[dan-o]

Ouch. Price gouging at the "green" pump.

City of Portland paying twice market rate for biodiesel

Everything biodiesel related is overpriced right now.
After I realized that B20 cost me more at the pump and gave me reduced mpg, I dropped commercial bio like a bad habit.

The skyrocketing costs of homebrewing also killed those plans, and I was *this* close to buying a shop and really cranking out some volume for my work trucks and home heating oil. And that was when diesel was @ $4.85/g.

 

[jimmydean]

The skyrocketing costs of homebrewing also killed those plans, and I was *this* close to buying a shop and really cranking out some volume for my work trucks and home heating oil. And that was when diesel was @ $4.85/g.

Here in Oregon it's near impossible to home brew anymore because Sequential Biofuels pays restaurants to recycle oil. Since home brew used to be based off of free WVO, it's dead because nobody gives it away when they can be paid.

My whole truck project was based around the idea of brewing my own or at least a blend, but I figured the motorcycle is cheaper.

I know E85 is now only a penny cheaper then unleaded. Considering the reduced MPG, it makes no sense.

 

[Toshi]

more info on the supposedly forthcoming highway-speed Miles EV:

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/12/05/miles-ev-ceo-talks-about-highway-speed-electric-sedan-companys/

it's from a company run by a former Goldman Sachs exec, and will be based off of an existing platform from a Chinese manufacturer with similarly Chinese-sourced batteries combined with American and European engineering and control electronics. supposedly the business model is such that the company could be profitable at 5000 units per year.

goals for the car: $40k price before tax breaks. 85 mph top speed. greater than 100 mile range per charge. 4 doors, 5 seats, standard layout. 0-60 in around 8 seconds.

So far, Miles EV has done one crash test with one of the electric prototype at 40 mph with a 40 degree offset. Over the next year and a half, aside from the vehicle's name, the Czinger said following will happen:

- US and EU homologation will be done concurrently
- Four of the prototypes are soon going to be put through durability and reliability testing. Even on an accelerated schedule, that takes six months, then the software will be tuned for full electronic stability control
- By mid-2009, the car will be hardware design complete and then Miles EV will finish vehicle testing and move to initial market testing
- A fleet market introduction into LA at the very end of December 2009 or first quarter of 2010
- By the second quarter of 2010, Miles hopes to be delivering the vehicles to buyers

"With our car," he said, "we can be an extremely profitable company with this business model selling 5,000 cars plus a year. We're not a major auto company that needs to sell 150,000 of a model in order to break even. The important thing for us is to have the car that is engineered by people who are knowledgeable and have brought lots of different cars to market and who are homologating this car, engineering it to hit the vehicle requirements we're talking about and the safety that we're talking about. If we do that, within California itself, we'll be able to sell out at least the 9,000 cars we feel we can produce in 2010.

Who will buy the sedan? Czinger said the company is looking for people who are environmentally conscious and pragmatic, people who are willing to pay a little extra and understand that the car will offer different options than an ICE car. "Then, on the weekend," he said, "if I need to get into my SUV and blast up to Tahoe, I'll feel damn good about myself and have the convenience to be able to do it."

it's pretty hideous, and its standard layout makes it less attractive to window shoppers such as myself that are enthralled with the radically different vehicles such as Aptera. furthermore it'll be built in China, and its ambitious timeline depends on it winning speedy approval, including passing many a crash test.

that said, it just might be the first "practical" electric car that'll make it onto the market.

 

[boogenman]

my VW golf TDI gets 48mpg i drive country roads, no highway.

 

[jimmydean]

I wouldn't mind sporting a Rav4-EV if they can increase the mileage for DH trips.

 

[Toshi]

I wouldn't mind sporting a Rav4-EV if they can increase the mileage for DH trips.

the RAV4-EV is pretty sweet. that people still pay $75k for them used at this point (10 years out iirc) shows that there's pent up demand. makes me think that Tesla's Whitestar could do quite well if it's actually built.

 

[jimmydean]

Ouch.

From hybrids to SUVs, unsold cars pile up

At the Long Beach port near Los Angeles, Toyota Motor Corp vehicles including Prius hybrids, FJ Cruiser sport utility vehicles and Lexus IS 250 luxury sedans are being stored on a vast construction site that will one day be a new container terminal.

