that there are people who call themselves human who believe the exact opposite.

Fundy.

 

[Echo]

What are the odds that if this animal is executed that his cohorts in South Central LA will riot?

I'd say about 100%.

And when these rioters kill hundreds of innocent people who would have otherwise lived happy lives, and nobody is arrested or prosecuted for those murders because it is damn near impossible to figure out who did what during a riot, will Tookie's death still be justice? Or is it just a viscious cycle of revenge? When will it end?

And this has nothing to do with abortion.

 

[LordOpie]

I'd say about 100%.

And when these rioters kill hundreds of innocent people who would have otherwise lived happy lives, and nobody is arrested or prosecuted for those murders because it is damn near impossible to figure out who did what during a riot, will Tookie's death still be justice? Or is it just a viscious cycle of revenge? When will it end?

And this has nothing to do with abortion.

yes, but then the terrorists win!!!

 

[Andyman_1970]

Interesting article on Mr. Tookie...........

Redemption on trial in California
by David Batstone


One man, Stanley "Tookie" Williams, faces execution Tuesday, Dec. 13, at San Quentin State Prison in California. With him our belief in human redemption also sits on the gallows, pending a decision in the clemency hearing conducted by Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger.

Williams, a founder of the notorious Crips gang, is charged with the murder of four people in the Los Angeles area in 1979. At the time of the trial, he proclaimed his innocence, a position he maintains today. A jury convicted him wholly on circumstantial evidence; in other words, no eyewitnesses or incontrovertible material evidence linked him to the murders, according to attorney Verna Wefald’s appeal.
In one of the robberies that led to a murder, an accomplice was given clemency for pointing his finger at Williams for the murder. Beyond the self-interest involved, the accomplice's reputation as a truth-teller was less than stellar. The prosecution produced a shell casing tied to the murder weapon found at the motel where Williams was staying. But the science that matched the casing to the weapon was speculative and its results have not been revisited in the intervening years, the Los Angeles Times reported.

I revisit the facts of the case because Schwarzenegger's decision to grant Williams clemency will depend more on the possibility of his innocence - or at least the uncertainty of his guilt - than it will turn on the contribution that Williams has made to society over the last two decades.

That's tragic, because Williams has become a major figure in the gang peace movement. He has co-authored 10 books from Death Row. The message is clear: Violence is never a solution. He urges young gang kids to get out before it destroys them and the lives of their family members. That's a powerful message from one of the founders of the Crips.

Williams first made a public plea to hundreds of gang members who gathered at a Los Angeles hotel in 1993 for a summit called Hands Across Watts. He did not hide his early role in the Crips, but on a prerecorded videotape filmed for the summit told the young gang members that he lamented his history. Recounting this first public event to the San Francisco Chronicle, Williams said, "I told them I never thought I could change my life, that I thought I would be a Crip forever. But I developed common sense, wisdom and knowledge. I changed."

Williams has gone on to build on this witness. In his 1998 prison autobiography Life in Prison, he directed young people to seek an alternative life beyond violence. Prison, he stressed, was no place to spend a life. Two years later he launched the Internet Project for Street Peace. His memoir, Blue Rage, Black Redemption, and the movie, Redemption, came out in 2004.

Williams has a bevy of supporters calling for his clemency. They argue that he has changed thousands of young people's lives, and if allowed to live will continue to be a force for good. His street credibility with gang kids is high, so he can reach them in a way that a teacher or social worker cannot.
In the eyes of the criminal justice system, a redeemed criminal is simply another criminal. I recall my first visit to a federal prison back in seminary when starting a prison chaplain residency. The warden of the prison came to the orientation I shared with other interns. His message was clear to us: "I want you to remember that the prison system today is not about reforming criminals. We are here to punish them."

Redemption, in other words, has no place in our justice system. We do not offer a path for conversion. Once marked for condemnation, an offender's destiny is fixed.

Elsewhere in the world, four Christian Peacemaker Teams members are marked for execution by a radical terrorist group in Iraq. The circumstances are dramatically different, so I hesitate to make the connection. We are appalled by the blind ideology that drives the terrorists and leads them to cheapen the value of human life. In this ideology, the individual is a tool for political expediency.

Don't we want to offer our citizens more in a democracy?

 

[blt2ride]

....this just occured to me.

