[jimmydean]

Crude is only efficient because we didn't have to make it, but everyone can agree that we should be figuring out ways to stop using it, not necessarily because of price (though that helps) but because it's really bad for the future of the planet. Biodiesel doesn't stand up as an obviously better alternative to regular diesel from an environmental standpoint, forgetting about costs and efficiency. Is it marginally better on paper than petroleum based diesel? yes. Should we be basing our national alternative energy policy on it? Definitely not.

Crude has a higher energy coefficient as well.

So what should we do?

I think we should be at a level of self-sustained production. We only use what we can produce and go from there. If we outsource our energy needs, then we invite ourselves to other issues. As you stated, poor countries cutting rain forest for palm oil and stuff.

I know what Brazil does isn't perfect, but the idea is far better than ours. Having sugar cane based ethanol reduces the reliance on outsourced energy. Oregon has local soybean farmers supplying the B5 additive used in all city buses. Again, not perfect, but better than most.

 

[Westy]

finding a way to make electricity cleanly and cheaply may turn out to be easier than finding a way to make batteries capacious, clean, and cheap to manufacture...

New
Queue
Lar

 

[SkaredShtles]

What we need to do is tap the mantle for f**k sake. It's only 20 miles down.

 

[skatetokil]

Crude has a higher energy coefficient as well.

So what should we do?

I think we should be at a level of self-sustained production. We only use what we can produce and go from there. If we outsource our energy needs, then we invite ourselves to other issues. As you stated, poor countries cutting rain forest for palm oil and stuff.

I know what Brazil does isn't perfect, but the idea is far better than ours. Having sugar cane based ethanol reduces the reliance on outsourced energy. Oregon has local soybean farmers supplying the B5 additive used in all city buses. Again, not perfect, but better than most.

If you're saying we should maintain a balance of trade and not go into debt to fuel present consumption, I'm all with you. If you're saying we should stop trading in the world to satisfy our energy demand, thats just crazy talk. The idea of self sufficiency for any good or service, much less a vital one like energy, is not only impossible but also dangerous in its tendency to incite nationalism and resource wars when supply gets tight. It's this sort of "we must control the source" thinking that got us into Iraq, though next time it will probably be deep water arctic reserves that we and half a dozen other countries are trying to annex. More blood spilled because we cant figure out that if the ruskies dig up all the oil they'll still want to sell it to us.

Diversifying our energy supply is a good idea. "Energy independence" is a red herring.

 

[jimmydean]

Diversifying our energy supply is a good idea. "Energy independence" is a red herring.

The Saudi's have oil, we don't. By diversifying our energy and reducing our reliance on outside sources will keep us out of Iraq and other places. We will never be truly independent, but we can certainly become less dependent.

Also, if we lead the way in energy innovation, then it gives us another potential trade export as well.

 

[SPINTECK]

This is a smart crow, which I know will correct if I'm wroing, but I"m suprised no one has talked about converting clean coal or natural gas into oil. It can be done, and I heard a quote (i think on a youtube video posted on RM) for 55$. Even if it's 80, 90 or 100$ per barrel it's better than oil. Any new fuel system is against big business and international speculators/controlers. But the new world order doesn't want to upset it's revenue streams. plus, all powers-that-be have to do to boost oil prices is cause conflict in the mideast.

Maybe nuclear to electric batteries or hydrogen generation is best for storage??? I have one (Limerick Nuclear) near my house, so maybe that's why I think all the wacked-out stuff I do

 

[WTGPhoben]

This is a smart crow, which I know will correct if I'm wroing, but I"m suprised no one has talked about converting clean coal or natural gas into oil. It can be done, and I heard a quote (i think on a youtube video posted on RM) for 55$. Even if it's 80, 90 or 100$ per barrel it's better than oil. Any new fuel system is against big business and international speculators/controlers. But the new world order doesn't want to upset it's revenue streams. plus, all powers-that-be have to do to boost oil prices is cause conflict in the mideast.