The site became a gigantic parking lot when Toyota and Daimler AG's Mercedes-Benz asked the port for space to store thousands of vehicles that dealerships have not been able to take on due to sluggish sales.

 

[Toshi]

another for the would-be-cool-if-it-were-imported-here-at-a-sane-price-with-local-support-available-for-when-it-breaks-down file:

eKRAD electric supermoto and motocross bikes from the fatherland

21 kW motor driven by a 72V 50Ah (!) pile of lithium.

(i'm not terribly impressed by the riding in the video but that's the best footage i have)

 

[Toshi]

top sellers in terms of lowest days on the lot over Jan-Nov 2008:

(from http://www.autospies.com/images/users/Agent001/Hot-list-EOS/screen-capture-6.jpg )

1. Mini Cooper, 11 days on the lot
2. Toyota Prius, 12 days on the lot
3. Honda Fit, 15 days on the lot

 

[wreckedrex]

another for the would-be-cool-if-it-were-imported-here-at-a-sane-price-with-local-support-available-for-when-it-breaks-down file:

http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/ These guys are in Santa Cruz CA. Supposedly there is a street legal supermoto version on the way that should be on par with a DRZ. Seems neat, but $7500 isn't exactly cheap.

 

[Toshi]

http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/ These guys are in Santa Cruz CA. Supposedly there is a street legal supermoto version on the way that should be on par with a DRZ. Seems neat, but $7500 isn't exactly cheap.

they were on leno, no? i'll believe it when i see the street legal version...

 

[Toshi]

a sweet looking electric bike from down under:

http://www.stealthelectricbikes.com.au/stealth_bomber.html

available in 2 kW and 3 kW versions (my bike is ~800W for reference) in both short and long range flavors, with 20-35 km and 35-50 km quoted, respectively. custom cromo/steel monocoque frame with enclosed battery and wiring, V-Boxx for gearing, 203 mm travel up front, 250 mm out in back, and 8" hayes.

looks like it'd be a blast, no? the 2 kW is good for 50 km/h, and the 3 kW for 70 km/h.

aussie-built custom e-bikes don't come cheap, however:

Prices:
2kW Short Range - $6950 AUD
2kW Long Range - $7350 AUD
3kW Short Range - $7250 AUD
3kW Long Range - $7550 AUD

Shipping: (7 days, door-door)
USA - $700 AUD
Europe - $1000 AUD

 

[valve bouncer]

a sweet looking electric bike from down under:





aussie-built custom e-bikes don't come cheap, however:

Take a third off that price to get US$.
I wonder if they'd just ship the frame and rear wheel and you could do the rest yourself pretty easy. Can't imagine super monsters are cheap in Australia. US$ 3500 shipped I'd reckon.
Edit- mmm front fork is an RST but that looks like a super monster in the pic or have I lost it?

 

[Toshi]

Take a third off that price to get US$.
I wonder if they'd just ship the frame and rear wheel and you could do the rest yourself pretty easy. Can't imagine super monsters are cheap in Australia. US$ 3500 shipped I'd reckon.
Edit- mmm front fork is an RST but that looks like a super monster in the pic or have I lost it?

that's a good idea: the rear hub motor is an off the shelf Crystalyte "x5" series motor. it's available from the same vancouver, BC outfit from which i bought my e-bike's motor (a Crystalyte 407, one series down in price, weight, and power from the x5 series): www.ebikes.ca.

parts that one would need to source from them to make this happen on the cheap:
- frame w/V-boxx
- battery -- these are not standardized yet and they probably use a weird configuration to fit in that frame

that said, it's not the perfect design: that hub motor weighs easily 20 lbs and i have no idea how that much unsprung weight would affect handling. also it's in a mostly-uncharted grey area with its ability to go over 35 mph while not being registered or equipped as a road vehicle...

somewhat on that topic is a snippet from a post i made yesterday:

how will i jet myself around town in the future, especially in some place where it gets legitimately cold in the winter? i'd totally drive an Aptera were it not for the fact that it's not out yet; will only be available in California to start; and is not cheap in the context of a huge student loan burden and a meager resident's salary. minor things, these. i really don't want a "normal" car, on the other hand.

