[jacksonpt]

I've noticed that on really steep climbs, when out of the saddle, I have to pull myself towards to bike to counteract the pushing away from teh bike that happens on the downward pedal stroke.

I'm not very good at spinning when out of the saddle - is that why I have to pull back into the bike for leverage, or do most people do it when the going gets steep? Or am I just a crappy rider?

 

[The Toninator]

i'm not real sure i understand what your saying but i have 2 distinct climbing positions, for steep gradients and technical terrain.

1. butt on the very tip of the saddle, very much like a time trial position, chest/head down.
2. position forward same position as above but an inch over the saddle.

Both positions are way more forward than a normal biking position.

 

[The Toninator]

Oh hello this is the road forum. tupidme:

1. still applies i'll need to rethink #2.

 

[jacksonpt]

ok, let me try to explain...

When I get out of teh saddle, I basically stand up on the pedals... putting all my weight on which ever pedal is in the downstroke. When the pedal reaches the bottom of the circle, I shift my weight to the other pedal.

When things get really steep, I have a hard time keeping the pedals moving... so I find I have to use my arms and pull myself down towards the bike. This gives me more leverage to mash down on the pedals.

Like I said... I'm not a good technical rider when I get out of the saddle.

On a semi-related question from someone who's still fairly new to the road scene... what is technical road riding? I understand what a technical section is on the trail, but on the road???

 

[jacksonpt]

Oh hello this is the road forum. tupidme:

1. still applies i'll need to rethink #2.

haha... I was wondering.

Yes, I do something similar to #1 when grinding things out, but when that's not enough, I have to get off the saddle.

 

[The Toninator]

yea the word technical threw me. not sure what the means.
i do now understand what your saying. Are you out of gears? sounds like you pushing too high of a gear.
i honestly dont know that i've ever been on a climb that hard. i have done some real buggars too. I’m also a spinner though. I have in the past practiced spinning out of the saddle so it’s kind of natural though.
Are you on the tops, hoods or drops?
i paractice spinning at a 100rpms for hours at a time (sitting mostly be i also do that standing.)

 

[jacksonpt]

I definitely need to work on my spinning when out of the saddle, that's a given.

Today it happened on 2 climbs I did. I was in my middle ring, big cog (my goal for the ride was to stay out of my granny the whole way) and I was really grinding. I'm sure I could have dropped to an easier gear and been ok, but I would have missed my goal for the ride. Oh, and I was on the hoods.

 

[The Toninator]

I definitely need to work on my spinning when out of the saddle, that's a given.

Today it happened on 2 climbs I did. I was in my middle ring, big cog (my goal for the ride was to stay out of my granny the whole way) and I was really grinding. I'm sure I could have dropped to an easier gear and been ok, but I would have missed my goal for the ride. Oh, and I was on the hoods.

I’m pretty sure I climb in the drops (although I alternate when it's a long climb.) it gives you more leverage. Honestly though it’s been a year since I have done any climbing on the rhode worth worrying about technique.

 

[The Toninator]

btw the gearing in the rear is important. what are you running?
21?
23?
25?
27?

if it's a 21 or 23 it would be ok to drop down to the devil ring in front.

 

[sanjuro]

ok, let me try to explain...

When I get out of teh saddle, I basically stand up on the pedals... putting all my weight on which ever pedal is in the downstroke. When the pedal reaches the bottom of the circle, I shift my weight to the other pedal.

When things get really steep, I have a hard time keeping the pedals moving... so I find I have to use my arms and pull myself down towards the bike. This gives me more leverage to mash down on the pedals.

Like I said... I'm not a good technical rider when I get out of the saddle.

On a semi-related question from someone who's still fairly new to the road scene... what is technical road riding? I understand what a technical section is on the trail, but on the road???

I wouldn't knock yourself out about out-of-the-saddle pedaling technique. Like a single-speed, you will need to use your arms to move the bike from side to side to give you enough leverage to "push" the bike up the hill.