What are the odds that if this animal is executed that his cohorts in South Central LA will riot?

That thought has crossed my mind a few times. Since I live in Los Angeles County, I hope we don't have any problems. I remember watching the 1992 riots on TV--it didn't take too long for them to get completely out of control. Although, this would be quite different--it would be gand related. I seriously doubt any of the local bloods would riot for Tookie's life. Not only would it be a riot, but it would probably turn into a gang war...

I haven’t heard what Arnold’s decision was; today was Tookie Williams’ clemency hearing.

 

[Silver]

By that logic the mods ought delete all but one of the Religious Hate threads.

How's the view from on that cross?

Oh, and to stay on topic, **** Tookie. You helped create the Crips, and you have more than enough blood on your hands for me to sleep easy at night after you die...

 

[rooftest]

I seriously doubt any of the local bloods would riot for Tookie's life....

Well, that's because he was a crip.

But, if he was convicted on such "shaky" evidence, I'm sure that's why none of his appeals ever got anywhere.

 

[sanjuro]

And that's kind of my point. We're looking at an extremely rare case where it appears that jail really did rehabilitate someone. And we're ignoring it. It's not like he's looking to rejoin society. Keeping him in jail the rest of his life, and the notoriety he has achieved for his turning his life around, could actually benefit other prisoners.

I am always against the death penalty, period.

As long we all agree Tookie should spend the rest of his life in jail. While I do think he has reformed, that does not justify his own murder conviction (which the surviving families have spoken against clemency), as well as his part in the creation of the Crips. I am sure there are many murders he was directly or indirectly involved with.

On a different note, I did read in the SF Chronicle how being on Death Row is advantageous on legal standpoint because there are many anti-death penalty lawyers who will fight your conviction. If you are just a lifer, then you cannot expect much legal help.

 

[Tattooo]

EXECUTE TOOKIE WILLIAMS!
EYE FOR AN EYE, A TOOTH FOR A TOOTH!
HOW MANY PEOPLE DID THE CRYPTS EXECUTE?
HANG HIM HIGH!!!

 

[lonewolfe]

Frankly, I think this animal should die like an animal.

 

[ridetoofast]

I am always against the death penalty, period.

As long we all agree Tookie should spend the rest of his life in jail. While I do think he has reformed, that does not justify his own murder conviction (which the surviving families have spoken against clemency), as well as his part in the creation of the Crips. I am sure there are many murders he was directly or indirectly involved with.

On a different note, I did read in the SF Chronicle how being on Death Row is advantageous on legal standpoint because there are many anti-death penalty lawyers who will fight your conviction. If you are just a lifer, then you cannot expect much legal help.

really?

so if some thug kidnapped, beat, raped, and killed your mother you'd still let'm slide huh?

if he is redeemed why has he not shown any remorse, claims innonence, and refuses to turn in other memebers.

fvck that pos, kill him and get it over with

 

[firetoole]

seems like this decision was taken care of along time ago in court

 

[JRogers]

really?

so if some thug kidnapped, beat, raped, and killed your mother you'd still let'm slide huh?

if he is redeemed why has he not shown any remorse, claims innonence, and refuses to turn in other memebers.

fvck that pos, kill him and get it over with

I cannot answer for sanjuro, but I agreee with his sentiment. I am against the death penalty under all circumstances. Yes, if all those things were done, I would still be against it. And even if the passion of it got the better of me, I would have to consider myself a poor judge in the trial of my mother's killer- that's why judges are to remain impartial and not have a conflict of interest.

I often read about crimes where I would want the criminal to die, but I refuse to be taken into pressing for their death. It's an emotional vs. an intellectual and virtuous reaction.

 

[blt2ride]

really?

so if some thug kidnapped, beat, raped, and killed your mother you'd still let'm slide huh?

if he is redeemed why has he not shown any remorse, claims innonence, and refuses to turn in other memebers.

fvck that pos, kill him and get it over with

The news just reported that the California Supreme Court, working special hours to address the Toolie Williams' case, has refused to step-in to stop Williams' execution. At this point, it's ALL up to Arnold. Meanwhile, the LAPD is gearing up for any problems--it's going to be interesting to see what happens. At this point, Tookie is still claiming that he is innocent...

 

[manimal]

....this just occured to me.

