[Toshi]

black noise, you can't ask people to be martyrs in places where that's not the social norm (read: santa cruz ). the vehicles highlighted in this thread would let people have less of an impact while only requiring small modifications to their lifestyle.

 

[jimmydean]

Are you ready for this? 25mph, range of over 10-100 miles, never have to pay for gas or plug it in. Price? As low as $100.

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/bik/604241149.html

IMO, when it comes to alternative personal transportation, all the technology was invented 50 years ago. You really can't improve a bike, no matter how much R&D and hype.

As much as I almost agree with this mindset, it doesn't work for me. If I bike to work, it takes over an hour. Round trip, you are talking 2+ hours added to my 8+ hour work day. So that would be a 10+ hour work day minimum.

Now you might say "But Dave, doesn't the bus take you over an hour each way already?"

Why yes, it does. But I can read/write on the bus, so I charge that time to work and I am only in the office about 6 hours when I ride the bus. The net is about 9 hours from the time I leave the house until the time I return. Unlike the 10+ hours I would be gone when I bike.

Believe it or not, that adds up to a lot of time over the course of the year.

My motorcycle gets me to work in about 20 minutes. I ride it a few days a week when I need to run errands and stuff. My chopper will do the same, only it will have lower emissions (emissions control system) as well as burn E85 (renewable resource) for fuel.

 

[buildyourown]

I'm in the same boat. You can do an electric conversion fairly easily on an older car. I'm kind of considering it but I have little more than a dirt driveway and some handtools. By your username I'd guess your better equipped. You can buy a converted vehicle too, price will depend on top speed and range.

http://www.ev-america.com/

Now you've got me thinking. I build machines for a living. I'm sure it's not much of a stretch to put a motor in a car.

 

[buildyourown]

Read it on the in flight magazine.

Ironic since any airplane flight produces more pollution than a years worth of driving. That's Delta trying to be green. Telling you how green you're not by mowing your lawn.

 

[Toshi]

Or this commercially made one with an electric "assist" motor.
http://www.aerorider.com/

now that's pretty cool, but also pretty ridiculously expensive.

6k Euros + the batteries... 12 Amp-hours worth of NiMh is the hot choice, speed limited to 45 km/h by legislation, range of "20-80 km", looks like it's ready for a sci-fi set or a moon landing.

 

[Toshi]

Here is a crazy fact.

One hour of using a gas-operated leaf blower produces the same amount of greenhouse gases as a car driving 4,400 miles—that’s a round trip from Salt Lake City to New York City.

Read it on the in flight magazine.

thanks for providing the link. i'm almost positive the writer doesn't know the distinction between smog-producing emissions and "greenhouse gases."

CO2 is a byproduct of combustion, and is the traditionally measured "greenhouse gas". as i said a few posts back it's directly related to the amount of gas that the engine burns. a leaf blower doesn't use as much gas as an auto that's driven 4400 miles so their assertion that the greenhouse gas output is the same is patently false.

it is quite possible that the amounts of other emissions make for this startling relationship. these other things would include carbon monoxide, nitrogen oxides, and particulate matter...

 

[Toshi]

Ironic since any airplane flight produces more pollution than a years worth of driving. That's Delta trying to be green. Telling you how green you're not by mowing your lawn.

this is untrue. while i can't vouch for these numbers directly, you're well over an order of magnitude off. (math fact: i can't see how they jumped from 8500 to 2000 lbs of CO2 when going from the 44 mpg Prius to the 100 mpg hypothetical car...)

http://www.coolmayors.com/common/news/reports/detail.cfm?Classification=report&QID=3502&ClientID=11061&BrowseFlag=1&Keyword=&StartRow=1&TopicID=314

Driving 10,000 miles a year averaging 22 mpg (Chevy Malibu) 17,000 pounds
Driving 10,000 miles a year averaging 44 mpg (Toyota Prius) 8,500 pounds
Driving 10,000 miles a year averaging 100 mpg (plug-in hybrid) 2,000 pounds
A transcontinental flight (New York to Los Angeles) 1,158 pounds per seat

maybe you were quoting a figure that wasn't divvied up per seat, but that's not an honest measure unless you fly cross country solo in a 767.