i don't think i'll be able to ride the electric bike in its current incarnation forever: i designed and built it with the purpose of getting me to and from work while avoiding paying for a car or motorcycle as both would have required expensive parking permits. although it serves its purpose well enough it's not the most reliable thing, its brakes frankly suck, it doesn't have sufficient lighting, and its high weight, 75 psi commuter tires, high unsprung weight of the hub motor, and rigid fork and frame really beat me up.

essentially its shortcomings are that it's not an electric motorcycle. so who will answer my pleas and bring to market a reasonably priced, street legal/registerable, reliable, supported, quick, efficient, and practical electric motorcycle or scooter? the contenders are many but most are still vaporware except for Vectrix, which has the problems of price, proprietary battery technology, and not living up to its claims. other ones on the horizon include Zero Motorcycles' eponymous offering, Brammo's Enertia, Piaggio's plug-in hybrid MP3 scooter, and sundry hobby shop specials whose creators have made websites and optimistically project that they'll produce their frankenstein-ish creations for widespread sale.

i kind of have the sneaking suspicion that i may be alone in my pleas for such a beast, unfortunately, and that offerings may continue to be scant as investors realize that a market as small as mine is not worth pursuing. they'll probably be investing in companies making hobo stew not conveyances for yuppies with an environmental conscience, after all...

 

[Toshi]

woohoo, finally on page 22 for real without database errors?! anyway, here's some more news:

BYD, a chinese cell phone battery company (!), is supposed to release its plug-in hybrid automobile for sale in china tomorrow, Dec 15, 2008. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BYD_F3DM

specs: supposed price equivalent to $22k. 68 mi all-electric range with a gasoline range extender a la the mythical Chevy Volt after that range is exceeded. supposedly the first roll-out will be via a fleet of 200 taxis in Shenzen.

here are a few pics, and no, it's not actually a Corolla -- just looks like one:

a cutaway:

doubtful of the prospects of a Chinese cell-phone battery company that wants to wade in the US market soon? well, it might give you peace of mind that warren buffett thought they were a good investment, as he bought 9.9% of BYD a few months ago for a sum of $232 million... http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/warren-buffett-looks-electric-car/story.aspx?guid={1FFA3661-1A19-423C-8375-FFAC4541B7CE}


------------------------------------------

a really cool electric motorcycle with an apparent eye for aerodynamics!

unfortunately a not-for-sale concept:

...proof-of-concept electric motorcycle. At the Santa Monica AltCar Expo, Corning was talking with curious visitors all weekend, but was happy to tell AutoblogGreen about the bike. The four panels behind Corning in the picture above offer 800 watts, enough to recharge the bike. During testing, he's blown up the batteries twice, and those accidents helped him realize the benefits of a more aerodynamic bike. Inspired by Craig Vetter's fuel efficiency contests of the 1980s, Corning designed the Prometheus research vehicle to be quite slippery (note the front wheel cover and the extended back end to give the air somewhere to go). He also wanted to keep the upright seating of a motorcycle, which influenced the desighn. Currently, the bike uses lithium-ion phosphate batteries from Thundersky that have a 4.6 kWh capacity connected to a 10 HP Perm PMG 132 motor. That means he can go up to 70 mph and has a range of about 50 miles. The bike is not for sale, but there has been no lack of interest, both at the show and on the street. Corning said he had to buy an open face helmet to talk to all of the people who chat him up at stop lights.

 

[Toshi]

Quantya Strada. http://www.quantya.us/ , http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=5892

The street-legal Strada model is based on the off-road Trax model. The Strada has some extras to comply with DOT requirements - such as headlight, brake light, mirrors, turn signals. The Strada also has an auxiliary LiPo battery to power these lights and signals without drawing any power from the main LiPo battery. The Strada's tires will be more pavement-oriented, and the shocks will also be turned more for street-riding.
PERFORMANCE Max Speed 45 mph
Range about 2.5 hours
COMPONENTS Braking Front 260 mm
Rear 200 mm
Fork Marzocchi Shiver 40 mm
Suspension Sachs Single Shock
BATTERY Battery Type Quantya LiPo Energy
Capacity 40 Ah
Voltage 48V plus 12V accessory
Recharge Time 2 hours(100%)
Discharge Cycles 1000 plus
Warranty 2 Years
MOTOR & GEARBOX Motor Type Axial Gap D.C. Brush
Power Peak power 8.5 kw
Torque Rated torque 31.5 Nm
ELECTRONICS Controller Programmable Quantya
Telemetric System
DIMENSIONS Weight 195 lbs
Wheelbase 51.6"
Seat Height 36"
Wheels Front: 19", Rear: 18"
OTHER Warranty 24 months

