[Toshi]

similar but inelegant designs:

EPACPOWER: http://www.epacpower.com.au/

200W, 24V 12Ah.

Elation eBikes. http://www.elationebikes.com.au/videos_and_pictures.htm

website apparently done by an individual who is both the worst web designer AND the worst photographer known. horrible. i have no idea of their specs other than that they have a "300W" tab that leads to nowhere, basically.

a third idea, for those who have a fetish for burning their inner-thigh hairs:

an aussie outfit. unsuitable for road bikes since needs clearance behind and underneath the bottom bracket.

an efficient but convoluted geared design, albeit only for recumbents. if i were to go with a new platform then a faired recumbent + one of these systems would probably be the way to go. afaik, they use 3 gears between the motor and the crankset, and then a normal gearset at the rear hub (for the rider). that way both the electric rpm and the cadence can be independently optimized.

EcoSpeed MidDrive. http://www.ecospeed.net/emddet.html

wide range of battery options, nothing that out of the ordinary, all at 36V. unknown wattage of motor, probably on the website somewhere.

 

[Toshi]

i'm only a few hours away from pulling the trigger on the quoted setup from Bike Elektro Antrieb. any last words of advice?

http://www.bike-elektro-antrieb.ch/startseite.htm

not all that impressive on paper: 24V, 250W, batteries from NiMH 9.5Ah to Li-poly 20Ah. range of "10-100 km". however, the gearing advantage, both from the pinion to the chainring, and in the bike's existing gearing would make it considerably more efficient and more torquey than a hub motor, i imagine.

1415 CHF (swiss francs, roughly equivalent to the dollar thanks to our sucktastic economy) for the following, including shipping from Switzerland to Seattle:

24V 250W brushed (i think) motor with the nifty downtube mount as above. chain drive to the cranks. i'm not going to run a front freewheel (trials-style) crankset at first so will have to pedal continuously while the assist is on. controller and 24V 10.5 Ah Li-poly battery pack to live in my camelbak, both so that they don't get stolen and because i want to recharge while indoors wherever i am.

currently the biggest hurdle i see is getting the twist throttle to work somehow with my drop bar setup. i'll either find a thumb throttle or find some way to make it fit, clearly not on the bars or hoods themselves.

 

[splat]

Toshi,

How aoubt one of these ?

 

[Toshi]

awesome

What's the jet composed of? Water? CO2? Methane? Exhaust?

 

[splat]

Hydrogen!

 

[Toshi]

so it's burning hydrogen? That's different, sort of like the hydrogen-burning Mazda RX-8 that the company was showing off a while back.

For those still keeping track I canceled my B-E-A order (post 364 above) after getting cold feet. Too many issues with drop bars and twist throttles, 24V limit, warranty support from a Swiss company with no native English speakers (not to mention my nonexistent German), and the $1400 price due to the horrible state of the dollar.

Now it's back to square one, and I think I will heed everyones' advice and leave my Klein unmolested, starting instead from whatever hybrid bike is on sale at Performance... Then I'll go through the shop in Vancouver.

Sometimes local support trumps superior design, and this would be one of those cases.

 

[Red Rabbit]

 

[Toshi]

hi Red Rabbit, thanks for the contribution. i agree that the BionX is a nice setup. i discussed it a bit back here in the thread:

http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2892574&postcount=303

 

[Toshi]

alternative personal transportation definitely includes pedal-only bikes (what a concept!) despite the alternative-non-human-energy emphasis of this thread.

while "true bikers" would perhaps scoff at these machines, i think the following two bikes would make awesome choices for bike commuters. the utility of an enclosed drivetrain with a geared hub and chain protection, designed-in fenders, and (in the case of the REI/Novara) built-in racks and lighting are paramount when actually on the road.

not everyone is fit or chic enough to ride to work sans helmet in tight jeans on a fixie.

2008 Bianchi Milano Alfine. http://www.bianchiusa.com/08_milano_alfine.html

$775 MSRP. 26" wheel setup, 8-speed Shimano Alfine internally geared rear hub with a rapidfire shifter. looks beautiful, has full metal fenders, a covered chain, and is just a seat swap away from going on the road in daytime hours.