What are the odds that if this animal is executed that his cohorts in South Central LA will riot?

odds are high that they will riot, however, it will not be like '92. i've seen LAPD's current civil disorder/riot plan and they're not screwing around. some people WILL be hurt.

 

[blt2ride]

odds are high that they will riot, however, it will not be like '92. i've seen LAPD's current civil disorder/riot plan and they're not screwing around. some people WILL be hurt.

That's what I'm thinking. I'm sure there will be some protests, and some of those protests will get a bit out of control. However, it won't be like the '92 mess...

 

[Echo]

fvck that pos, kill him and get it over with

I still haven't heard anyone define what that will solve.

 

[MTB_Rob_NC]

I still haven't heard anyone define what that will solve.

It would end this debate wouldnt it?

 

[blt2ride]

I still haven't heard anyone define what that will solve.

I'm going to say that his victims' families can take some comfort knowing that the person who destroyed their lives paid the ultimate price for what he did.

 

[MTB_Rob_NC]

I'm going to say that his victims' families can take some comfort knowing that the person who destroyed their lives paid the ultimate price for what he did.

Whatever, my answer was better

 

[blt2ride]

Whatever, my answer was better

Yeah, I agree. Both answers are correct.

 

[Echo]

I'm going to say that his victims' families can take some comfort knowing that the person who destroyed their lives paid the ultimate price for what he did.

So basically it's revenge.

 

[Ciaran]

I still haven't heard anyone define what that will solve.

That's because it doesn't solve ANYTHING.

Execution does not serve justice, it only serves revenge. And if one thinks "eye for an eye" is "justice" then one has alot to learn.

 

[stinkyboy]

I am the Lord thy God. Thou shalt not have strange gods before me.

Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain

Remember thou keep the Sabbath Day.

Honor thy Father and thy Mother

Thou shalt not kill.

Thou shalt not commit adultery.

Thou shalt not steal.

Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife.

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's goods.

 

[rooftest]

odds are high that they will riot, however, it will not be like '92. i've seen LAPD's current civil disorder/riot plan and they're not screwing around. some people WILL be hurt.

Yeah - the LAPD learned their lessons from the "Laker riots" I was working in downtown LA during the Democratic Convention in '00, and the LAPD was kicking some serious ass!

 

[manimal]

I am the Lord thy God. Thou shalt not have strange gods before me.

Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain

Remember thou keep the Sabbath Day.

Honor thy Father and thy Mother

Thou shalt not kill.

Thou shalt not commit adultery.

Thou shalt not steal.

Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife.

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's goods.

incorrect....original translation reads: THOU SHALT NOT MURDER.

this has been grossly mistranslated through the years.

 

[Andyman_1970]

incorrect....original translation reads: THOU SHALT NOT MURDER.

this has been grossly mistranslated through the years.

True but Jesus takes that further and says how we are to love unconditionally our enemy and the whole "turn the other cheek" deal......not to mention the whole deal of holding all human life sacred, even the life of criminals.....

 

[I Are Baboon]

I think Brick should throw a trident at him.

 

[N8 v2.0]

Is he dead yet?

 

[ohio]

incorrect....original translation reads: THOU SHALT NOT MURDER.

this has been grossly mistranslated through the years.

Main Entry: 1mur·der
Pronunciation: 'm&r-d&r
Function: noun
1 : the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought

So the only thing that makes this NOT murder is that fact that it is not illegal. Humans made the death penalty allowable law, not God. So really we have no idea if the death penalty violates the commandment.

Again, I wish people would just admit it. They want him dead. They want vengeance. The reasons he should/will/must die are neither justified nor vilified by God or the Bible.

 

[blt2ride]

Is he dead yet?

If Arnold doesn't grant him clemency, Tookie's execution will take place at 12:01 a.m. pacific standard time...

 

[N8 v2.0]

9th Court rejects his stay.....

However Jessie Jackson is on the case.

 

[fluff]

What bunch of ghouls some of you are...

 

[N8 v2.0]

Tookie reaps what he's sown....

 

[fluff]

Some of what he's sown...

 

[captainpolution]

t is for tookie
d is for dead
y is for yay

 

[N8 v2.0]

The only injustice I see is that the BTK killer automaticly gets a life sentence because there was no death penality when he killed all those people. Same with the Green River Killer. Ted Bundy on the other hand..... zzzzzzzzzzzaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaapppppppppp!