[manimal]

But looking a little deeper.....so why do you do the job? Because of a burning desire to keep the public safe, or because you get a rush from giving a bad guy a beat down? Or both?

close. here's why i do the job:

i was in your shoes about my opinion of the police for most of my life. then, after getting out the marines and working some mind numbing cubicle farm jobs i realized that i was going to have to do something more challenging (mentally/physically) before i went nuts.
i'd watch COPS on occassion and it seemed like a pretty fun job that allowed for me to continue my desire to "protect the weak" so i petitioned my wife to let me go for it. long story short she was hesitant at first but we were broke and the cop job payed a little more than what i was making.

so that's why i went for the job, out of a desire for something exciting where i could put my military training to use for the betterment of the community. (i've always been the one to keep my friends from getting into a fight or stepping in if someone was being taken advantage of/bullied)

now that i've been in it for 6 years i've realized that i will be making a career out of it because i love it. yes, part of the fun of the job is the adrenaline from running to hot calls but i really do enjoy the interaction with a side of the population that most people know nothing about. what other job would allow me to chase a drug dealer on my bike one day, stop a rape in progress the next, and attend a community meeting another day to provide input on how to better involve single parents with their kids via community center programs.
so yes, mmike.. you are right. i do enjoy putting the smack down on criminals who prey on weaker people...if the criminal asks for it at that time. (i don't go around instigating fights if that's what you're insinuatiing.)
and i also like the community relations aspect of the job as well. when i come home from work everyday i feel like i did something to better society, whether it was getting another dealer off the street, helping a family deal with a troubled teen, or arresting a wife beater. sometimes i have to use force to protect others but i'm ok with that and society as a whole understands and expects that. some people are just uneasy with the fact that, in order for us to keep the wolves from the sheep, we have to show our teeth from time to time.

 

[manimal]

You do it exactly how you did it (or with a tazer). Mmike's point wasn't your actions but your attitude. You were super stoked you had the opportunity to kick some scumbag's ass, and you're one of the good ones. How many cops are a little more broad in their definition of "scumbag" and are looking forward to having an excuse to kick anyone's ass?

In an ideal world, you'd hand out the beat-down grudgingly and hope you never had to do it again.

I'm not saying that's possible. I'm a pretty huge pussy, and I even I remember how great it felt to win a wrestling match - better than winning any other sport I ever played. But I do see Mmike's point.

oh...i see how that could come across as "i kicked some thug's ass" but i never meant for it to sound that way. that was one of my first real fights on the street and i was just expressing the emotions i had for coming out alive and unscathed. i was still considered a rookie back then so that was my affirmation i suppose.

so i hope my previous post sums up why i do what i do and i definitely don't want you guys to think that i'm out patrolling for a beatdown. i just want you guys to understand why force is often necessary in this line of work. i apologize if i came across as trying to be an internet badass....my goal in posting these war stories is to provide some humanity to a job that most people only know from tv or speeding tickets.

 

[Defenestrated]

Come on manimal, you must know swaths of power loving cops, the authority must be attractive, to say that it isn't would be naive.

 

[manimal]

Come on manimal, you must know swaths of power loving cops, the authority must be attractive, to say that it isn't would be naive.

i've seen a few pass through the halls but, at my department at least, they're weeded out pretty quickly. there are definitely different personality types but i have not and will not work with someone who abuses their power. again, the few instances that have occurred have been taken care of.

 

[JohnE]

In my world (Military LE) we see the power hungry small dick types all the time. The guys that exceed 100 mph in pursuit of possible speeders, who admit to wanting to shoot someone "just to see what its like", beat their wife, sister and neighbors wife after getting caught schtupping the neighbor at a party, then lock the doors and refuse to let them or anyone else leave (Same guy got caught at the Mex. border with steroids...)...the list goes on and on. Small people with axes to grind, issues to work out, unfulfilling personal lives. Guys like the jailer.
A good fight is a free adrenaline rush...a fight done right is priceless. A 15 year old girl is not a good fight...and that clown is going to lose his ass, and hopefully have a few holes poked in it in the hoosegow...

 

[sanjuro]

BTW, I watched some of the interview on CBS. I thought that girl had a horrible attitude, like arguing with the police. But running your mouth shouldn't mean you get beaten up.

Frankly, I thinking being locked up in a jail cell should be scary enough for a 15 year old.

 

[manimal]

i've met some hardcore 15 yr olds that would make manson look like an alterboy. our crime statistics last year showed that 80% of all violent robberies in our city were committed by 15-18 yr olds.