2008 REI Novara Transfer. http://www.rei.com/product/744802

$600 MSRP. also 26" wheels, but with a Shimano Nexus 7-speed setup. 32 lbs. has full metal fenders, a rear rack, a generator front hub, and includes front and rear lighting. basically it's ready to go out of the box.

most people reading ridemonkey probably aren't aware of the differences between the 7-speed Shimano Nexus system of the Novara vs. the 8-speed Shimano Alfine setup of the Bianchi. Alfine is a newer and pricier group, and its main advantages are disc compatibility and a wider gear range:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/internal-gears.html

7-speed Nexus hubs have a gear range of 244% from highest to lowest.
8-speed Alfine hubs have a gear range of 307% from highest to lowest.

for comparison a Rohloff 14-speed has a 526% gear range, and a triple crankset mountain bike will have about a 618% gear range (source: http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/rohloff-impressions.html)

 

[dan-o]

My wife loves her Milano.

 

[Toshi]

My wife loves her Milano.

what year is her Milano? which rear hub does it have (Nexus, Alfine, 7- or 8-speed)? what does she use it for? if commuting, what length and level of hilliness? and, finally, has the hub held up under all of this?

 

[stevew]

car bike

 

[dan-o]

what year is her Milano? which rear hub does it have (Nexus, Alfine, 7- or 8-speed)? what does she use it for? if commuting, what length and level of hilliness? and, finally, has the hub held up under all of this?

I think it's 2 years old. It has nexus. She uses it for going to the beach, riding our kid downtown, local errands etc.

I wouldn't personally consider it a 'transportation' type bike. It works best with a beer in one hand. I personally like more aggressive bikes for commuting. I did a 26mi/rt commute in chicago for 6 years on a bontrager cross bike, which was perfect for the city.

 

[Stray_cat]

what year is her Milano? which rear hub does it have (Nexus, Alfine, 7- or 8-speed)? what does she use it for? if commuting, what length and level of hilliness? and, finally, has the hub held up under all of this?

The Shimano Nexus hubs have crazy low return rate on them. Their really well built for commuting applications.

 

[jimmydean]

Back in 1999 I had a Dyno Moto7 ($200 on ebay) that looked sort of like the Milano. It used a drum brake Nexus 7 hub and was awesome. I wish I would have kept it.

<edit> Found a picture of one:

Mine didn't have the white walls, but it was an awesome bike for a 7 speed commuter.

 

[Toshi]

I think it's 2 years old. It has nexus. She uses it for going to the beach, riding our kid downtown, local errands etc.

I wouldn't personally consider it a 'transportation' type bike. It works best with a beer in one hand. I personally like more aggressive bikes for commuting. I did a 26mi/rt commute in chicago for 6 years on a bontrager cross bike, which was perfect for the city.

cool, props to her for doing all that.

why do you prefer a more "aggressive" bike? clipless and a more forward riding position? i personally consider my Klein road bike-with-fenders a good commuter bike, but for people who can't wear scrubs and SPD shoes to work it's not a great option...

 

[Toshi]

i think that i mentioned this earlier in this thread, but here it is again, fleshed out more.

ebikes.ca: The Energy Cost of Electric and Human-Powered Bicycles, which was a term paper for one Justin Lemire-Elmore.

Cliffs Notes: electric-assisted bikes may well be MORE efficient than human-only bikes in life cycle energy use, because humans' metabolism is inefficient when multiplied down through the food chain.

relevant quotes:

The Energy Cost of Electric and Human-Powered Bicycles

[...]

Compared to other forms of transportation, the conventional bicycle is among the
most efficient means of human locomotion. To travel one kilometre by bike
requires approximately 5-15 watt-hours (w-h) of energy, while the same distance
requires 15-20 w-h by foot, 30-40 w-h by train, and over 400 w-h in a singly
occupied car. (Bouwman, 2) [...] Surely, it is argued, if people can get by under muscle power alone then the
addition of batteries and electricity only adds to the environmental costs of a
bicycle.
However, this conclusion is premature because it fails to recognize that the
electric motor is replacing human work, and that human work comes at the
expense of increased food consumption. The only way to properly address the
relative sustainability of electric bikes compared to ordinary bikes is through a
complete life-cycle analysis.

[...]

One can therefor [sic]
calculate that the overall food production efficiency in Canada as 2:13.4, so that
for each calorie available as food energy, approximately 7 calories went into
producing it. This efficiency ratio of 1:7 is similar to the results quoted by
Günther, who gave Sweden an efficiency of 1:7, the USA 1:11, and western
society an average of 1:9.5 (3). [...] By combining the metabolic efficiency with the food production efficiency, a net
figure for the human power efficiency is produced.
N human = 1:7 * 1:4 = 1:28
In other words, on average each unit of mechanical energy that a cyclist delivers
to the pedals comes at the expense of 28 units of primary energy (i.e. Fossil
fuels).

