Team vs WC
- Thread starter Kntr
- Start date
i own totem solo-air/coil, and have owned lyrik solo-air, and u-turn with extensive time on all of them in the last two season,
with solo-air, leaking is not really an issue, my totem solo-air o-rings are still working fine after 2 seasons of whistler, and shore.
In addition, solo-air does make a pretty big difference in weight when on a bike.
The spring rate is also very easy to tune, consistent for local mountain riding, and easy to service.
Having said that, there are cons to the system.
1. the fork ramps up differently than a coil, it's not very linear, it seems to blow out easily with proper sag, which forces you to run higher pressure, which gives you great bottom-out resistance, and overall ramp, but you suffer in small-bump sensitivity.
I noticed this greatly on the solo-air lyrik, where i would run the maximum recommended air pressure to get proper bottom out control, and to prevent dive, but you lose very significant portion of small bump absorption.
Totem does have a much better ramp because of the volume, so i would suspect the new boxxer to be about the same.
2. second is stiction, pretty much having a solo-air feels like you have alot more compression/rebound in a bad way. literally feels like you're bouncing on a balloon, opposed to an independent spring, and independent damping system, which is not good in my books.
3. inconsistency, on long runs at the park, the chamber will heat up, and you will get slightly more preload than desired, but this is manageable.
My biggest beef is, If the day is hot, you will get more preload than desired, and when it's cold, you get like 50% sag out of nowhere, which is not good at all.
Overall, if you want to ride long intense, and where performance is significant. eg:downhill, i'd definitely get the coil any day of the week.
For all-mountain, or cross country, or even full-on freeriding, solo-air is good.
in short:
solo-air feels vague, and you're damping becomes dull-ed out.
with coil, it feels more sharp, consistent, but you may run more compression.
with solo-air, leaking is not really an issue, my totem solo-air o-rings are still working fine after 2 seasons of whistler, and shore.
In addition, solo-air does make a pretty big difference in weight when on a bike.
The spring rate is also very easy to tune, consistent for local mountain riding, and easy to service.
Having said that, there are cons to the system.
1. the fork ramps up differently than a coil, it's not very linear, it seems to blow out easily with proper sag, which forces you to run higher pressure, which gives you great bottom-out resistance, and overall ramp, but you suffer in small-bump sensitivity.
I noticed this greatly on the solo-air lyrik, where i would run the maximum recommended air pressure to get proper bottom out control, and to prevent dive, but you lose very significant portion of small bump absorption.
Totem does have a much better ramp because of the volume, so i would suspect the new boxxer to be about the same.
2. second is stiction, pretty much having a solo-air feels like you have alot more compression/rebound in a bad way. literally feels like you're bouncing on a balloon, opposed to an independent spring, and independent damping system, which is not good in my books.
3. inconsistency, on long runs at the park, the chamber will heat up, and you will get slightly more preload than desired, but this is manageable.
My biggest beef is, If the day is hot, you will get more preload than desired, and when it's cold, you get like 50% sag out of nowhere, which is not good at all.
Overall, if you want to ride long intense, and where performance is significant. eg:downhill, i'd definitely get the coil any day of the week.
For all-mountain, or cross country, or even full-on freeriding, solo-air is good.
in short:
solo-air feels vague, and you're damping becomes dull-ed out.
with coil, it feels more sharp, consistent, but you may run more compression.
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What's the range of that bottom out adjuster then? Half an inch maybe? So is that 6.5" engagement with the adjuster all the way in or out?[/QUOTE]
The drop stop kicks in at 6.5" with the adjuster all the way out, the adjuster turns in about 1/2" so it would kick in at 6"
The drop stop kicks in at 6.5" with the adjuster all the way out, the adjuster turns in about 1/2" so it would kick in at 6"
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jsk 14 Excellent post!
I'm still Mr All Coil, and after having my right arm plated back together last week i was thinking of going all air to lighten up my ride since i won't be able to hit anything hard for quite a while, but after reading that i just can't do it! Off to find a ti spring to fit in a 35mm leg!!!
I'm still Mr All Coil, and after having my right arm plated back together last week i was thinking of going all air to lighten up my ride since i won't be able to hit anything hard for quite a while, but after reading that i just can't do it! Off to find a ti spring to fit in a 35mm leg!!!