 

[syadasti]

15000/mi a year = 24140 km (EPA's fuel economy site lists tons per year at 15000 miles by default)

Clean motorcycles range from about .8-4 tons of CO2/year driven the same mileage. So a Prius is significantly cleaner smog emissions (or any modern passenger car, hybrid or not, due to strict car smog emissions regulation) and equal to a large clean burning honda motorcycle in greenhouse(CO2) emissions.

Top ten cleanest 06 EPA tested motorcycles(g/km), sorted by HC test:

 

[hokie77]

I'm looking forward to years down the road. Much of the population cannot afford $10K even on a car. When we can provide trans for 3-4K, enclosed cabin, and heat, we'll be a lot closer to a solution for the masses, instead of $35k for a car or a 5K scooter that we can drive when the weather's nice. In Blacksburg, a scooter would help for MAYBE 25% of the year. The American Dream......the rich get rich and the poor get poorer.

 

[jimmydean]

The wife and I decided to go look at a Honda Civic Hybrid this weekend to replace her car.

Her current job requires her to drive to various locations for marketing, so she needs personal transportation. I think the Civic is a solid option at this point.

<edit> I'll be busing it for years to come until I can telecommute more often or start my business full time.

 

[vtjim]

I would love to ride to work, but it's just not feasible. I live 25 miles from my office at the moment, which is in the industrial area of Boston. I live in a nicer suburban town. I can't commute that on a bike, and I live where I do so that my wife and child (and myself) can feel as though they live in a safe place, but also live somewhere comparably less expensive than getting something in the city.

I commute in an '01 Mazda Protege... so the gas mileage is good. I wouldn't mind getting a hybrid but honestly... I don't feel like 20K is worth it for a gas car, let alone even more for the hybrid.

Plus I'm not commuting on a motorcycle; my wife has decided this - some things you just have to live with. Honestly I agree with her.

My point is that sometimes alternative transportation is not as simple in real life as it sounds.

 

[buildyourown]

this is untrue. while i can't vouch for these numbers directly, you're well over an order of magnitude off.

I may have exagerated. However, considering how much fuel an airplane takes, how little emissions controls there are, and how much energy is used and waste is created by the aerospace and airlines industries....It would be better if everybody drove. I'm not saying everybody should drive. But you can't pretend to be green and then fly around the world for vacation.

 

[buildyourown]

I would love to ride to work, but it's just not feasible. I live 25 miles from my office at the moment, which is in the industrial area of Boston. I live in a nicer suburban town.

My point is that sometimes alternative transportation is not as simple in real life as it sounds.

I'm not judging. But maybe we need to make more drastic changes. Change where you live. Change where you work. I quite my last job because the boss moved the company 20mi from my house. That was a $2/hour pay cut when you do the math.
America needs to reprioritize where we live and work if we want to survive $6/gal gas.

 

[vtjim]

I'm not judging. But maybe we need to make more drastic changes. Change where you live. Change where you work. I quite my last job because the boss moved the company 20mi from my house. That was a $2/hour pay cut when you do the math.
America needs to reprioritize where we live and work if we want to survive $6/gal gas.

I don't necessarily disagree with what you're saying, but that statement is assuming everything is black and white.

I have a family to support. Quitting my job isn't really an option, plus I do alright. I could move closer to work, but I can't afford to buy something in the city, and the town I work in a is a pretty sh**ty part of town, as are the surrounding neighborhoods. I'm not moving my wife and daughter here. Period.

I agree that I do need a solution though. Just not sure what that is.

 

[LordOpie]

I agree that I do need a solution though. Just not sure what that is.

The answer is really simple... trains. Lots of trains (and buses).

In really congested cities, they need to do like they do in places like Florence, Italy where you have to apply and pay for a city driving permit. Make it cost-prohibitive for all but those who can afford the luxury. You can cut small businesses a break by allowing for the first two company vehicles having a free permit.

If you had a train that came to within a couple miles of your house and work, you could take the bus or ride your bike those five miles a day instead of taking the bus.

Plus, all those really congested places would be far more enjoyable.

 

[vtjim]

The answer is really simple... trains. Lots of trains (and buses).

In really congested cities, they need to do like they do in places like Florence, Italy where you have to apply and pay for a city driving permit. Make it cost-prohibitive for all but those who can afford the luxury. You can cut small businesses a break by allowing for the first two company vehicles having a free permit.

If you had a train that came to within a couple miles of your house and work, you could take the bus or ride your bike those five miles a day instead of taking the bus.

Plus, all those really congested places would be far more enjoyable.