 

[manimal]

In my world (Military LE) we see the power hungry small dick types all the time.

ah yes...i remember the type. the funny thing is that most MP's don't pass our psych test. i suppose the quality of our recruiters and our recruiting standards makes a huge difference in what type of people we get. peer pressure also helps keep the ego's in check. if the command staff won't stand for that type of behavior and our training officers are keyed in to pick up on those indicators then that is one step closer to maintaining a professional workforce. of all the "something to prove" jocks that i have seen come through the hiring process, most don't make it through our field training program.

 

[$tinkle]

i've met some hardcore 15 yr olds that would make manson look like an alterboy. our crime statistics last year showed that 80% of all violent robberies in our city were committed by 15-18 yr olds.

this may mean 2 things: they haven't learned the art of getting away w/ crime, and/or you get killed/locked up in your 20's+

 

[JohnE]

ah yes...i remember the type. the funny thing is that most MP's don't pass our psych test. i suppose the quality of our recruiters and our recruiting standards makes a huge difference in what type of people we get. peer pressure also helps keep the ego's in check. if the command staff won't stand for that type of behavior and our training officers are keyed in to pick up on those indicators then that is one step closer to maintaining a professional workforce. of all the "something to prove" jocks that i have seen come through the hiring process, most don't make it through our field training program.

You guys must have interesting standards and a pretty strong corporate ego. Four of the last five guys who worked for me had job offers before discharge ( 2 LAPD, one CHP and one Oregon State) and I just did a character reference for the other one for Chicago PD.
But for every one decent guy, we get one idiot and one guy whos recruiter screwed him over or was lied to by the AF (Not so much...).

 

[MikeD]

you still had all of your standard issue gear on you, but you just chose to go "man to man". To me that just seems indicative of something.

So during taser threads, everyone wants to know why cops use them instead of going hands-on. Now you want to know why he chose NOT to use a weapon or chemical irritant and imply he's somehow mentally or morally defective for doing violence with his hands instead.

His job is, in part, to be ready, willing, and able to do violence on the behalf of the public. You've made it very clear that you abhor violence and all those who do it, can do it, want to do it, or consider doing it, so we're never going to come to a point where you're comfortable with cops. That's fine. Just don't try to keep getting the cops to explain themselves, methods, or mentalities to you, because you're just never going to get it.

Skilled cops may find ways to avoid violence. Experienced cops usually will, because fights hurt. But that doesn't mean a cop is ever morally, much less legally, obliged to find a non-violent solution when presented with a violent situation. Morally and legally, in fact, a cop is obliged to outstrip in violence a subject who presents a danger to himself or others, or resistance to legitimate authority.

This doesn't excuse cops who are bad people, corrupt people, or intentionally do something which violates the law or the general moral right. The guy in this video sure seems to be one of these bad people from what the vid shows us. I know there's more to any story than what a single video tells, but I can't conceive of any possible mitigation.

(That said, I've seen enough to know that I may not be things which exist of which I am unable to conceive...)

 

[kidwoo]

So during taser threads, everyone wants to know why cops use them instead of going hands-on. Now you want to know why he chose NOT to use a weapon or chemical irritant and imply he's somehow mentally or morally defective for doing violence with his hands instead.

Find one of those where the tazed was being physically confrontational.....and I mean 'ready to fight' confrontational.

Yeah I caught the irony too but then immediately realized my error.


Also my in new vocabulary: "blade off"

 

[$tinkle]

Also my in new vocabulary: "blade off"

don't forget: "take a slash" - VB

 

[manimal]

You guys must have interesting standards and a pretty strong corporate ego. Four of the last five guys who worked for me had job offers before discharge ( 2 LAPD, one CHP and one Oregon State) and I just did a character reference for the other one for Chicago PD.
But for every one decent guy, we get one idiot and one guy whos recruiter screwed him over or was lied to by the AF (Not so much...).

i don't know if it's our hiring standards as much as it is our FTO program. if you can make it through 16 weeks of micromanagement over every little thing you do then you'll probably do ok. but the beauty of it is that officers in field training don't require the process given to non-probationary employees. in other words, if a bad apple slips through the cracks of recruiting, they are quickly plucked and tossed out in field training.

i realize how lucky we are every time i go to training with outside agencies. where most departments train once or twice annually on the state mandated course only, we train monthly on both the state mandated requirements as well as additional defensive tactics, legal updates, ethics...etc. even if we hire some of the bad apples, the corporate mentality ,ie: peer pressure, from officers that don't want to make case law persuades and subdues the totalitarian ego of the bad apples.

