Terry Schiavo again...

clancy98 · Mar 21, 2005

what we all just saw is alexis trying to prove that vegetative people *are* just the same as autistic people, after he couldn't get silver to say it (assumingly so he could rail him).

argued against it, but then, when you couldn't plant it, argued that autistic people are the same, by your dictionary definition...

all this so you could say "Silver wants to kill autistic people"!

What opinion, if any, do you really have about this situation?

Changleen · Mar 21, 2005

Damn True said:
Maybe this is what was meant by "cradle to grave". Ensuring the right of people to kill others from cradle to grave. We have infanticide on one end, and now homicide.........sad and pathetic.

So it's unnacceptable to kill people with partially formed brains, or those with severly damaged brains, but it's just fine to kill anyone with a fully formed rational brain who disagrees with you? :think:

Damn True · Mar 21, 2005

Silver said:
It would be nice if that was possible. You're the one who insists that she starve to death.

Uh, no. Never said that.

I said that I would not want to be kept alive in a similar situation. However, it is not for me or you to make the same decision for someone else.

This matter should be decided under Family & Medical review, not judiciary.

Damn True · Mar 21, 2005

Changleen said:
So it's unnacceptable to kill people with partially formed brains, or those with severly damaged brains, but it's just fine to kill anyone with a fully formed rational brain who disagrees with you?

Ive lost track of which words you are putting into my mouth.

At last try to have a referance.

Why are you so into the idea of killing this girl?

Damn True · Mar 21, 2005

Silver said:
Which is what has been happening for the last 15 years. It's not like proper channels haven't been followed here.

Which is why this is almost as stupid as the baseball hearings.

...and in those 15 years of family and medical review the move has been to keep her alive. Not until the "husband" got the judiciary involved (another case of the judiciary mucking around in stuff it should'nt be) did the urgency to murder this girl arrive.

ALEXIS_DH · Mar 21, 2005

clancy98 said:
what we all just saw is alexis trying to prove that vegetative people *are* just the same as autistic people, after he couldn't get silver to say it (assumingly so he could rail him).

argued against it, but then, when you couldn't plant it, argued that autistic people are the same, by your dictionary definition...

all this so you could say "Silver wants to kill autistic people"!

What opinion, if any, do you really have about this situation?

me?? i think i stated it somewhere else.
if i was her. i´d like to die.
i wish she had the right and choice to kill herself, but she has no choice. we cannot choose for her, even if the choice seems so obvious on the grounds that the risk for killing her mistakenly would result on an unfair killing on a human who didnt want to die. too much of a risk to take imo.
we cannot defend her right to choose, by make the choice for her.

on the other hand, if her choice is to die, i think the more humane thing would be just killing her instantly. starving her to death, regardless of consciousness, is too crappy.

since we cannot kill her humanly, and we cannot attribute ourselves to make a choice for her for sure... then just let things be the way they are.

the issue i see is a double standard, by which severely and irreversible cognitive impaired people SICIP (regardless of past function, or condition) with an ok autonomous nerve system is judged.

SICIP like schiavo can be killed, excusing the killing on "she would have wanted it this way", which nobody knows for sure.
and in other cases os SICIP, like those born with the condition, we dont dare to make the assumption of "she would have wanted it this way".

if they didnt had an autonomous nerve system, then OK, they are dead.. but they are not.. so they are not fully dead.. yet they both dont comply with the strict definition of "consciousness", since both are as aware of the enviroment, as a rock is...

Damn True · Mar 21, 2005

Just heard an interview with a Nobel Prize Nominated neurosurgeon who examined her for over 11 hours who claims that she is responsive and there is a chance, albeit slim, than she could be rehabilitated. To what degree I do not know.

What I do know is that this decision should be made by her family and doctors. Not by the judiciary.
She is not on life support other than the feeding tube, she is not comotose, she is responsive. She should be allowed to live unless it can be proven that she does not wish to be maintained in this condition.

As for me, no thanks.

Damn True · Mar 21, 2005

Actually, the interviewer brought it up.

I'm just saying that a Nobel Prize nominated neurodude knows a crap-load more about this kind of thing than you, I or some dip-wad judge.

ALEXIS_DH · Mar 21, 2005

wait, i just saw a clip of her case in the local news..

in the video she blinked..., and a local doctor said her ECT or whatever the electrical brain stuff is called is not flat...

Changleen · Mar 21, 2005

Gah, this thread is getting boooorrrrring..... Once again here is a great piece of news expressly designed to take your eyes of the bigger picture.