Maybe nuclear to electric batteries or hydrogen generation is best for storage??? I have one (Limerick Nuclear) near my house, so maybe that's why I think all the wacked-out stuff I do

nothing wrong with developing our ability to produce more of our own energy, but converting fossil fuel X to fossil fuel Y is a shortsighted solution (though extremely profitable in the next 50yr, I'd bet). All this hullabaloo about oil prices is a great opportunity to generate interest in truly renewable technologies and it would be a shame to avoid exploring these technologies full-bore because we can make oil from coal for a little while.

 

[Toshi]

if the tax structure reflected the environmental and other "hidden" impacts of coal, gas, and other "old" fuels then nothing would be required other than the invisible hand itself to push consumers to these "truly renewable technologies" that keith (wtgphoben) writes about.

ah, one can dream...

 

[N8 v2.0]

Here is ncj01's set up...

 

[Da Peach]

I saw an elderly gentleman using a Segway (sp?) in the grocery store on the weekend. He kept bumping into things and relying on folks around him to hand him stuff from off the shelves.

This did not appear to be the right choice of alternative transport for this gentleman.

 

[Stray_cat]

This is a smart crow, which I know will correct if I'm wroing, but I"m suprised no one has talked about converting clean coal or natural gas into oil. It can be done, and I heard a quote (i think on a youtube video posted on RM) for 55$. Even if it's 80, 90 or 100$ per barrel it's better than oil. Any new fuel system is against big business and international speculators/controlers. But the new world order doesn't want to upset it's revenue streams. plus, all powers-that-be have to do to boost oil prices is cause conflict in the mideast.

Maybe nuclear to electric batteries or hydrogen generation is best for storage??? I have one (Limerick Nuclear) near my house, so maybe that's why I think all the wacked-out stuff I do

I was under the impression that clean coal still needed alot of work, and was unfortunitly underfunded. But my info could be outdated.

 

[Stray_cat]

I saw an elderly gentleman using a Segway (sp?) in the grocery store on the weekend. He kept bumping into things and relying on folks around him to hand him stuff from off the shelves.

This did not appear to be the right choice of alternative transport for this gentleman.

Hehe, I think that's 'alternative laziness.'

 

[Toshi]

I was under the impression that clean coal still needed alot of work, and was unfortunitly underfunded. But my info could be outdated.

indeed there was a front page article on this subject in the NYTimes on May 30, 2008:

The Energy Challenge: Mounting Costs Slow the Push for Clean Coal

Artist's rendering of the proposed FutureGen plant.

By MATTHEW L. WALD
Published: May 30, 2008

WASHINGTON — For years, scientists have had a straightforward idea for taming global warming. They want to take the carbon dioxide that spews from coal-burning power plants and pump it back into the ground.

President Bush is for it, and indeed has spent years talking up the virtues of “clean coal.” All three candidates to succeed him favor the approach. So do many other members of Congress. Coal companies are for it. Many environmentalists favor it. Utility executives are practically begging for the technology.

But it has become clear in recent months that the nation’s effort to develop the technique is lagging badly.

In January, the government canceled its support for what was supposed to be a showcase project, a plant at a carefully chosen site in Illinois where there was coal, access to the power grid, and soil underfoot that backers said could hold the carbon dioxide for eons.

Perhaps worse, in the last few months, utility projects in Florida, West Virginia, Ohio, Minnesota and Washington State that would have made it easier to capture carbon dioxide have all been canceled or thrown into regulatory limbo.

[...]

 

[jimmydean]

I was under the impression that clean coal still needed alot of work, and was unfortunitly underfunded. But my info could be outdated.

That's because "clean coal" isn't. The process of extracting coal is one of the larger environmental impacts on the planet. If you look at things like mountain top removal, it's bad all around.

Converting coal into energy can be cleaner, but the mining process is still 100x worse than anything else. Check out http://www.burningthefuture.org for more info. I watched it a few weeks ago and was blown away.

<edit>

 

[Stray_cat]

That's because "clean coal" isn't. The process of extracting coal is one of the larger environmental impacts on the planet. If you look at things like mountain top removal, it's bad all around.