I've thought of that, but it would take over 90 minutes each way to get to and from work (the transit system in Boston is good to some areas and bad to others). That's over three hours a day commuting. It takes me less than an hour in traffic to drive. About a half hour without traffic.

Trust me, it's one of the first things I thought of when I moved back here and took this position.

 

[LordOpie]

I've thought of that, but it would take over 90 minutes each way to get to and from work (the transit system in Boston is good to some areas and bad to others). That's over three hours a day commuting. It takes me less than an hour in traffic to drive. About a half hour without traffic.

Trust me, it's one of the first things I thought of when I moved back here and took this position.

I'm saying the solution is out of your control. Boston should severly restrict auto traffic, set up more pedestrian and bicycle routes, and use the money from Permits to improve public transit to the outer edges and within.

Denver started this with a very small portion of Downtown... blocked off a section and is running free shuttles. I hope they expand it.

 

[jimmydean]

I've thought of that, but it would take over 90 minutes each way to get to and from work (the transit system in Boston is good to some areas and bad to others). That's over three hours a day commuting. It takes me less than an hour in traffic to drive. About a half hour without traffic.

Trust me, it's one of the first things I thought of when I moved back here and took this position.

Not sure about your line of work, but that's how I roll.

I spend an hour each way on the bus. I have a laptop and use that time to write and review reports/documents/specs. That is 2 hours less that I am in the office.

It can be boring, but Portland public transportation can also be entertaining.

 

[vtjim]

I would love it if there was a bike specific route to work. Riding 25 miles to and from work could not be a daily thing for me, but I would do it a couple times a week in good weather.

It's not feasible. Boston really needs to do something about the traffic though. It's pretty bad, to say the least. Coming from 2 years in LA it's not the worst I've seen, but it's still pretty bad.

 

[vtjim]

Not sure about your line of work, but that's how I roll.

I spend an hour each way on the bus. I have a laptop and use that time to write and review reports/documents/specs. That is 2 hours less that I am in the office.

It can be boring, but Portland public transportation can also be entertaining.

If I took the bus instead of riding to and from the train station I would have to take two buses and two trains to make it to work. So it's an interrupted time, not like I can sit in one place for 90 minutes. Plus I do have to put in more or less 8 hours AT work.

 

[vtjim]

I know exactly what you are going through. I used to take the commuter rail from Grafton (a few stops further than Framingham) to Boston. I would then have to take the red line to Cambridge where I worked. Took about 2 hours door to door. It sucked. But the train is kinda nice in that you can read, sleep, etc. My wife got a discount on the train pass so it was cheaper than the gas it took to drive in (ask your employer if he can get a discount). Then you add the tolls and the train was half the cost of driving. Yea, I could get to work in under an hour driving but the hassles, cost, and potential accidents didn't make it worth it.

I now work at home so my commute is nothing.

If I could get the train right in and walk a mile or so to work I would, but I work in Chelsea. And the multiple lines I need to take to get here suck. Maybe I should try it out? We'll see... I'm getting sick of driving, that's for sure.

 

[jimmydean]

If I could get the train right in and walk a mile or so to work I would, but I work in Chelsea. And the multiple lines I need to take to get here suck. Maybe I should try it out? We'll see... I'm getting sick of driving, that's for sure.

When I worked downtown, I took a bus to the train, then walked. 30 minutes on the bus, an hour on the train, then an 8 block walk to the office.

Now I take the same bus to the station, but I can get on one of two buses to get me about 3/4 of a mile from the office. When I bike, I usually do one bus, then bike. It's about 9 miles from the transit center to either my house or the office. 9 miles isn't too bad, but I do it on my DH bike for added challenge (and it's my only bike).

So it's 30 minutes, 5 minute wait, 30 minutes, then the walk.

 

[BMXman]

The wife and I decided to go look at a Honda Civic Hybrid this weekend to replace her car.

Her current job requires her to drive to various locations for marketing, so she needs personal transportation. I think the Civic is a solid option at this point.

<edit> I'll be busing it for years to come until I can telecommute more often or start my business full time.

I would look at the Fit...I think it's a better all around car. Gets better MPG, a lot cheaper, more power and more room inside...D

 

[jimmydean]

I would look at the Fit...I think it's a better all around car. Gets better MPG, a lot cheaper, more power and more room inside...D

More room, really? It looks damn small to me. I know the Civic has room enough, but the Fit looks a tad small. Remember, I'm not exactly a small person.