 

[JohnE]

i don't know if it's our hiring standards as much as it is our FTO program. if you can make it through 16 weeks of micromanagement over every little thing you do then you'll probably do ok. but the beauty of it is that officers in field training don't require the process given to non-probationary employees. in other words, if a bad apple slips through the cracks of recruiting, they are quickly plucked and tossed out in field training.

i realize how lucky we are every time i go to training with outside agencies. where most departments train once or twice annually on the state mandated course only, we train monthly on both the state mandated requirements as well as additional defensive tactics, legal updates, ethics...etc. even if we hire some of the bad apples, the corporate mentality ,ie: peer pressure, from officers that don't want to make case law persuades and subdues the totalitarian ego of the bad apples.

It is good that you (seem to...) have management backing for your FTO program. I was an FTO as a civilian PO, and we were essentially told that nothing short of a forceable felony commited on duty would get someone tossed. After all the headache and butt ache of hiring someone, the attitude was that we have invested in this, so you need to fix it...

 

[manimal]

oh man...that's gotta suck. i had one booted for lying. i placed a pocket knife under the backseat after a prisoner got out and then asked the recruit if he checked the backseat. he said yes (although i know he didn't). i sent him back to check it again, he found the knife, put it in his pocket and denied finding it. his daily report was about 2 pages long in the negative. that incident along with some officer safety issues and he was sent packing. if you don't have your integrity in this job you have nothing...especially in court.

 

[MMike]

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2008807012_webvideo03m.html

DOJ is on the job.....

 

[sanjuro]

i don't know if it's our hiring standards as much as it is our FTO program. if you can make it through 16 weeks of micromanagement over every little thing you do then you'll probably do ok. but the beauty of it is that officers in field training don't require the process given to non-probationary employees. in other words, if a bad apple slips through the cracks of recruiting, they are quickly plucked and tossed out in field training.

i realize how lucky we are every time i go to training with outside agencies. where most departments train once or twice annually on the state mandated course only, we train monthly on both the state mandated requirements as well as additional defensive tactics, legal updates, ethics...etc. even if we hire some of the bad apples, the corporate mentality ,ie: peer pressure, from officers that don't want to make case law persuades and subdues the totalitarian ego of the bad apples.

All I know is that I won't be dealing any drugs in High Point. I'll just keep moving onto Greensboro with my crack and meth.

 

[Defenestrated]

So during taser threads, everyone wants to know why cops use them instead of going hands-on. Now you want to know why he chose NOT to use a weapon or chemical irritant and imply he's somehow mentally or morally defective for doing violence with his hands instead.

His job is, in part, to be ready, willing, and able to do violence on the behalf of the public. You've made it very clear that you abhor violence and all those who do it, can do it, want to do it, or consider doing it, so we're never going to come to a point where you're comfortable with cops. That's fine. Just don't try to keep getting the cops to explain themselves, methods, or mentalities to you, because you're just never going to get it.

Skilled cops may find ways to avoid violence. Experienced cops usually will, because fights hurt. But that doesn't mean a cop is ever morally, much less legally, obliged to find a non-violent solution when presented with a violent situation. Morally and legally, in fact, a cop is obliged to outstrip in violence a subject who presents a danger to himself or others, or resistance to legitimate authority.

This doesn't excuse cops who are bad people, corrupt people, or intentionally do something which violates the law or the general moral right. The guy in this video sure seems to be one of these bad people from what the vid shows us. I know there's more to any story than what a single video tells, but I can't conceive of any possible mitigation.

(That said, I've seen enough to know that I may not be things which exist of which I am unable to conceive...)

Basically all of the tazer threads involve either a non-violent or crippled individual?

 

[kidwoo]

i'd watch COPS on occassion and it seemed like a pretty fun job that allowed for me to continue my desire to "protect the weak"

Would you have become a cop if the tv show wasn't around?


Man just think about the timing. You could have been having adventures right along side Face, Hannibal and B.A. Baracus!

edit: and Murdock!

Man that Murdock.....he so crazee

 

[manimal]

Would you have become a cop if the tv show wasn't around?


Man just think about the timing. You could have been having adventures right along side Face, Hannibal and B.A. Baracus!

edit: and Murdock!

Man that Murdock.....he so crazee

probably...i had a lot of interaction with the po-po until i was about 23 or so. it was the only job i could think of that had the structure of the military minus the year long deployments...the show just glamorized it; although now i hate to watch it because i spend the whole show yelling at the cops like a football fanatic yells at the coach during the superbowl.

 

[$tinkle]

Basically all of the tazer threads involve either a non-violent or crippled individual?

you mean: "as a result"



also, don't forget LEOs who voluntarily test-drive it

 

[manimal]

you mean: "as a result"



also, don't forget LEOs who voluntarily test-drive it

or LEO's who involuntarily test drive their partners

http://www.rambo-mtb.org/blog/index.php?/archives/250-RAMBO-3-ways-in-a-day-Time-Trail-March-28th.html