Converting coal into energy can be cleaner, but the mining process is still 100x worse than anything else. Check out http://www.burningthefuture.org for more info. I watched it a few weeks ago and was blown away.

<edit>

That's a really good point. That movie looks intense, I'll have to check it out.

 

[jimmydean]

That's a really good point. That movie looks intense, I'll have to check it out.

A good friend of mine is a safety consultant. He used to work on big oil projects for Chevron and BP, but he recently switched to coal mining ops for Chevron. He says not only are the safety standards for mining 100x worse, but the overall devastation is unimaginable.

He has very low ethical standards (he makes A LOT of money) and even he is starting to have second thoughts since working in coal.

 

[BurlyShirley]

A good friend of mine is a safety consultant. He used to work on big oil projects for Chevron and BP, but he recently switched to coal mining ops for Chevron. He says not only are the safety standards for mining 100x worse, but the overall devastation is unimaginable.

He has very low ethical standards (he makes A LOT of money) and even he is starting to have second thoughts since working in coal.

I've been to areas where this is done, and let me tell you, it's about the worst thing imaginable you could do to nature. The formerly clean "mountain streams" run mud brown, it's just terrible. I hate coal.

 

[jimmydean]

I've been to areas where this is done, and let me tell you, it's about the worst thing imaginable you could do to nature. The formerly clean "mountain streams" run mud brown, it's just terrible. I hate coal.

Watch the movie. All the water sources are ruined, the fish and wildlife are gone, they are having to truck in drinking water because even the rain runoff is contaminated. Not to mention rerouting streams and the flooding that has occurred.

I admit, before seeing it I had no idea. I've been shopping for solar systems ever since.

 

[Toshi]

I've been shopping for solar systems ever since.

care to share your findings thus far?

 

[Toshi]

plug-in hybrids with Li-ion batteries coming to (leasing customers in) the US in 2010 from Toyota. leasing to limit toyota's liability to batteries failing and wearing out, perhaps?

LATimes.com: Toyota promises plug-in hybrid vehicle in U.S., Japan and Europe by 2010

Toyota promises plug-in hybrid vehicle in U.S., Japan and Europe by 2010

By Yuri Kageyama, The Associated Press
June 11, 2008

TOKYO -- Toyota is introducing a plug-in hybrid with next-generation lithium-ion batteries in the U.S., Japan and Europe by 2010, under a widespread "green" strategy outlined today.

The ecological gas-electric vehicles, which can be recharged from a home electrical outlet, will target leasing customers, Toyota Motor Corp. said. Such plug-in hybrids can run longer as an electric vehicle than regular hybrids, and are cleaner.

Lithium-ion batteries, now common in laptops, produce more power and are smaller than nickel-metal hydride batteries used in hybrids now.

The joint venture that Toyota set up with Matsu****a Electric Industrial Co., which makes Panasonic products, will begin producing lithium-ion batteries next year and move into full-scale production in 2010, Toyota said.

Toyota also said it's setting up a battery research department later this month to develop an innovative battery that can outperform even that lithium-ion battery.

Japan's top automaker, which leads the industry in gas-electric hybrids, has said it will rev up hybrid sales to 1 million a year sometime after 2010.

Hybrids reduce pollution and emissions that are linked to global warming by switching between a gas engine and an electric motor to deliver better mileage than comparable standard cars. Their popularity is growing amid soaring oil prices and worries about global warming.

"Without focusing on measures to address global warming and energy issues, there can be no future for our auto business," Toyota President Katsuaki Watanabe told reporters at a Tokyo hall.

He said developing breakthrough technology was critical to allow Toyota and other automakers to continue to grow while avoiding damage to the environment.

[...]

 

[jimmydean]

care to share your findings thus far?

You saw my link for the "living home" builder, since then we have decided to see what it would take to retrofit our existing home. Home Power magazine has some awesome articles about solar/wind power.