other specs gleaned elsewhere: LEMCO motor with 31.5 Nm peak torque, Alltrax AXE 4840 controller (400 Amps).

$10700 and actually available -- the photo is of a demo unit used for test rides.

more photos here: http://www.quantya.us/index.php?page=gallery&content=photos

i want. and it has more than my usual hare-brained ideas' chance of actually happening: Quantya's US office is on long island, only a few miles from where i'll work and live starting in july 2009. this would mean local support would be a no-brainer...

 

[bikenweed]

Any chance of a rough HP estimate on the Quantya?

At 195lbs, it's the same weight as my YZ125, which has about 32HP.

Quiet motorcycles will be excellent for public relations!

 

[Toshi]

it's 8.5 kW/31 N-m via the specs. that's about 11.5 hp and 20 ft-lbs of torque.

on an unrelated note, hybrid adoption per capita by metro area YTD 2008 through september:

Metropolitan areas where hybrids are most popular

Rank Metropolitan Area New Hybrids per 1000 Households*
1 Portland, OR 10.394
2 San Francisco 7.453
3 Santa Barbara, CA 5.912
4 Monterrey, CA 5.874
5 San Diego 5.585
6 Los Angeles 5.101
7 Charlottesville, VA 4.459
8 Sacramento, CA 4.171
9 Seattle 4.159
10 Washington, DC 4.016
11 Phoenix 3.952
12 Helena, MT 3.836
13 Palm Spring, CA 3.804
14 Eugene, OR 3.463
15 Eureka, CA 3.377
US Metro Area Average 1.812
*Registrations CYTD September 2008

 

[jimmydean]

The Quantya Strada looks bad ass, but $10,700? Ouch. I recall the Zero Bike was like $7k. Still a chunk of change, but on par with a KTM.

 

[Toshi]

The Quantya Strada looks bad ass, but $10,700? Ouch. I recall the Zero Bike was like $7k. Still a chunk of change, but on par with a KTM.

as of 1/1/9 the Zero X is priced thusly:

Sport: $7,750
Extreme: $9,600.00

(extreme = inverted fork and a perm motor with 10% more power)

given that the Zero S street model is unreleased/still vaporware and will require extra bits over the X in order to make streetworthy i'd bet that $11k is going to be its price as well.

the question then becomes "is it possible to justify"? that's where it's unclear given my own personal finances: a medical resident's salary, not bad in and of itself, but not much when you consider i'm getting married and she's going to head back to grad school/isn't going to work the next few years. i think reality might mean sticking with the current e-bike and her Corolla until one or the other croaks.

* some fat tax incentives by Obama and company for electric vehicles would change things tho... here's hoping.

 

[jimmydean]

The wifes Corolla got 38mpg on the first tank with a majority of it highway. And she didn't drive it particularly nice, either. Talk about a major improvement.

 

[Toshi]

is this the wave of the future? note it leaning into turns and pulling more than 1g. cool.

Michelin Active Wheel demo:

 

[DaveW]

We're sorry this video is unavailable

Bugger.


*edit* Ah it's working now..... That looks freaking cool!

 

[Toshi]

Honda Says It Will Offer a Battery-Powered Electric Motorcycle in Two Years
Honda boss Takeo Fukui announced this week that the Japanese company will bring a battery-powered motorcycle to market in "about two years."

----------

Honda's fuel-cell scooter was never available.
----------

The announcement was made as part of his annual December state-of-Honda speech and comes only a couple of months after reports circulated that Yamaha intends to offer an electric motorcycle in 2010.

"Honda is currently developing a battery-powered electric motorcycle which emits no CO2 during operation, because the characteristics of a battery can be better utilized in the area of motorcycles, which are often used for short distance travel," Fukui said. "Honda is aiming to introduce this electric motorcycle to the market about two years from now."