If you were a very light climber, you could "dance on pedals", but I would not worry about it if you cannot. I mash out of the saddle, so I try to stay seated on most climbs.

Technical road riding is good cornering, pack sense, handling in traffic, and of course, fast descending. It is not so obvious these skills, but most riders are adequate in these areas.

 

[The Toninator]

oh i'm a total dummy today. i thought the question was 'what's techincal road climbing?'

:logging off interweb before i make anymore mistakes:

 

[jacksonpt]

btw the gearing in the rear is important. what are you running?
21?
23?
25?
27?

if it's a 21 or 23 it would be ok to drop down to the devil ring in front.

23. It was more the point... trying to get stronger and all that. It's a lunch time ride, so since I can't log a ton of miles, I try to set other goals.

 

[jacksonpt]

I wouldn't knock yourself out about out-of-the-saddle pedaling technique. Like a single-speed, you will need to use your arms to move the bike from side to side to give you enough leverage to "push" the bike up the hill.

If you were a very light climber, you could "dance on pedals", but I would not worry about it if you cannot. I mash out of the saddle, so I try to stay seated on most climbs.

I'm not a racer or anything, and I'm certainly not losing any sleep over this. The question was posted more out of curiosity than anything else. If some suggested a more efficient (or whatever) way to climb, then great... but it works for me, and ultimately, that's all I really care about.

 

[The Toninator]

23. It was more the point... trying to get stronger and all that. It's a lunch time ride, so since I can't log a ton of miles, I try to set other goals.

that's a tough gear but your building strength they way your doing it so it's not all bad. drop down to the drops and try again.
t

 

[reflux]

I’m pretty sure I climb in the drops (although I alternate when it's a long climb.) it gives you more leverage. Honestly though it’s been a year since I have done any climbing on the rhode worth worrying about technique.

Am I the only one who rarely, if ever, climbs in the drops? Perhaps it's my bike fit, or lack thereof, but staying in the drops on any sustained climb isn't feasible.

 

[face]

are you in a fatty gear i.e hard to pedal? the transition would be easier if you had a higher cadence that way you wont have to fight for every pedal stoke

 

[The Toninator]

Am I the only one who rarely, if ever, climbs in the drops? Perhaps it's my bike fit, or lack thereof, but staying in the drops on any sustained climb isn't feasible.

i consider a long climb 15 minutes.

 

[rooftest]

When things get really steep, I have a hard time keeping the pedals moving... so I find I have to use my arms and pull myself down towards the bike. This gives me more leverage to mash down on the pedals.

This is pretty much how climbing on the road works. I don't know about "pulling myself down to the bike," but when I'm doing tough climbs, I use my arms for more leverage. If I'm standing on a climb, my hands will be wrapped around the hoods. I never ride in the drops, though. My hips will be a little forward of the bottom bracket, so I can put my weight into every pedal stroke.

 

[Serial Midget]

Practice off the saddle dead sprints on flat roads and try to translate what you learn about balance and momentum to climbing. I assume you are not on extended climbs (where cadence rythm is easier to maintain) but on short steep rollers where maintaining speed is the primary goal. Try rocking the bike and dancing on the pedals - if your spin bottoms out or becomes jerky try a harder gear.

 

[ito]

23. It was more the point... trying to get stronger and all that. It's a lunch time ride, so since I can't log a ton of miles, I try to set other goals.

So you have a triple, that means you are pushing something like a 42/23? That is a pretty big gear for that climb. I would consider getting a 27 for the rear, you will enjoy yourself more.

You are also going to get further by working on technique than you are by trying to gain that bit of muscle and tone by really torquing the cranks. Work on technique now, master that and the strength will come. Ignore technique (as you seem to be now) and you'll get strong, but never get the finesse.

I personally climb in the drops, with the hoods reserved for longer, lower gradient climbs. I usually try to float the butt just off the saddle when torquing it and really getting my chest low. This is important as it provides more leverage for your legs. It doesn't mean humping the bar like you might on a singlespeed, but keep the body low and compact. I'd also suggest finding a rythm to climb at, sway the body slightly and stay light on the pedals while you go up.