Damn True · Mar 22, 2005

Changleen said:
Gah, this thread is getting boooorrrrring..... Once again here is a great piece of news expressly designed to take your eyes of the bigger picture.

Oh I get it, Dick Chaney actually beat her sensless all those years ago to pull attention away from the war in Iraq that he was planning 15 years ago when working for Reagan.

Changleen · Mar 22, 2005

Damn True said:
Oh I get it, Dick Chaney actually beat her sensless all those years ago to pull attention away from the war in Iraq that he was planning 15 years ago when working for Reagan.

Nah, he got someone else to do it for him of course.

Jr_Bullit · Mar 22, 2005

Of course, now the Judge has said to keep the tube out pending further review. Apparently her Mom & Dad are not presenting their case well ...

http://www.comcast.net/news/index.jsp?cat=GENERAL&fn=/2005/03/22/87739.html

Judge Won't Order Schiavo Tube Reinsertion
U.S. District Judge James Whittemore said the 41-year-old woman's parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, had not established a "substantial likelihood of success" at trial on the merits of their arguments.

bigginsis · Mar 22, 2005

i love how the feds can pull off this kind of legislation in a "marathon" session yet they can't seem to figure out any of the REAL issues facing us. why is this a federal issue? i agree with whoever wrote that it is another distraction technique. with the news all filled up with schiavo, no one knows that the army just upped the age for reservists to 39 and that they will most likely up it again since they are running out of people. or that there was a kid in texas who was taken off life support last week because his mom couldn't find a hospital to take him and the law there is that if you can't find medical care they cut you off (oh yeah and the baby was black and the mother was poor). UGH!
and in my humble opinion, Schiavo is too far gone to be rehabilitated. Sorry.

$tinkle · Mar 22, 2005

bigginsis said:
why is this a federal issue?

same can be asked of lawrence v. texas. why was this argued before the Supreme court? it was a private consensual act between two males which happened to break state law.
(my answer is that we have the right to argue state decisions all the way to the high court) the u.s.s.c. is too backlogged to take up this time-sensitive matter; thus congress is the federal body which has been appealed to

bigginsis said:
or that there was a kid in texas who was taken off life support last week because his mom couldn't find a hospital to take him and the law there is that if you can't find medical care they cut you off (oh yeah and the baby was black and the mother was poor).

don't you know the unspoken rule of this fine land of ours? "leave no white girl behind"

bigginsis said:
and in my humble opinion, Schiavo is too far gone to be rehabilitated. Sorry.

which is a nice segue into the captial punishment argument.

but i'm not taking that bait.

$tinkle · Mar 23, 2005

Silver said:
You do understand, $tinkle, that there is a bit of difference between an argument making it to the Supreme Court through judicial channels, and one being forced to it by an emergency session of the legislature?

i'd say more than just 'a bit', which is just one of the reasons why i'm staying distant from any firm opinion on this matter; again, this should have been vigorously persued a dozen+ yrs ago.

Damn True · Mar 23, 2005

Two more setbacks from the judiciary yesterday (who should not be involved frankly).
I think the only two remaining options are the FLA legislature and the US Supreme Court (whom I have little faith in).

Just for the record it has been 4 days since this girl has had food or water. Her blood is thickening. Her heart is working overtime to keep it pumping. Her skin is drying and cracking. The flesh inside her mouth and throat is swollen and raw. Soon, if not already her organs will begin shutting down to preserve what little water and glucose her body retains.

Her father is being strip searched when he enters the hospital, and watched by police when he visits so that he cannot offer the slightest relief to his daughter as he watches her slowly dry up in front of him.

They are doing this out of compassion right?

fluff · Mar 23, 2005

I find it hard to understand why the husband does not simply hand over the guardianship to her parents. Is there a record of her wish to be allowed to die?

Damn True · Mar 23, 2005

fluff said:
I find it hard to understand why the husband does not simply hand over the guardianship to her parents. Is there a record of her wish to be allowed to die?

Nope.

Couple of nice things about this guy.
Her insurance has paid something like $1.5m (not sure on the figure Ive heard numbers that vary by 25%) to him to fund rehabilitation which she has recieved none of. He used the money to pay lawyers to help him have her killed.
X-rays show bone fractures in numerous places on her body that are evidentiary of physical abuse.
He is the sole benficiary of her life insurance.

Archslater · Mar 23, 2005

With all this arguing over her mental state, I'm surprised no body is questioning what I think is a bigger problem.... That Congress thinks that saving Terry is a much higher priority than addressing the millions of Americans without healthcare......

Ironic that they are severely cutting Medicaid - which is what is paying to keep her alive........