The major issue is we rent currently. We have talked about buying our house from the owner, but I never know quite how serious he is. The current issues are:

Insulation in the house sucks
Electrical system is VERY dated
Windows and doors are old and leaky
Plumbing is also outdated
There is also a HUGE cedar tree that block the roof from mid-afternoon on.

So the house needs work prior to conversion. The nice thing is the garage is detached and gets full sun. So that allows for additional sqft of panels. http://www.findsolar.com has a good calculator breakdown to give you an idea of what's needed. Oregon has an added tax credit on top of the fed credit, too.

Right now the focus is on what the house might sell for (we are waiting until winter when the housing market is a bit further in the toilet) and what the retrofit will run. A lot can be done just in making the house more efficient.

This weekend I hope to be installing the rain barrels to water the garden with. Planet Green (Used to be Discovery Home or something) is an awesome channel, I get it at work and have been watching it non-stop.

 

[binary visions]

So the house needs work prior to conversion. The nice thing is the garage is detached and gets full sun. So that allows for additional sqft of panels. http://www.findsolar.com has a good calculator breakdown to give you an idea of what's needed. Oregon has an added tax credit on top of the fed credit, too.

That's a really interesting site. I'm pretty surprised at how quick the break even point is on their estimates - really something to think about. Thanks for the link.

 

[Greyhound]

Nickel mining for those Prius batteries ain't very pretty, either. What are they going to do with all of those used up batteries in 8-10 years when they start to die?

 

[Westy]

Nickel mining for those Prius batteries ain't very pretty, either. What are they going to do with all of those used up batteries in 8-10 years when they start to die?

Um, they are recycled just like the lead in the lead acid batteries that is in every car sold today.

 

[jimmydean]

That's a really interesting site. I'm pretty surprised at how quick the break even point is on their estimates - really something to think about. Thanks for the link.

I'm honestly not looking to "break even" on a setup. I am more looking for an option other than city power. I would rather spend the dough out of pocket and not worry about city power.

Forest Grove is city owned utilities, so it wasn't impacted by the Enron buyout of PGE. My water/sewer/electric is only about $120 a month (less than half what it was in Beaverton).

 

[Toshi]

SeattlePI: Site ranks walkability of Seattle neighborhoods: People are looking to park the car and stretch their legs

Compact neighborhoods with abundant businesses -- where people don't have to rely on automobiles to do errands or eat -- are increasingly seen as a way to combat climate change and oil dependence, and reduce obesity risks.

[more text at jump, image inlined here]

i live just north of the 3 marked on the map, and my address has a walk score of 92/100. you can find out your address's walk score at www.walkscore.com, the company that generated the map above.

 

[Toshi]

LATimes: Motorcycles and emissions: The surprising facts

THROTTLE JOCKEY
Motorcycles and emissions: The surprising facts

Irfan Kham/ Los Angeles Times
Tom Santos, 56, uses a Dynamometer to simulate the emission test of a Gas Gas FSR 450 motorcycle at California Air Resources Board facility in El Monte.

By Susan Carpenter, THROTTLE JOCKEY
June 11, 2008

I'd like to begin this column with an apology. I'm sorry for ruining your day.

This story is about emissions. More specifically, it's about the surprising level of emissions spewing from on-road motorcycles and scooters. In California, such bikes make up 3.6% of registered vehicles and 1% of vehicle miles traveled, yet they account for 10% of passenger vehicles' smog-forming emissions in the state. In fact, the average motorbike is about 10 times more polluting per mile than a passenger car, light truck or SUV, according to a California Air Resources Board comparison of emissions-compliant vehicles.

For those of you who are wondering why I'm being such a killjoy, my reason is this: I've been hearing from an increasing number of readers who want to know if two-wheelers, which consume far less fuel, are also smog busters. Because scientific questions tend to come with complicated answers, I thought I'd do my best to explain what pollutants a gas-powered motorbike emits and why.

Motorcycles and scooters are, on average, about twice as fuel efficient as cars. Compact and lightweight, their internal-combustion engines do a better job of converting fuel into energy that makes the vehicle move. But extracting more energy from the fuel has a downside. It produces greater amounts of a smog-forming emission called oxides of nitrogen.