Also, on longer climbs it is important to toss it up a little bit. Stand some, sit some, move about in the saddle. As you climb the hill more often you will notice sections that you ride standing or sitting. This is the rythm of the climb, stick with it and you'll get comfortable with climbing.

Pushing yourself hard with no technique is almost pointless if you really want to advance in roading riding. Yes, there are moments when really pulling and pushing can be handy, but doing it all the time won't help. Consider an easier cassette or dropping to the small ring, spin up the climb rather than charging up it, chances are you will be just as fast, if not faster.

The Ito

 

[jaydee]

Technical road racing usually means a wicked steep bumpy descent with sharp corners. In other words, a very daring rider with really good bike handling skills, i.e. Savoldelli, could gain lots of time on another rider on that type of descent.

I'm not racing anymore, so I don't hammer as much as I once did, but I stand and climb on short steep pitches or to get my momentum back up when my spin starts to fade or just to use different muscles for a while. I always drop it a cog or two to do it. I rock the bike away from the downstroke side to add some arm strength to the pedal stroke. The trick is to go in a straight line and not wander side to side. Guys like Pantani and Virenque danced on the pedals. Lance did that too when he attacked.

 

[Serial Midget]

I was once coached in a standing attack technique that was described as throwing your knees into the handlebars, particlarly effective on short, steep climbs. Still, it burns a ton of energy.

I'm not racing anymore, so I don't hammer as much as I once did, but I stand and climb on short steep pitches or to get my momentum back up when my spin starts to fade or just to use different muscles for a while. I always drop it a cog or two to do it. I rock the bike away from the downstroke side to add some arm strength to the pedal stroke. The trick is to go in a straight line and not wander side to side. Guys like Pantani and Virenque danced on the pedals. Lance did that too when he attacked.

 

[jaydee]

I was once coached in a standing attack technique that was described as throwing your knees into the handlebars, particlarly effective on short, steep climbs. Still, it burns a ton of energy.

Ya, it does burn energy. Definitely not the way to survive a 15 mile climb, unless you're the size of Rujano.

 

[JRB]

I can teach a class. Wumpus loves my out of the saddle style.

 

[jacksonpt]

that's a tough gear but your building strength they way your doing it so it's not all bad. drop down to the drops and try again.
t

I can climb in the drops for shorter spells, but it just doesn't feel good long term. It really fatigues my lower back, and I don't feel as stable on the bike. I'm sure I just need some practice and to think about where my body is positioned over the bike - I just haven't done it yet because climbing on the hoods feels much more natural.

I'll give it a shot next time out though...

 

[jacksonpt]

Am I the only one who rarely, if ever, climbs in the drops? Perhaps it's my bike fit, or lack thereof, but staying in the drops on any sustained climb isn't feasible.

I can do it, I just prefer to be on the hoods. I feel more comfortable and more stable on the bike.

 

[jacksonpt]

are you in a fatty gear i.e hard to pedal? the transition would be easier if you had a higher cadence that way you wont have to fight for every pedal stoke

Yes, that's exactly it, or at least it was the case yesterday. My goal for yesterday's ride was to stay out of my granny ring, so I was pushing a harder gear than I might normally. But there is one section of a particular climb where this is the case even in my small ring/big gear (30/23)... it's a 19% grade for about 300 yards and I just can't spin that... not yet at least.

 

[jacksonpt]

Practice off the saddle dead sprints on flat roads and try to translate what you learn about balance and momentum to climbing. I assume you are not on extended climbs (where cadence rythm is easier to maintain) but on short steep rollers where maintaining speed is the primary goal. Try rocking the bike and dancing on the pedals - if your spin bottoms out or becomes jerky try a harder gear.

I'll try the sprint thing...

The toughest hill in town is roughly 2 miles, takes me about 25 minutes start to finish. It starts off kind of gradual and gets progressively steeper, wiht the steepest section near the end of 19%. I start off seated with a good spin, and mix in stretches where I stand. By the end, I can't spin it... I end up too tired and the climb is too steep.