Damn.....I and some others must be knocking the shlt out of our bikes
I've been riding a totem solo air, not on my dh bike but on a bike I have ridden lifts all day on for going on 3 years now. I've never felt it stiffen up. Certainly nothing like the old 32mm stanchion air boxxers. I mean that air chamber is HUDGE. And being so large, it really doesn't ramp up all that much. I had to crank the high speed compression damping on mine to keep from bottoming it in hard corners. Having ridden the coil version, I MUCH prefer the air.
I put some sweet checkerboard shelf paper on mine.
Agreed. I never felt it stiffen nor did I have issues running mine a the low end of the pressure for my weight. It was on my Shocker and only ridden on shuttles and the Whistler park. You sound very knowledgable jk but I'm not sure I agree with all of the points you bring up. Having said that I agree that Coil is generally more supple.Damn.....I and some others must be knocking the shlt out of our bikes
I've been riding a totem solo air, not on my dh bike but on a bike I have ridden lifts all day on for going on 3 years now. I've never felt it stiffen up. Certainly nothing like the old 32mm stanchion air boxxers. I mean that air chamber is HUDGE. And being so large, it really doesn't ramp up all that much. I had to crank the high speed compression damping on mine to keep from bottoming it in hard corners. Having ridden the coil version, I MUCH prefer the air.
paging freerider gawd kidwoo!!
I am lost without your technical advise when it comes to Boxxer. What is this drop stop thing being cut off or left as is deal?
In this clapped out video, Bubonic on Vimeo I seriously sought for anything drop to flat to see how far I could get into the travel. Looks like I'm running a Judy LT judging on the travel I got out of it.
what gives? cut the drop stop? The fork was bought OE from Go Ride in stock form but I think they tuned it for someone over 200lbs. I'm nearly 40lbs lighter.
I've already changed the damper oil back to stock weight but didn't touch the lube oil in the legs. I like the fork though.
Orven -Kidwoo's 70's Porn Collection owner
I am lost without your technical advise when it comes to Boxxer. What is this drop stop thing being cut off or left as is deal?
In this clapped out video, Bubonic on Vimeo I seriously sought for anything drop to flat to see how far I could get into the travel. Looks like I'm running a Judy LT judging on the travel I got out of it.
what gives? cut the drop stop? The fork was bought OE from Go Ride in stock form but I think they tuned it for someone over 200lbs. I'm nearly 40lbs lighter.
I've already changed the damper oil back to stock weight but didn't touch the lube oil in the legs. I like the fork though.
Orven -Kidwoo's 70's Porn Collection owner
what are you asking me for? I only rate a fork's usefulness by the clack sound it makes against a top tube when doing clicked moto whips.
There's actually a little USB port on the bottom of the fork. You need to update the firmware from the 95/judy.dll that go-ride runs on all their forks.
Figure out the spring weight that's in there. If it's the medium or heavy spring, try the light one. Most guys our weight seem to settle on that. Definitely pull the lowers and check the seal grease/lube oil situation. When these things are dry, life gets ugly.
When you pull the spring, you'll see a big ass elastomer thing inside the spring. That's your bottom out bumper. Some people cut it if they're not getting full travel. It seems to work for me as advertised so it should for you too. So I wouldn't go cutting anything until you know you've got the lighter spring and it's not giving you the travel you want. I guess if you cut it and regret it, you could always stuff the cut part back in there. It's not like it will go anywhere.
But also back off all your compression damping at first so you can see what the spring is doing mostly by itself. Then adjust as needed. At least that's what I do.
bookmark this
http://www.sram.com/_media/pdf/rockshox/dealers/boxxer_team_en_b.pdf
Have fun with that c-clip on the rebound damper knob
There's actually a little USB port on the bottom of the fork. You need to update the firmware from the 95/judy.dll that go-ride runs on all their forks.
Figure out the spring weight that's in there. If it's the medium or heavy spring, try the light one. Most guys our weight seem to settle on that. Definitely pull the lowers and check the seal grease/lube oil situation. When these things are dry, life gets ugly.
When you pull the spring, you'll see a big ass elastomer thing inside the spring. That's your bottom out bumper. Some people cut it if they're not getting full travel. It seems to work for me as advertised so it should for you too. So I wouldn't go cutting anything until you know you've got the lighter spring and it's not giving you the travel you want. I guess if you cut it and regret it, you could always stuff the cut part back in there. It's not like it will go anywhere.