Oxides of nitrogen are one of three pollutants the Environmental Protection Agency and the Air Resources Board measure to see whether vehicles meet acceptable emissions levels and can be sold legally. Smog-forming hydrocarbons -- unburned compounds in fuel that escape through the tailpipe, fuel lines and gas tank -- are also measured, as is carbon monoxide. Carbon dioxide, a greenhouse gas, isn't measured by either agency, but motorcycles are generally better than other vehicles in this regard since they use less fuel per mile.

[... elided... more at the article]

Long story short: Motorcycles, even small ones, are more polluting than Hummers, but it's the best that can be done for now. If you want to make a difference, consider an electric two-wheeler for your next bike or a gas-powered model with fuel injection and a 3-way catalytic converter.

this is one of the reasons i didn't replace my car with a motorcycle or gas powered scooter.

 

[Westy]

Anyone have an idea on what the impact of tailpipe pollutants are long term? It seems to me they might be volotile chemicals that breakdown over time. I wonder what the long term affects are of burning a gallon of fuel cleanly than say 1.5 gallons burning dirty? It should also consider the pollution required to process and deliver.

 

[jimmydean]

And motorcycle emissions is one of my driving factors for converting my next bike to be E85 complient. Sure it's not as efficient, but it's much cleaner out the pipe. An E85 will still get about 40mpg, better than any automotive options.

 

[Toshi]

e-bikes as they are are definitely not ready for prime time for joe sixpack, even if mine is more or less working out for me.

where am i going with this?

well, after 292 miles of seattle riding in many a downpour the hub motor on my electric bike stopped working a few days ago. more to the point, it acted like one of the Hall effect sensors in the hub motor was acting wonky: the motor was jerky when running and wouldn't start from a stop at certain angles of rotation with respect to the fixed axle. (this makes sense since the Hall sensors are used by the controller to sense the position of the motor and thus decide in which order coils should be energized in order to make the thing spin smoothly forward.)

according to the reseller's troubleshooting page this is a pretty common problem in BC and the northwest: http://ebikes.ca/troubleshooting.shtml . apparently the water sealing isn't 100% perfect and the drainage nonexistent, leading to moisture building up within the motor and this kind of problem.

this led to a day of maintenance. first up was scraping off surface oxidation from the fork and torque arms that buildyourown built me -- a brillo pad did the trick without any effort, as it truly was on the surface:

after cleanup:

add rustoleum to the mix:

there still was that whole not-working issue to resolve, however, so i popped open the hub motor itself. this involved undoing the screws holding the cover on and then jumping (lightly) on the rim until the cover popped off from pressure from the stator within. no joke.

and what did we find within? yes, water. not too much of it, but it might be what caused the problems:

note droplets in inner surface of cover:

 

[buildyourown]

Toshi,
Was there any sealant or gasket in there when you pulled the cover off? If not, it will leak again. I would reassemble it with some RTV sealant.

 

[Toshi]

Toshi,
Was there any sealant or gasket in there when you pulled the cover off? If not, it will leak again. I would reassemble it with some RTV sealant.

i am told that the problem isn't that the sealing isn't perfect -- it'll never be as there's a hole at the bottom through which the wires exit -- but rather that the venting and draining is poor. people actually have more problems like this when they try to seal everything up.

i think many members of the e-bike community are hobbyists who live in dry climates. day-in and -out commuters in wet climes are rarer.

the good news for me is that it's 1.4 miles to harborview and 3.3 miles to UWMC from my place +/- not being a direct shot on the freeway as google maps assumes, so i may end up riding the road bike more often than not, saving the e-bike for trips with luggage and over longer distances. we'll see.

if you find yourself around capitol hill let me know and take a spin on the bike! (assuming it's working and dried out by then )

 

[Toshi]

under the unassuming skin of this Toyota Crown Comfort (for years the japanese taxicab equivalent of the crown vic, only without the USDM suckitude and with auto-opening passenger doors) lies a superconducting electric powertrain. 365 kW! that's just shy of 490 horsepower...

while commenters on the linked article rightly point out that the efficiency improvements probably aren't worth the cost of cooling superconductors with liquid nitrogen the real market for this is trains and buses. seattle's bus fleet has 250?+ serial diesel-electric hybrid buses, each of them 60-foot articulated behemoths.

i was told by one of the metro mechanics that they run at ~600V and "in the hundreds" of amps. i'm positive (cue rimshot) that they'd welcome an advancement such as this with open arms.