[...]

[...]

Conclusion

Despite the intuitive sense that electric bikes would require more resources than
regular bikes, life-cycle analysis shows that they actually consume 2-4 times less
primary energy than human riders eating a conventional diet. This conclusion is
largely due to the considerable amount of transportation and processing energy
that is associated with our western food system.

references are within the pdf.

 

[dan-o]

Now that our 5yo can ride his 16" bike w/o training wheels she'll be riding more (2yo on bike seat). We can get everywhere in our town on dirt rail trails.

For me, a commuter bike is selected based on distance and conditions of travel. I hate riding slowly for longer distances, especially when I have a timeline to arrive. For anything under 2-3 miles the milano is perfect. That's also about the max distance/pace you can ride is street clothes comfortably. I'm looking to get a Masi Soulville twitch for townie duties myself.

 

[Toshi]

here's a pretty decent page describing one dude's thoughts on what make a good commuter bike, along with examples of the same that are all readily available in the US.

http://kentuckybicycling.com/2008-commuting-bikes/

WHAT TO LOOK FOR IN A COMMUTING BIKE

In addition to fenders, the ideal commuting bike will have:

A rear rack. You can strap a load to it or hang panniers from it.

Sensible gearing. A wide range of gearing is best, and it&#8217;s nice to have low gears that are pretty low (meaning it&#8217;s very easy to pedal &#8212; great for hills and windy days). So generally it&#8217;s good when the smallest front chainring (&#8221;up front,&#8221; as I describe it below) has fewer than 30 teeth. (I&#8217;m no expert on gearing, but I can send you to someone who is.)

An internal hub. Having the gears enclosed in the hub of the rear wheel is a very nice feature for the sake of simplicity. There is no rear derailer to get bent or clogged with mud or ice. Internal hubs generally have an adequate range of gearing.

A chainguard. This keeps the chain from rubbing against your pants.

Lights. Front and rear lights are indispensible for keeping you visible on the road. The best commuter bikes have lights powered by dynamo hub in the front wheel; others have a dynamo that gets its power by rubbing against a tire.

Braze-ons: places to screw stuff into the frame. A good commuter-type frame will have a place to attach a rack, and eyelets on the front and rear for fenders.

 

[Toshi]

found via the linked kentuckyetc. page above, with clear inspiration from the Xtracycle (paging BAH back to the thread ):

2008 Kona Ute. http://www.konaworld.com/08_ute_w.htm

$800. 700c with a 2x8 drivetrain. look at the picture. wow.

i strangely want one, but it wouldn't work for my purposes: wouldn't fit on bus bike racks due to the wheelbase, and wouldn't be a good electric conversion project because of the front disc.

(a rear wheel hub motor would work but would require running a freewheel. i haven't touched a freewheel since about 1995, when i gladly embraced the cassette hub overlords.)

 

[S.K.C.]

My Honda:

I can get anywhere within a 1/4 mile radius in the low 8's... and still get 30mpg.

How is this possible?

It's a Civic!

:biggrin:

P.S. - In case you were wondering, YES - the wheelie bars double as a luggage rack.

 

[Toshi]

For me, a commuter bike is selected based on distance and conditions of travel. I hate riding slowly for longer distances, especially when I have a timeline to arrive. For anything under 2-3 miles the milano is perfect. That's also about the max distance/pace you can ride is street clothes comfortably. I'm looking to get a Masi Soulville twitch for townie duties myself.

that Masi Soulville is a sexy bike, yes. but a coaster brake?! i test rode a hub-geared bike with a coaster and activated it by accident while standing up coasting down a hill -- i do that to make myself visible to drivers and remind them that i WILL punch their fender if they try to squeeze me out ...

Masi Soulville. no link since i'm lazy.

$820 online according to the kentuckyetc. link. Alfine 8 hub, coaster brake online. undeniably looks nice.

going back to your point about pace and riding comfort in street clothes: what about a Milano with 750W of electric assist? i'm not saying that's the ideal platform, but something along those lines...

 

[Toshi]

i strangely want [a Kona Ute], but it wouldn't work for my purposes: wouldn't fit on bus bike racks due to the wheelbase, and wouldn't be a good electric conversion project because of the front disc.

i emailed Kona about whether the Ute might fit on bus bike racks, and they seem to think that it would. i remain dubious.

in chronological order, niceties elided:

I have a question about the Kona Ute: Will it fit on the bike racks found on the front of Seattle metro buses if the front wheel is turned 180 degrees to shorten the wheelbase? Seattle uses Sportworks racks, much as most every other metro transit authority, I imagine.