He added that "Honda's toughness in meeting changes in the business environment comes from the global business foundation built around the three axes of motorcycles, automobiles and power products."

History shows that motorcycles remain strong in a difficult market environment and have always supported Honda in difficult times, he said.

a recap of the three currently commercially-available motorcycles (i know the Quantya is mentioned above already):


Contender 1:

Quantya Strada. http://www.quantya.us/

$10700. Li-poly, 48V, 40Ah. 45 mph, 30 mile+ range. 195 lbs. From the thread here: LEMCO motor with 31.5 Nm peak torque, Alltrax AXE 4840 controller (400 Amps). Local office is in Long Island, NY and they're available per reports and per their website.

Contender 2:

Vectrix V1. http://vectrix.com/

$11000. 3.7 kWh of NiMH. 20.2 kW (27.1 hp) peak; 7 kW (9.4 hp) continuous, 65 Nm torque. 62 mph top speed, 60 mile range at 25 mph. Has a number of local dealers, one across town from me in Seattle, for instance. Proprietary batteries one big downside.

Contender 3:

Electric Motorsport Electric GPR-S. http://www.electricmotorsport.com/store/ems_electric_motorcycle_gpr-s.php

the DC model listed on their website has these specs: $8000. Etek-RT, "19 hp", 3.3 kWh of unspecified battery, 60+ mph top speed, 35 mi+ range. 285 lbs. alternate DC motor + AC induction motor options also available: Sepex DC with regen for $8500, AC induction with regen for $9500.

 

[Toshi]

Rally Driver Circumnavigates Earth in Sport Ute Powered by Waste Vegetable Oil

If you've been thinking of circumnavigating the globe in a donated diesel Toyota Land Cruiser, fueling it with biodiesel you make from waste vegetable oil you collect from bewildered but friendly people along the way, just so you can tell your friends you were the first person to do it -- and to make a green statement -- forget about it. It's been done.

Shusei Yamada (pictured), a Japanese photojournalist and rally driver, ended his round-the-world romp the first of this month in Vancouver, 360 days after setting out from Tokyo. He appeared no worse for wear.

The same could not be said for the Land Cruiser, which racked up 29,734 miles from start to finish. Yamada, who gave interviews along the way, often described the sport ute as the only biodiesel vehicle that can refine its own fuel from waste oil. Judging by the photo, the biodiesel fuel processing plant that filled the cargo bay was no Mickey Mouse production.

For further information -- like, how many people donated waste vegetable oil to Yamada (779) and how much waste vegetable oil did they donate (6,504 liters) -- check out the Biodiesel Adventure Website.

http://biodieseladventure.com/english/index.php

check out that refining rig on a rack in the back of the land cruiser! awesome.

 

[Toshi]

sent just now to info@quantya.us. i have the approval from the girl, too, and am dialing down my retirement fund contributions so as to save up some cash. (before anyone berates me i had been socking away over 40% of gross income so far this year! and still will be doing 5% + 5% match the remainder of the year.)

To whom it may concern-

I'm interested in test riding and possibly purchasing a Quantya Strada. I currently commute on a homebuilt electric bicycle as can be seen here ( http://tinyurl.com/9bvk3m ) and am interested in making the next step to a sturdier platform with real lighting, an inboard motor, a greater range and speed, and suspension.

This purchase would be made in June or July 2009. Currently I live in Seattle, WA but am moving in July 2009 to somewhere nearby to East Meadow, NY as I'm a physician and that's where my residency training is taking me (Nassau University Medical Center specifically). East Meadow is 11 miles from your company's Syosset, NY office.

I have several questions:

1) Is there anywhere local to my current location (Seattle) where I could test ride a Quantya Strada?
2) Would local support be available for the Strada in Long Island thanks to your sales office's proximity?
3) What is the range of seat height adjustability? I'm 5' 8" and am not super long of leg and don't want a 37" standover height or the like.
4) How do insurance companies handle insuring the Strada? Would I need any special documentation?
5) Do you have customers who have successfully registered Stradas for street use in NY state? Any special procedures or paperwork?
6) Are there any issues with obtaining financing for a bank for an electric motorcycle? Do they consider it equivalent to any other auto loan?