Sumitomo Electric Superconducting EV. http://www.pinktentacle.com/2008/06/superconductor-electric-vehicle/

Sumitomo Electric has developed what is being called the world’s first automobile powered by a superconducting motor. The electric passenger sedan (a modified Toyota Crown Comfort), which is powered by a 365-kilowatt high-temperature superconducting motor cooled by liquid nitrogen, was unveiled in Osaka on June 12 and will go on display at the Hokkaido Toyako G8 Summit on June 19.

Superconductors — energy-efficient materials that can carry electrical current without resistance — are used in applications ranging from medical devices to linear motors for trains. Until now, however, they have never been used to power an automobile, says Sumitomo.

Sumitomo’s motor uses high-temperature superconducting wires instead of the copper wire typically used in the coils in electric vehicle motors. When cooled to an extremely low temperature, electrical resistance and current loss are reduced to nearly zero, so the motor can operate with greater energy efficiency and torque — in other words, the motor uses less electricity to do the same amount of work. The company says the prototype vehicle can travel 10% farther than conventional electric vehicles running on the same type of battery.

The development comes as demand for electric vehicles grows, and as manufacturers step up efforts to improve battery and motor performance to increase the distance that vehicles can travel on a single charge.

Sumitomo intends to further improve the motor with the aim of putting a vehicle on the market in the not-too-distant future. The company is looking to develop superconductor motors for buses and trucks as well.

 

[Toshi]

not personal transportation per se, but this is only one step removed. Cliffs Notes: japanese engineers rig up giant piezoelectric devices (my speculation) to generate electricity from the vibration and swaying of bridges generated by vehicles passing over them.

Japanese bridges to generate power from vibration http://www.motorauthority.com/news/design/japanese-bridges-to-generate-power-from-vibration/

It&#8217;s not the first time the Japanese have taken the novel concept to reality. A bridge over the Arakawa River already uses the vibrations from passing cars to power some of its lights at night. The new project will expand the technology to the other four bridges on Tokyo&#8217;s Shuto Expressway.

Working on the same principles that transform electrical impulses in speaker wire into mechanical movements, or vibrations, in speakers and headphones - except in reverse - the equipment fitted to the bridges takes energy that would otherwise be wasted making sound and turns it back into a usable form.

It&#8217;s not clear how much electricity can be generated this way, or how efficient the system is, but it&#8217;s apparently cost-effective, at least in the long term, since it&#8217;s being expanded to the whole metropolitan bridge system.

[...]

 

[DaveW]

That sounds like an exceptionally cool bit of creating engineering Toshi!!!

 

[dan-o]

not personal transportation per se, but this is only one step removed. Cliffs Notes: japanese engineers rig up giant piezoelectric devices (my speculation) to generate electricity from the vibration and swaying of bridges generated by vehicles passing over them.

Too bad that stuff wasn't around in the 70s. One good Godzilla vs Mothra battle could've powered the whole country.

 

[DaveW]

Looks like Honda is taking the leap into alternative fuels, comercial production has begun!

The Japanese car manufacturer Honda has begun the first ever commercial production of a hydrogen fuel-cell powered vehicle.

 

[stevew]

Looks like Honda is taking the leap into alternative fuels, comercial production has begun!

The Japanese car manufacturer Honda has begun the first ever commercial production of a hydrogen fuel-cell powered vehicle.

one liter of water please.

 

[DaveW]

Blimey!!!

 

[stevew]

You would figure Honda would be all over using that, or at least interested.