But also back off all your compression damping at first so you can see what the spring is doing mostly by itself. Then adjust as needed. At least that's what I do.
bookmark this
http://www.sram.com/_media/pdf/rockshox/dealers/boxxer_team_en_b.pdf
Have fun with that c-clip on the rebound damper knob
thanks 'woo, you're useless. long live Judy XL
Have fun with that c-clip on the rebound damper knob
FYI on owners of C-clip pliers. They're always aimed straight down. Take and whack the tips to bend them in toward one another just a hair and they'll grab onto C-clips much better. This is what I learned from 6 months of installing C-clips in massive diesel turbos at a rate of 3-400 per 8 hour shift.
Moving on.
Running almost the same setup on my Team. No problems getting full travel. Usually only bottom out if I huck something stupid, which is the way it should be IMO. If I'm bottoming a lot in a run I'll add a turn or two to the bottom out knob.
I packed my seals with grease and changed the oil in the lowers...thats it though.
Orvan, Krispy from Go-Ride here,
Since i don't know your real identity i can't say for sure what we did to your fork but i can say this-
We don't change the damper oil in the forks, we tune the shimstacks, which i doubt we did on a new fork unless we had a long discussion with you when you bought it.
You probably need a soft spring if you don't have one allready.
Cool vid! I love the fork cam action. Keep in mind these forks come stock for a pro rider to ride at pro speeds on pro courses. We have average weight slow pros softening them and almost everyone else softening them even more.
We have come up with some awesome valve stacks for the 2010 Boxxer that we can setup for you or anyone else interested. But as kidwoo stated, the spring rate is the first place to start.
Give me a call or pm me if you want to talk more about this.
Krispy
Since i don't know your real identity i can't say for sure what we did to your fork but i can say this-
We don't change the damper oil in the forks, we tune the shimstacks, which i doubt we did on a new fork unless we had a long discussion with you when you bought it.
You probably need a soft spring if you don't have one allready.
Cool vid! I love the fork cam action. Keep in mind these forks come stock for a pro rider to ride at pro speeds on pro courses. We have average weight slow pros softening them and almost everyone else softening them even more.
We have come up with some awesome valve stacks for the 2010 Boxxer that we can setup for you or anyone else interested. But as kidwoo stated, the spring rate is the first place to start.
Give me a call or pm me if you want to talk more about this.
Krispy
Let me ask you a question a little off topic,
I have a Lyrik u-turn and I think it dives way too much even with the LSC turned all the way in. In fact I really don't think the LSC does anything on that fork. I weight 195 and upgraded to the next stiffer spring from stock and it still dives too much. In fact I prefer to ride with the Gate on to get the bike to standup while cornering and braking. But as you can imagine, it is pretty stiff while descending. Should I go up again in spring rate or opt for the solo air. I do like the travel adjustment option however. Is it just me or do the spring rate seem too soft?
What happened when you tried thicker oil in the damper to try and increase the effect of the LSC system?
I had a similar problem with coil Pike, but my Lyrik Solo Air has been mint so far. You should try ramping up the HSC as well, as it does have an effect on the LSC. I have found that a full turn of the HSC feels like about half a turn of the LSC. Makes some very fine tuning possible.
With my Lyrik, I can see some merit where Kidwoo says you have to run higher pressures to stop fork dive, and you lose a bit of small bump compliance. Personally, I like the feel of a stiffer fork so it has not really been an issue for me. I can imagine that with the higher volumes of either the Totem or the Boxxer, this should be less of an issue.
Orven, after looking at the vid, does the fork feel harsh or spikey? I did not really see much on that particular trail that would lead to a full on bottom out of an 8" fork. (You can take that as a comment on either the smoothness of the trail or your riding.) I get full travel out of my Lyrik about 1/ride, and that is on some pretty nasty stuff ridden by a pretty hack-ish rider. Unless the fork feels harsh, what I saw in the vid was effective damping.
I am paying very close attention to this thread as I have a coil Totem on its way and I am about to take the plunge on either a Team or WC Boxxer.
With my Lyrik, I can see some merit where Kidwoo says you have to run higher pressures to stop fork dive, and you lose a bit of small bump compliance. Personally, I like the feel of a stiffer fork so it has not really been an issue for me. I can imagine that with the higher volumes of either the Totem or the Boxxer, this should be less of an issue.