-Toshi Clark

their reply:

Toshi,

Our distributor for the Seattle area will bet in touch with you. In the meantime we are emailing you the enclosed information. Do not hesitate to contact us should you have any questions.



Thank you for your recent visit to our website and your interest in Quantya Electric Motorcycles . We are happy to inform you that Quantya is represented exclusively in the United States and Canada through QuantyaUSA, LLC. By having a representation office in the US, we can offer the same warranties and support to our valued customers here in the USA and Canada. Attached is a brochure for your review and the prices are as follow:
Quantya TRACK: $9,975
Quantya STRADA: $10,700
Please note that the Quantya Strada is a road certified vehicle and we are proud to be VCA (Vehicle Certification Agency), TUV and DOT certified. Currently we have a small network of dealers in California, Washington and New England. Alternatively you can purchase a Quantya motorcycle directly though our corporate office if a dealer is not yet available in your location. If you have any further questions, please feel free to contact us.


Best regards


Rolando Trentini
Quantya USA| Swiss Electric Movement
6800 Jericho Turnpike
Suite 120W
Syosset, New York11791
Office: 516-393-5844
Fax: 516-393-5819
Cell: 516-532-2833
www.quantya.us

 

[Toshi]

electric cars, perpetually 6 months from release. except for the Aptera, which has gone from a summer 2008 to a 4Q 2008 to now a 1Q 2010 rollout. and now it's supposed to be fwd, which is a rather significant change to its basic design...

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/12/24/aptera-switches-to-front-wheel-drive-delivery-date-still-unknow/

-----------------------------

update:

i'm having cold feet, as it were, about the electric motorcycle idea, just as i did when i proposed it this time last year (and ended up with the electric bicycle). this week of snow has made me realize that 2-wheeled transportation is really not that useful when things dip below freezing, and my efforts at google showed that ice racers are really the only two wheeled riders that relish the cold. most everyone else seems fair weather riders...

so it's back to square one, or is it three? there's always the mythical Piaggio MP3 plug-in hybrid as well as the 3-wheeled Vectrix that's supposedly based off of the same platform. if only these companies would get off their butts and release something instead of issuing press releases and showing off their hypothetical wares at trade shows!

 

[Toshi]

i was just contemplating the social utility to the nation of buying a Ford Fusion Hybrid over a roughly comparable Toyota Prius (assuming the new one being unveiled in Detroit doesn't improve drastically upon its predecessor) and then came across this, from a marketwatch article:

All Ford Fusion and Mercury Milan models will be built at Ford's Hermosillo (Mexico) Stamping and Assembly Plant.

why again should we support ford if they build their car in mexico? we're not supporting american workers, just a few sheetmetal stylists and a bunch of corporate poofs...

thumbs down. given that choice i'd buy japanese without a question -- CEO salaries are much less exorbitant and worker retention, while not the sure-fire thing it once was, is much higher than in the US.

 

[Toshi]

this is what race cars will sound like eventually:

it gets interesting about 0:45 in, warmup lap until then. certainly quicker judging from that video than any street car i've driven or ridden in, and that includes prepped Super Stock Z06s on R-comps, Vipers with the same treatment, etc. the car uses an AC Propulsion controller and possibly other bits. AC Propulsion is the outfit that's doing the electrics for the mini E, and runs a popular business to convert the old-school Scion xB to electric for the princely sum of $55,000 + the Scion.

in a piece of news about a not quite so personal but still alternative and efficient form of transport: Burbank, cali is buying a bus from Proterra. Proterra is a colorado outfit, and they built the city a plug-in hybrid hydrogen fuel cell electric bus. 250 mile range and charges in 6 minutes! plus all built in the US, unlike the Fusion Hybrid in the post above.

finally, another reason why an established, non-sketchy company will make a killing when they release a practical and supported EV or even PHEV:

Electric City Motors Current.

price not listed on website, but from past writings seems to be just shy of $30k. unclear whether that price is for lead-acid or the more expensive upgraded lithium packs. they make fantastical claims such as "65-200 mile" range, 0-60 in 4.9 seconds yet with only 40 kW of motor/juice, and for a while they claimed that the Current was assembled in the US even tho it's clearly a chinese design through and through. now their website merely states that they are the u.s. distributor.