 

[The Toninator]

also remember no matter whether your on the hoods, bar or drops to keep the chest nice and open. dont tuck all in like your trying to be aero.

 

[jacksonpt]

So you have a triple, that means you are pushing something like a 42/23? That is a pretty big gear for that climb. I would consider getting a 27 for the rear, you will enjoy yourself more.

I have the granny I can fall back on for the time being, but my goal is to switch to a compact double at some point. That will give me a bit of "relief".

You are also going to get further by working on technique than you are by trying to gain that bit of muscle and tone by really torquing the cranks. Work on technique now, master that and the strength will come. Ignore technique (as you seem to be now) and you'll get strong, but never get the finesse.

I personally climb in the drops, with the hoods reserved for longer, lower gradient climbs. I usually try to float the butt just off the saddle when torquing it and really getting my chest low. This is important as it provides more leverage for your legs. It doesn't mean humping the bar like you might on a singlespeed, but keep the body low and compact. I'd also suggest finding a rythm to climb at, sway the body slightly and stay light on the pedals while you go up.

I'll try that. Like I said... I'm not a racer, so I don't get too "into" things (I don't own a HRM, I don't track times down to the second, I don't track my cadence, etc.), but I do take my riding fairly seriously. So if I can make some minor changes (like staying lower on the bike while climbing) and get better, I'm more than willing to try it. Thanks for the tips.

Also, on longer climbs it is important to toss it up a little bit. Stand some, sit some, move about in the saddle. As you climb the hill more often you will notice sections that you ride standing or sitting. This is the rythm of the climb, stick with it and you'll get comfortable with climbing.

I'm pretty good at this... at least on the hills I'm more familiar with.

 

[ito]

I'll try the sprint thing...

The toughest hill in town is roughly 2 miles, takes me about 25 minutes start to finish. It starts off kind of gradual and gets progressively steeper, wiht the steepest section near the end of 19%. I start off seated with a good spin, and mix in stretches where I stand. By the end, I can't spin it... I end up too tired and the climb is too steep.

sounds like a nasty climb, we have a local one like that. Add in gravel on the steeper turns and it can get messy.

Try to get used to the drops, you'll have more stability (strange that you find it less stable, maybe you just aren't used to them?), better leverage, and a stronger grip than you would on the hoods.

The Ito

 

[jacksonpt]

I rode today on my lunch break and tried some of the things you all suggested. It's only one ride, so I'm not ready to make any final decisions, so to speak, but I do have some early impressions.

The goals for today's ride was to stay spend more time in the drops and to run a couple cogs easier than I normally would, paying more attention to my spin/cadence. Here's what I think I think after one ride...

• At a "nice" spin in 30/23, I carry about the same speed as I do out of the saddle hammering 42/23. But I'm more controled on the bike if I'm seated and spinning.
• Spinning 30/23 hurts just as much as hammering 42/23 - it just hurts different.
• Spending more time in the drops is more comfortable on my lower back, but harder on my neck.
• Climbing out of the saddle while in the drops I tend to be more "jerky" on the bike. If I focus on being smooth, it gets better and I can really see the advantage to being in the drops. I just need more practice.
  
  EDIT: more observations...
  
  
• Climbing out of the saddle while in the drops is good for "attacking" the hill... harder riding
• Climbing out of the saddle while on the hoods is good for managing the hill and resting certain muscles

 

[Wumpus]

Spending more time in the drops is more comfortable on my lower back, but harder on my neck.

Make sure you're not doing the turtle -- hunching your shoulders and pulling your neck down. Concentrate on relaxing your shoulders and keeping your neck extended.

I can teach a class. Wumpus loves my out of the saddle style.

I don't remember commenting on your out of saddle climbing except the ridiculously huge gear you like to push. I did comment that your hips were swaying like a stripper trying to earn a buck because your seat was too high, and your annoying habit of accelerating on climbs while we were riding in a paceline.