[Damn True]

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/metropolitan/education/3291763

So what is the problem here?

a) were the standards set too high?

b) was the previous standard masking a failure on the part of educators to teach?

 

[Toshi]

c) bad parents are getting worse over time

 

[Damn True]

While I'll scede to you that good parenting as a whole is on the decline ( the reasons for which are the topic for another conversation ) I have trouble making the jump to your assertion that the effect could be seen across an entire district in the course of just one year.

 

[reflux]

d) Texas has already made public comments about its dislike for the testing system.



IMO, quite funny...seeing as how the testing was a major victory for Dubya, yet his own state hates it.

 

[Senôr Lopez]

Meeting standards set by the NCLB act have been a problem all over the country. Not just in TX. Here in MA we are scrambling to get kids to pass their MCAS tests not just in order to graduate but to keep our school in good standing. The downfall of this is that teachers tend to teach toward the tests and take fewer risks in the originality dept, and if the scores dont pan out than even veteran teachers face the risk of being let go....and lets be honest, the govt. isn't making it easier to be a teacher, and by letting go experienced teachers in favor of new/cheaper teachers things aren't going to get better.
The answer to the original question is a combination of A, B, C, (partially) and
D: Underfunding/challenging conditions in the inner city schools. (at least that seems to be the case in this particular district)

 

[Damn True]

Letting go of the teachers that are innefective seems like a good idea to me. As it stands now once they are in the only thing that can get them fired is misconduct. So as long as they show up every day and don't hit any kids they keep their jobs regardless of the quality of the product they are paid to produce?

If teachers aren't teaching should they be allowed to continue to teach? It's their job to teach, if they suck at it they shouldn't be doing it.

Should a city hang onto a DA that can't convict anyone?
Should a city hang onto garbage man that dosen't pick up the garbage?

IMO testing standards have been far too low for far too long. It's time that school districts and the teachers union held teachers accountable for the quality of the product.

 

[Changleen]

Letting go of the teachers that are innefective seems like a good idea to me. As it stands now once they are in the only thing that can get them fired is misconduct. So as long as they show up every day and don't hit any kids they keep their jobs regardless of the quality of the product they are paid to produce?

If teachers aren't teaching should they be allowed to continue to teach?

Should a city hang onto a DA that can't convict anyone?
Should a city hang onto garbage man that dosen't pick up the garbage?

Unfortunatly I don't think there is queue of teachers waiting to take their positions, eh? I'd say this would be better dealt with by better pay and training for current teachers rather than trying to start over without fixing the problem.

 

[Damn True]

Unfortunatly I don't think there is queue of teachers waiting to take their positions, eh? I'd say this would be better dealt with by better pay and training for current teachers rather than trying to start over without fixing the problem.

I wont disagree with you at all on that point. Good teachers are for the most part underpaid however it seems that a lot of them are vastly overpaid given the quality of the product they produce.

The problem is two-fold though. Yes the pay fails to attract superior candidates, but the Union's failure to support programs that would create accountability garners them considerable culpability as well.

I edited my post while you were making yours, feel free to comment on the addition.

 

[Changleen]

I agree that testing standard in Western education generally have been falling, actually that's one of the reasons I moved to NZ, there is less of a problem here and a 'good' education through public shools is still the norm. (If I have kids!)

Whilst I think there does need to be a good standard of Education provided for every child, this does not mean there is no responsibility on the part of the parents to reinforce those lessons and behaviours at home.

That's one of the reasons why once education standards start to slip over subsequent generations, the fall becomes so much more pronounced. The parents do not relate or hold their children to their own higher standards any more, because their standards are not higher.

I was lucky enough to go to what I consider great schools. However, even in my secondary education, which was at a UK Grammar school (that means selective entrance exams) you always found pupils who were not supported or encouraged to achieve at home. This inevitably resulted in these kids underacheiving. My mother is a career teacher in the UK system, coming up to retirement very soon, and she is disillusioned by the under-resourcing and beaurocracy teachers have to put up with these days, as well as this lack of support from parents these days. I believe the situation is similar in the US from conversations I have had with teacher friends in SF.