 

[Toshi]

remember the BugE from back in the depths of this thread?

well, here's a blog of a guy who is building one: http://ev4me.blogspot.com/ . frankly, the build process sounds like a pain in the ass. i am not inspired to duplicate his efforts, especially since his parts total is $8100 as compared to a $9295 + tax [albeit from a webpage not updated in at least a year] prebuilt tab.

$10k is a lot of money for something that doesn't have suspension, as far as i can tell. i personally perceive more value in a hypothetical $30k true-blue electric car from a mainstream manufacturer with all the amenities, comforts, crash testing, performance, and weather protection of a "real car" vs. $10k for something that is not quite ready for prime time.

 

[Toshi]

this post harkens back to earlier in this thread, where bearded, granola-loving hippies defended their choice of 1980 Honda Civics despite said car's lack of emissions control equipment. this came up in this thread both in terms of old cars and in terms of motorcycles.

some definitions: HC = hydrocarbons, NOx = nitrogen oxides, CO = carbon monoxides. these are all smog-forming and asthma-promoting gases. units are g/km unless otherwise specified.

- until the 1980 model year motorcycle emissions were unregulated. this is how companies could have road-going 2-stroke bikes
- from 1980 until the 2006 (! yes, 26 years) model year there was a single set of motorcycle emissions rules. it was very lax: HC 5.0, NOx unregulated, and CO 12.0.
- a series of intervening limits has been imposed, but the most recent, strict, and relevant one is Euro 3. Euro 5 is on the horizon (~2015) and will achieve parity with automobiles. Euro 3 limits are HC 0.3, NOx 0.15, and CO 2.0.
- the Piaggio MP3 250, 400, and 500 meet Euro 3 emissions standards, and we actually have test data showing that it has low evaporative emissions as well.

so we have some numbers. but how do these compare to the corresponding emissions of late-model cars, which is presumably what the environmentally conscious commuter would be driving otherwise? let us examine two cars, a 2008 Prius (presumably the green standard-bearer) and a 2001 Corolla (my fiancée's car, and a typical choice).

- in 2004 the EPA's Tier 2 emissions standards were implemented. prior to that we had a hodgepodge of acronyms.
- the 2008 Prius meets Tier 2 Bin 3 standards in 49-state guise: HC 0.0068, NOx 0.019, and CO 1.3.
- the 2001 Corolla was a LEV vehicle: HC 0.097, NOx 0.37, and CO 2.61.

what's the take-home message? the Prius is truly green in terms of smog-forming gas emissions -- my specs were for the 49-state version and the Cali-spec version is cleaner yet -- with smog-forming emissions a solid order of magnitude less than of motorcycles compliant with the current strictest standard, Euro 3. however, Euro 3-compliant motorcycles are fully comparable to recent model cars that are older than 2004, such as the 2001 Corolla.

note that this discussion is about smog-forming emissions, not greenhouse gases, namely CO2. the astute reader will recall that CO2 emissions are directly proportional to fuel consumption with the caveat that european testing methodology is a black box from my perspective. the Prius is rated by the europeans at 104 g CO2/km driven, iirc, and this corresponds to its US mpg rating of 48/45 mpg. in my experience 45-50 mpg is highly attainable. the largest-engined Piaggio MP3 500 gets 60 mpg in testing. this would correspond to right around 100 g CO2/km driven. the Piaggio MP3 plug-in hybrid, should it ever be released, should log only 40 g CO2/km driven.

now we've covered somewhat exhaustively the numbers and established rough parity between late- but not current-model cars and Euro 3-compliant motorcycles you might wonder what's my motivation. one motivating factor is the vapidity of the extant blog and newspaper coverage of this issue. another reason is to possibly rationalize the purchase of a Piaggio MP3, whether in the currently-vaporware plug-in hybrid form (141 mpg, 40 g/km, presumably Euro 3 compliant if not Euro 5 even) or in the currently-available 500 cc form (60 mpg, 100 g/km, Euro 3 compliant)...

the Piaggio MP3 Hybrid, currently only to be found at auto show stands (ie, not for sale yet, supposedly in 2009):




the Piaggio MP3 500, which wears more aggressive styling than its 250 and 400 cc brethren:

 

[WTGPhoben]

looks like a high-side waiting to happen...