Interesting that the Republican party is based on reducing federal power and gov't interferance, until they have the majority, now the Republican Congress is overstepping its bounds in every direction.... Terry Schiavo, gay marriage, abortion...................

Damn True · Mar 23, 2005

Silver said:
Written record? No, I don't believe so. I'm only a couple years older than Mrs. Schiavo was when she had that heart attack, and I finally ended up doing an advance care directive last weekend. I don't think it would have been an issue in the forefront of people's minds at the time.

A living will is a good idea my man. Ive had one since I first started flying in the CG.

Andyman_1970 · Mar 23, 2005

Archslater said:
With all this arguing over her mental state, I'm surprised no body is questioning what I think is a bigger problem.... That Congress thinks that saving Terry is a much higher priority than addressing the millions of Americans without healthcare......

.......or even better the multitudes in this country that go hungry every day.

While I don't agree with the bulk of your post - it would seem like we are straining the gnat but swallowing the camel so to speak.

Damn True · Mar 23, 2005

When large sums of money are involved it's often a good idea to be a bit suspicious.
It dosen't seem a bit odd to you that he might dedicate funds and effort to sue a Dr. over fertility malpractice while all this other stuff is going on? A fertility malpractice suit 4 years AFTER she entered this condition....hmmmm I dunno if that would be my particular focus. Unless of course the fertility Dr. had some culpability in causing her condition. But I have heard nothing like that mentioned. If so then I can see the potential point of the suit but........from a purely cynical POV... it looks to me like he is finding ways to amass $$ which will be community property which he will recieve when she dies.

Damn True · Mar 23, 2005

I guess at that point for me at least it becomes and emotional issue based purely on appearance and behavoir. Not a lot of critical thinking in the following, just feeling.
It appears that the parents are behaving in a way to preserve the life of their daughter out of love and compassion and it appears that Michael is behaving to end her life and have a windfall.

Archslater · Mar 23, 2005

Andyman_1970 said:
.......or even better the multitudes in this country that go hungry every day.

While I don't agree with the bulk of your post - it would seem like we are straining the gnat but swallowing the camel so to speak.

Yes, regardless of your politics, it seems everyone would agree that Congress should be focusing on bigger problems than Terry Schiavo, or steroid/Baseball hearings..... Why do we have a judicial system anyway? I guess the courts are fine until Congress disagrees with them. Separation of powers anyone?

John Stewart said it best when he said that Congress is fixing the healthcare system one person at a time.

Ironically, there are thousands of people on life support in similar situations.... with their families filing for bankrupcy because of medical costs.... guess that isn't a real problem though.

Archslater · Mar 23, 2005

Silver said:
Except that's not the case. He's done everything by the book...and he's still getting vilified. I'd say that reflects on the people throwing the mud more than him though.

Read the second full paragraph on page 16 of the .pdf I linked to. Sounds to me like the parents want her alive for their own comfort, not hers...

From what I have heard, her parents never visited her, until all of the recent publicity

Damn True · Mar 23, 2005

The problem is when those seperate powers become unequal. This is off topic, but IMO we have a judiciary that is out of control and no longer in defense of the will of the populace. If a group, however small, dosen't like a law they just keep sueing until they find a judge who is crackpot enough to overturn it. That is not the way it's supposed to work.

The judicary is not and should not be the bailout for those that happen to disagree with law. The judiciary is not the all knowing and allways correct organization that some would have you believe. (think Dred Scott here) When last I checked we shape law by voting on statutes, or by electing officals who make laws in a fasion we agree with. Rather than via the courts.

I suggest you all read "Men in Black" eye opening stuff about how the judiciary is used and abused, and how it uses and often abuses it's power.

Damn True · Mar 23, 2005

Silver said:
Except that's not the case. He's done everything by the book...and he's still getting vilified. I'd say that reflects on the people throwing the mud more than him though.

Read the second full paragraph on page 16 of the .pdf I linked to. Sounds to me like the parents want her alive for their own comfort, not hers...

That is odd.

I guess the takeaway of the whole thing is that we all ought to be glad it isn't our family that is going through it.

Andyman_1970 · Mar 23, 2005

Damn True said:
I guess the takeaway of the whole thing is that we all ought to be glad it isn't our family that is going through it.

Well said..............I think it's things like this that remind us that we tend to take the life we have for granted.

$tinkle · Mar 23, 2005

ok, been finding some red-meat for the left, & i'll pitch it out:
republican talking points memo leaked

or is it?

(you decide)

Terry Schiavo again...

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