The lack of parental support seems to stem largely from the lack of personal responsibility which is becoming increasingly prevalent in UK and US culture. (Again, personal responsibility is still a valued and recognised trait to a greater extent in NZ.)

 

[Damn True]

It seems you and I have found common ground. I agree with all of that. However, as in my above response to Toshi, parental involvement seems unlikely when there is only one year between the "excellent" scores and the "average" or "substandard".

That (IMO) can only be explained by the potential that the previous standard was low enough to mask the problem that the current standard has unearthed.

The problem has many contributing factors. But we as a society (or societies if we include the US, UK and NZ) cannot legislate parenting. We can however require a greater degree of accountability for substandard teachers, and we can make the profession more attractive by rewarding teachers who achieve and ousting those who dont.

Of course that would require busting that union......which is highly unlikely.

 

[Changleen]

It seems you and I have found common ground. I agree with all of that. However, as in my above response to Toshi, parental involvement seems unlikely when there is only one year between the "excellent" scores and the "average" or "substandard".

That (IMO) can only be explained by the potential that the previous standard was low enough to mask the problem that the current standard has unearthed.

Yes, this does seem likely.

The problem has many contributing factors. But we as a society (or societies if we include the US, UK and NZ) cannot legislate parenting. We can however require a greater degree of accountability for substandard teachers, and we can make the profession more attractive by rewarding teachers who achieve and ousting those who dont.

Of course that would require busting that union......which is highly unlikely.

Well, yes, we can't legislate good parenting, but society needs to address why parenting is becoming so 'poor' in certain sections and classes. This is a huge question. Probably need several other threads.

I doubt there are genuinley many 'bad' teachers out there, at least few with bad intentions. It's kind of like nursing, low pay, potentially highly stressful. You only go into that sort of job if you like kids and want to help them. Some may just be naturally bad at teaching, people with the wrong personality type and so on, and by all means weed them out, but I think the focus should be on supporting the efforts of teachers rather than 'testing and grading' them.

In principle I support differential pay for teachers based on performance AND experience, but I would be very cautious about who and how you evaluted these things. They are very tough to measure, especially based on simple exam results or a yearly inspection. You'd need ongoing monitoring of individual pupil results over many years to reliably turn around and tell a teacher they are crap and haven't helped. In the end it may be more effective to increase wages across the board and let market pressure and interview panels do the work for you as we see in commerce everyday.

 

[Toshi]

i hear nursing's pay is quite decent actually. at least if you're a rn, not a nurse's assistant . anyway, i still stand by my parenting statement: my parents have been a larger influence on my education than any teacher (even when divided by the number of years i've been in school, and i'm starting year 19 now...). i can't even remember most of their names, the teachers that is...

 

[reflux]

stuff about parenting

There was a great article in Time (?) a few months ago about the negative educational effects parents have been having on their children. A male teacher recalled that he once spoke with a girl's father by telephone to inform him that his daughter had been falling behind on her schoolwork. The teacher had suggested something to him along the lines of, "she could benefit from more quality time in the books while at home." The father, pissed, asked the teacher if he wanted him to come down to the school so that they could settle it like men. wtf?

 

[enkidu]

. . . , but I think the focus should be on supporting the efforts of teachers rather than 'testing and grading' them.

In principle I support differential pay for teachers based on performance AND experience, but I would be very cautious about who and how you evaluted these things. They are very tough to measure, especially based on simple exam results or a yearly inspection. You'd need ongoing monitoring of individual pupil results over many years to reliably turn around and tell a teacher they are crap and haven't helped. . . .

I do believe that good teaching, and for that matter good parenting, are NOT measurable by their students' academic test scores. If an autistic child learns to find comfort sitting around his/her classmates due to the gentle guidance given by the teacher to the whole class, that is a great accomplishment. If a child with a brilliant mind can be inspired to plunge into the ocean of inexhaustible adventure of scientific exploration, that is also an invaluable task performed by the teacher. Perhaps handing over the "love of life" might be the ultimate task teachers and parents are called to perform. And that is not measurable by simple tests and scores, I'm afraid.