If you don't know this answer directly, then what is the wheelbase of the Ute both in normal and this "reverse front wheel" configuration?

I would bet it would work. I don’t have the exact wheelbase, but I did look at the Ute in comparison to my 20” Smoke 2-9, and the wheelbase is only about an inch and a half longer on the Ute, and my Smoke has no issues going on those racks.

To be clear, this means that the Ute's wheelbase with the fork turned backwards is roughly 1.5" longer than the Smoke's wheelbase with the fork forwards?

No, actually the wheelbase is only an inch and a half longer with the wheel forward on it. The Ute isn’t as long as it looks, and some of that length is behind the rear wheel. The beauty if its design is that it rides like a “regular” bike while being able to haul a lot of stuff.

 

[Toshi]

going back to your point about pace and riding comfort in street clothes: what about a Milano with 750W of electric assist? i'm not saying that's the ideal platform, but something along those lines...

so i did it. after all these weeks of obsessing and dithering, i placed an order today:

26" front hub motor wheel with a Crystalyte 407 motor in it
$280 USD

48V 12Ah LiFePO4 battery pack with a battery management system to keep it balanced and a matching charger
$900 for the battery, $50 for the charger

36-48V 35A motor controller
$190

twist throttle
$15

Cycle Analyst computer
$125

(with $45 shipping, $1605 USD total. plus the bike.)

the Cycle Analyst allows for monitoring and limiting current draw, voltage levels, as well as the mundane speed/distance/time cyclocomputer functions. using it i could dial down to 20A (which at 48V is a non-trivial 960W to the motor) or up to 35A...

now i just need to find a suitable platform for this expensive gear. currently the Milano is leading the race within my head, even though the Novara is undeniably the cheaper option.

 

[Changleen]

Edit your post to include $$ eh?

 

[Toshi]

Edit your post to include $$ eh?

done.

 

[jimmydean]

Why not something like the Kona Unit? They were cheap as hell. Not sure what the Milano runs, but there are a lot of somewhat inexpensive options in that space.

 

[Toshi]

Why not something like the Kona Unit? They were cheap as hell. Not sure what the Milano runs, but there are a lot of somewhat inexpensive options in that space.

i don't think i can get by with a single speed, even with all this electric assist. however, i do like the aesthetics of a single chain run with no derailleur, thus the idea for a bike with an internally geared rear hub such as the Shimano Alfine 8-spd unit on that Bianchi.

things i want:

26" wheels
internally geared rear hub, 7- or 8-speed
fenders and rack, or barring that, eyelets for the same
no suspension or disc brakes
aesthetically clean

things i'll settle for via craigslist or whatever's on sale :

26" wheels (the electric wheel is ordered, and having the choice of 26x2.0" slicks if need be would be nice)
frame and fork eyelets
no suspension or disc brakes
aesthetically clean

 

[jimmydean]

I figured you were building the wheels anyway. If I recall, the Nexus style hub is cheap, just rebuild the rear and be good to go.

Unless the Milano is sub $400, then it's a no brainer.

 

[Toshi]

I figured you were building the wheels anyway. If I recall, the Nexus style hub is cheap, just rebuild the rear and be good to go.

Unless the Milano is sub $400, then it's a no brainer.

i don't plan on building the wheels: the front wheel/hub will emerge from the Canada Post box full-grown a la Athena , and i hope to buy a bike already set up with a rear hub if possible.

the Milano with the 8-speed Alfine is $775. (there's a single-chainring derailleur Milano Citta for $600, too, also with chainguard.) there are cheaper alternatives, too, of course, from Jamis and REI/Novara...

although i was enamored with the Celeste Green the practical side of my brain is kicking in, and i'll probably end up with something cheaper than the purdy Milano.

 

[Toshi]

non-electric-bike content:

a pusher VW trailer running diesel:

Mr. Sharkey's Pusher Trailer. http://www.evalbum.com/304

the trailer weighs 1100 lbs and runs a 1.6L normally aspirated VW diesel running on biodiesel, with power to the two wheels running through a 3-speed automatic.

the VW it's pushing weighs 3100 lbs, is running a 24 hp DC motor at 108V, and i can't tell how many amp-hours. 40 mile range.

 

[Toshi]

a weird recumbent trike offering from the UK.