I will look when we hit the dealership on Saturday. It needs to be able to haul a lot of crap for the wifes job and stuff.

 

[BMXman]

More room, really? It looks damn small to me. I know the Civic has room enough, but the Fit looks a tad small. Remember, I'm not exactly a small person.

I will look when we hit the dealership on Saturday. It needs to be able to haul a lot of crap for the wifes job and stuff.

yeah all the seats in the Fit can fold down completely flat....personally I don't know why the Civic hybrid is still being released...the fit beats it in just about every category except creature comforts...D

 

[syadasti]

I will look when we hit the dealership on Saturday. It needs to be able to haul a lot of crap for the wifes job and stuff.

How do you fit in the Nissan Versa 5 door - it has slightly more interior space than the Fit and the CVT tranny and still matches the Fit for mileage (or manual or traditional automatic)? You said you checked out the Rogue and Murano, right?

 

[Toshi]

More room, really? It looks damn small to me. I know the Civic has room enough, but the Fit looks a tad small. Remember, I'm not exactly a small person.

I will look when we hit the dealership on Saturday. It needs to be able to haul a lot of crap for the wifes job and stuff.

Fit: 90 ft^3 of interior volume, 21 of that for cargo (http://autos.yahoo.com/honda_fit_sport_5_spd_mt-specs/?p=cap)

Civic: 91 ft^3 interior, 10 cargo (http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/22643.shtml)

Prius: 96 ft^3 interior, 16 cargo (http://autos.yahoo.com/toyota_prius_touring-specs/?p=cap)


advantage: Prius. my parents have a Prius. it's pretty roomy inside, especially in rear seat legroom.

 

[Toshi]

I would look at the Fit...I think it's a better all around car. Gets better MPG, a lot cheaper, more power and more room inside...D

"gets better MPG" is incorrect, however:

Civic Hybrid (http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/2008seleeng1f.jsp?year=2008&make=Honda&model=Civic Hybrid)

40 city, 45 hwy mpg

Fit (http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/2008car1tablef.jsp?column=1&id=24921)

28 city, 34 hwy mpg...

 

[syadasti]

Nissan Cube Hybrid 109 ft^3+ interior (more than an S-class Mercedes), e-4WD, 37mpg combined (6 mpg better than Fit):

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/02/01/nissan-confirms-37-mpg-hybrid-scion-look-a-like-cube-is-com/

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/highway1/la-hy-neil30jan30,0,6395273.story

 

[BMXman]

"gets better MPG" is incorrect, however:

Civic Hybrid (http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/2008seleeng1f.jsp?year=2008&make=Honda&model=Civic Hybrid)

40 city, 45 hwy mpg

Fit (http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/2008car1tablef.jsp?column=1&id=24921)

28 city, 34 hwy mpg...

oster_oops:...and here I am trusting the Honda website

 

[jimmydean]

OK, we peeped the Fit and holy crap it has serious space! It's like a clown car in that damn thing.

We didn't drive it, but we will on Saturday. They were asking $17k with a nice set of wheels and aftermarket stereo. I could do better for less, but it did look a lot better.

The Civic won't work because there is zero trunk space and you can't drop the seat. With the rear seat on the Fit, there is almost too much room.

<edit> Mileage on the Fit is a little disappointing, but the Cube would be cool! Too bad it might not get here for a while.

 

[3D.]

Great posts, now all we need is GMC to further their permanent magnet motor research. And, yes, over unity motors do defy the laws of Conservation of Energy and physics in general (energy cannot be destroyed or created, only converted), but extracting energy from permanent magnets is a conversion of energy, not a creation and there has been many success stories in this area thus far. Furthermore, humans have had to make many changes to the laws of physics through the changing times.

I personally spend a fair amount of time experimenting with permanent magnet set-ups and smots (call it a hobby), laugh if you want to, but there is a lot of potential here.

I feel that the permanent magnet generators will be best suited for large application power plant use, as a clean power sources for the types of vehicles Toshi has been displaying.

GMC motor the haters doubt:

Australia headed in the right direction:

I like this group:

Much to be said about electrostatic energy as well, I'm fond of the "Testatika":

Another one the world is doubting:

 

[jimmydean]

Nissan Cube Hybrid 109 ft^3+ interior (more than an S-class Mercedes), e-4WD, 37mpg combined (6 mpg better than Fit):

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/02/01/nissan-confirms-37-mpg-hybrid-scion-look-a-like-cube-is-com/

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/highway1/la-hy-neil30jan30,0,6395273.story

Damn, I want one!