Orven, after looking at the vid, does the fork feel harsh or spikey? I did not really see much on that particular trail that would lead to a full on bottom out of an 8" fork. (You can take that as a comment on either the smoothness of the trail or your riding.) I get full travel out of my Lyrik about 1/ride, and that is on some pretty nasty stuff ridden by a pretty hack-ish rider. Unless the fork feels harsh, what I saw in the vid was effective damping.
I am paying very close attention to this thread as I have a coil Totem on its way and I am about to take the plunge on either a Team or WC Boxxer.
I'm a poo dangler..............I bought a 2010 Team.
I'll take the comment for my smoothness. I'm related to Shaft and Dwight from The Office.
The fork is actually working good. Nonetheless, I have an opportunity to try a softer spring this weekend so I'll play with it. On the big hits with steep rollers and such, I love the way the fork is dampened as is.
Crispy, I inherited the fork from one of your customer. He's slightly manlier than I am. Do you guys sell red rum? I don't trust lithium grease on spring in fork.
And I thought you would have been the first one on the new Dorado.
I hear you becoming a dad is expensive.
Crispy, I inherited the fork from one of your customer. He's slightly manlier than I am. Do you guys sell red rum? I don't trust lithium grease on spring in fork.[/QUOTE]
Yeah we sell redrum, if it's not on the site just call or email us.
Yeah we sell redrum, if it's not on the site just call or email us.
So without the trumpores telling me I'm a dumbass, and without RUFUS coming and telling me to maintain my fork, are these forks good to go now? I'm interested in picking one up to replace the 08 WC I mucked up but I don't want to get into an MRD Dorado situation.
Fork already has a replaced rebound assembly and updated parts.
Fork already has a replaced rebound assembly and updated parts.
What are you talking about? That fork was AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I had so many issues, Bobby (IIRC) shipped me so many spare parts, having to source my own seals after going through 4 sets of oem ones, the WC mechanics did their 'official fix' (drilling a hole straight through the compression piston).....
two months of that thing pouring oil all over, complete loss of damping, hydro-locking every time I rode it......
I was VERY happy to say the least when Answer refunded me my $$.
Your all set as long as it has the updated parts. The rebound damper was mandatory replacement as most of them were sticky, and the top-out spring was only mandatory if it the fork knocked loudly. I guess you "knew" if you needed it, mine personally didn't so it must be hit or miss. Either way, lube in the lowers + updated parts and the fork is mint. No problems with mine after taking care of what needed to be.
Thank you!
Just maintain your fork dumbass!
JK
I actually worked on my boxxer less this past summer than my 2 last previous forks. That's the truth. One breakdown when it was brand new and one seal change about 3/4 through the season. Changing the spring doesn't count, I can do that in the gondola ride up.
What were your last 2 forks? And where do you normally ride? A seal lasting 3/4 of a season at Whistler, for example, would be impressive.
Two different 888 models.
I'm at northstar 3 days a week during the summer. Tons of dust and zero water.
yeah i noticed that too when i switched to u-turn.
rockshox's seem to have really soft rate. on my pike, i run x-firm. i weigh 175lb....
just go with firmer spring. you don't wanna run max compression unless you have to, it performs better with proper spring rate, and reasonable amount of compression.
lol...thanks bro. I perused the 2010 boxxer thread and anytime anybody had issues with their brand new fork, somebody was around to bash them for complaining about it....that shouldn't be the case on a (brand new) product. Like I said, I just don't want to do the beta testing for a full price fork. Everything sounds good though, and I should have one come Sunday....for my sunday.
I hear ya. Every other RS fork I have had has had adequate LSC, but this Lyrik. I did notice right away that the stock spring was too soft, so I got the firm. But it does seem like they have their spring rates way off if I need the x-firm at 195lbs.
I had the X-Firm in my Pike and even at almost full compression it would dive like Greg Louganis as soon as I touched the brakes. I am really hoping this is not the same with the Totem or the Boxxer, although it sounds like the opposite may be true.
The Boxxer has firmed up noticably in the damping department compared to the old one, even with the adjusters backed all the way off. If anything it gave up alittle small bump compliance in the process. It doesn't have the same tendency to dive, or the suppleness of the old one. It downright delivers when the terrain is demanding and fast though.
This is good news for me. I can handle the fact that the fork may not feel like I am riding on a marshmallow all the time. Often good line choice can smooth out a trail quite a bit anyway.
I got the same impression from mine. Truly confidence inspiring and stable in a good way. In fact, I'm getting a new Lyrik DH for my AM rig based on the damper performance.