KMX Trikes. this one is the Typhoon. http://www.kmxkarts.co.uk/models/typhoon/

509 GBP, and who knows if they're available or supported stateside. weighs 19.5 kg. 135 kg rider + cargo weight limit.

i'm not sure what question these were designed to answer, but they do look cool. i'd take one for a spin.

 

[dan-o]

Toshi, been working too hard for the monkey last few days.
The Milano with electric assist would be great imo. The geo etc is really well thought out and the bike (well, with the exception of red sidewall tires) is plain cool.

 

[Toshi]

I figured you were building the wheels anyway. If I recall, the Nexus style hub is cheap, just rebuild the rear and be good to go.

Unless the Milano is sub $400, then it's a no brainer.

so i did some more thinking about this option of taking a single speed, horizontal dropout bike and adding in an internally geared hub. i'm not so sure it makes financial sense.

i'd start from this, the cheapest and sanest cruiser that i could find. $80 + tax and shipping at Target.com, the Bayview Cruiser (from Pacific fwiw). the bike weighs so much that after tax and shipping it'd be a hair over $175!

i'm not sure if i could stomach a coaster brake in the back, but let's assume that i could. then i'd need a Nexus 7 wheel and shifter with a coaster brake. from Harris Cyclery it'd run $300 shipped for such a thing, bringing our total to $475.

i'd swap out the seat and handlebars, but that'd be free from my parts bin in the garage. however, it'd definitely need a front brake. with electric junk it'd be close to 80 lbs, and i'm not riding in traffic with just a rear coaster brake... so let's say $15 for a used parts bin 1" threaded steel fork from the LBS, and $10 for a used brake lever and V brake. now we're at $500.

add in a rack for another $35+ and we're firmly over $500.

given that the REI/Novara Transfer runs $600 equipped with Nexus 7, comes with EVERYTHING (fenders, rack, lights, sane riding position), and would probably weigh a solid 10 lbs less i can't see how converting a single speed makes sense. if one started from a "real" single speed a la the Kona Unit then the weight and riding position would be better but the price would be even higher.

(i do agree that the Bianchi isn't as good of a deal, and agree with dan-o that the red tires are a bit much...)

 

[dan-o]

70#s of electric-assist fury seems disc-brake worthy imo. On the other hand, v-brakes hauling down that much weight would negate the need for a bell.....

edit: we put blackwalls on my wifes milano and it looks 100&#37; better (no, I don't have pics).

 

[jimmydean]

given that the REI/Novara Transfer runs $600 equipped with Nexus 7, comes with EVERYTHING (fenders, rack, lights, sane riding position), and would probably weigh a solid 10 lbs less i can't see how converting a single speed makes sense. if one started from a "real" single speed a la the Kona Unit then the weight and riding position would be better but the price would be even higher.

(i do agree that the Bianchi isn't as good of a deal, and agree with dan-o that the red tires are a bit much...)

SOLD!

That looks perfect.

 

[jimmydean]

How about this?

The Bio Rocket, a Duramax-powered, '65 Impala SS. 622 rear-wheel-horsepower, 1,280 rear-wheel-torque Impala has a claimed 0-60-mph time of 3.5 seconds and does the quarter-mile in 11.5 seconds and gets more than 20 mpg on B100 biodiesel.

 

[dan-o]

make it a '70 chevy longbed 4x4 p/u and i'm sold.
My duramax is only a (series) of bad decisions away from an attitude adjustment.

 

[Toshi]

70#s of electric-assist fury seems disc-brake worthy imo. On the other hand, v-brakes hauling down that much weight would negate the need for a bell.....

i'd agree on a front disc for a more-ideal setup. however, front hub motors take up all available space, with no room for a disc. one could run a rear hub motor, but then chainstay/seatstay clearance becomes an issue, and one must downgrade to a 7-speed freewheel setup with all the hassles of finding 7-speed chains, shifters, etc.

 

[jimmydean]

make it a '70 chevy longbed 4x4 p/u and i'm sold.
My duramax is only a (series) of bad decisions away from an attitude adjustment.

Not sure how much I have talked about it here, but my next project is a '66 C10 long bed converted to diesel. I can't afford a Duramax, so mine will be an 88-93 6.2 with Banks turbo upgrade.

I went to look at the truck tonight and I will likely buy it this weekend. I just need to find a donor motor and figure out if I am keeping the 3 speed manual or going TH400 automatic. 280hp and 450ft-lb of biodiesel turbo goodness.

<edit> Mine will be a bagged 2wd.