 

[Toshi]

looks like a high-side waiting to happen...

hmm, how so? You've seen its parallelogram system in action, no? Both wheels stay in contact with the ground and aligned with the bike's axis at lean angles up to 40 degrees.

Incidentally Vectrix is supposedly coming out with an electric scooter based off of the (licensed) Piaggio MP3 platform, but as it's vaporware and will be $15k+ doesn't seem like such a steal...

 

[DaveW]

filtering thru traffic would be a prick on something that wide.

 

[Toshi]

filtering thru traffic would be a prick on something that wide.

front end width is 420 mm? that's actually less wide than many maxi-scooters, Piaggio's own X9 for instance. other fun links: exploded drawings of just about all parts; winter tires, a ridiculously tall windshield, and some pretty involved leg warmers are available. it definitely looks much more year-round capable than any two wheeled bike to this observer, and the amount of engineering in it compared to a BugE is immediately apparent.

 

[DaveW]

heh that'lll teach me to just go by looking at the pic of that black one.

Sure looks wide in the pic though?

 

[jimmydean]

The 500 looks awesome! I need to ride that.

 

[WTGPhoben]

hmm, how so? You've seen its parallelogram system in action, no? Both wheels stay in contact with the ground and aligned with the bike's axis at lean angles up to 40 degrees.

Incidentally Vectrix is supposedly coming out with an electric scooter based off of the (licensed) Piaggio MP3 platform, but as it's vaporware and will be $15k+ doesn't seem like such a steal...

I stand corrected about the high-side, but if the suspension can move freely when you're riding, how are you getting that much more slip resistance in nasty slushiness than a regular bike?

 

[Toshi]

I stand corrected about the high-side, but if the suspension can move freely when you're riding, how are you getting that much more slip resistance in nasty slushiness than a regular bike?

turns out this has actually been studied: http://files.epsscentral.net/docs/3-wheelstudy.pdf

Stability analysis
The analysis of the stability is investigated in the present section using the numerical
models previously validated. To this end, the eigenvalue of each mode is computed in the
speed range of interest (20-240 km/h) considering the vehicle at constant speed during
straight running. The results are plotted in the root loci graph of Fig. 10. In the same graph
are reported the root loci (circle marks) extrapolated by the experimental curves of Fig. 8
and 9. The good correlation between the numerical and experimental results is confirmed
also by these graphs.
The comparison of the root loci evidences the following considerations:
• the weave mode of both the vehicles moves towards the threshold of instability with
increasing velocities. The frequency of the three wheels vehicle remains quite constant
while that of the two wheels one increases with the speed. Additionally, the weave
mode of the two wheels scooter becomes unstable at a speed that is about 20 km/h
lower that the three wheels one
• The wobble modes of the three wheels scooter results to be much damped and therefore
far from becoming unstable. On the contrary, most of the roots related to the two
wheels vehicle lies on the imaginary axis for a wide speed range

It results that the three wheels scooter is more stable than the two wheels one for the speed
range of interest. This is ascribed to
• the higher damping introduced by the friction of the steering system joints. It has been
identified to be three times higher than the friction introduced by the bearings
supporting the front body of the two wheels vehicle
• The higher stiffness and structural damping of the three wheels scooter chassis. The
wobble modes are very sensitive to those parameters and a chassis stiffness and
damping, that is only the 20 % higher in the three wheels scooter, is effective on the
wobble modes behaviour

unrelated to the article above but on point:

whoa. and look what i just found. reminiscent of the BMW C1 (which was also featured in this thread near its inception):

plus a trailer, too! ahha

 

[WTGPhoben]

turns out this has actually been studied: http://files.epsscentral.net/docs/3-wheelstudy.pdf



unrelated to the article above but on point:

Sure, I totally buy that it's more stable at speed, but I'm thinking about sliding out / tipping over in slow-speed near-zero traction situations (read: the weather in Boston yesterday). The advantage of 4 wheeled thing is that you slide around but don't lose your balance and fall over. When two-wheeled things slide they fall over. I don't see how the MP3 is any better than 2-wheeled vehicle in this respect.