 

[Toshi]

Damn, I want one!

you can bet that once they throw the larger 1.8 liter motor in there the mileage will drop to low-30s, right on par with its Fit, Yaris, and Versa brethren.

while we're e-speculating about unreleased vehicles, i want this one:

Mercedes Benz GLK Bluetec Hybrid diesel-electric hybrid. http://news.windingroad.com/alternative-propulsion/hybrids/geneva-08-mercedes-benz-vision-glk-bluetec-hybrid/

unknown price. Lithium ion batteries! irate2: "nearly 40 mpg". 0-100 km/h in 7.3 seconds. 240 hp and 420 ft-lb of torque (!) in total from a 2.2 liter diesel with urea injection and a hybrid component with the aforementioned Li-ion batteries backing it up.

 

[jimmydean]

Looks like a Forester, but impressive specs.

 

[Toshi]

Great posts, now all we need is GMC to further their permanent magnet motor research. And, yes, over unity motors do defy the laws of Conservation of Energy and physics in general (energy cannot be destroyed or created, only converted), but extracting energy from permanent magnets is a conversion of energy, not a creation and there has been many success stories in this area thus far. Furthermore, humans have had to make many changes to the laws of physics through the changing times.

I personally spend a fair amount of time experimenting with permanent magnet set-ups and smots (call it a hobby), laugh if you want to, but there is a lot of potential here.

I feel that the permanent magnet generators will be best suited for large application power plant use, as a clean power sources for the types of vehicles Toshi has been displaying.

GMC motor the haters doubt:

Australia headed in the right direction:

I like this group:

Much to be said about electrostatic energy as well, I'm fond of the "Testatika":

Another one the world is doubting:

[carlsagan] extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence [/carlsagan]

when discussing violation of the second law of thermodynamics extraordinary evidence is required. i don't see any valid evidence produced, and the fact that youtube videos are the only place where this supposed technology gets an airing even though it's perennially on the cusp of commercialization and verification according to the "inventors" is not confidence inspiring.

Cliffs Notes: GMCC was a scam, and the SEC busted them.

http://freehydrogen.blogspot.com/2006/02/gmcc-remat-part-1-law-of-experiments.html

As for corollary 1, that the bizarre result indicating a great breakthrough not hold up in subsequent testing, Gene Augustin has subsequently said:
Finally, the last three paragraphs of my report state that much more investigation is needed. There has been much investigation by GMC, but I have not observed a repetition of the phenomenon.

then in March of 2006 we have this development. http://freehydrogen.blogspot.com/2006/03/sec-halts-gmcc-and-institutes.html

The SEC News Digest for 2006-03-08 shows that they halted trading in GMC Holding Corp (GMCC).
The Commission announced the temporary suspension of trading in the securities of GMC Holding Corporation, a Florida corporation based in Casselberry, Fla., at 9:30 a.m. EST on March 8, 2006, and terminating at 11:59 EST on March 21, 2006.

The Commission temporarily suspended trading in the securities of GMC because of questions that have been raised about the accuracy and adequacy of publicly disseminated information concerning, among other things, the proposed sale of GMC's alternative energy technology referred to as REMAT and the company's financial condition and because GMC is delinquent in its periodic filing obligations under Securities Exchange Act Section 13(a). This order was entered pursuant to Exchange Act Section 12(k). GMC, a non-reporting issuer, is quoted on the Pink Sheets under the ticker symbol GMCC. snip (Rel. 34-53442)

finally, just in the last few weeks (Feb 29 '08) the SEC filed charges against GMCC http://freehydrogen.blogspot.com/2008/02/sec-files-charges-against-gmcc-and.html

On February 22, 2008, the Securities and Exchange Commission filed an action against GMC Holding Corporation (GMC) and its chief executive officer, Richard Brace, for defrauding investors by issuing false press releases touting the company's development of a motor technology device capable of generating unlimited energy and negotiations to sell this technology for hundreds of millions of dollars. The Commission's complaint further alleges that these false press releases enabled GMC and Brace to raise more than $2 million from investors through illegal unregistered offerings of the company's stock.

According to the Commission's complaint, GMC and Brace issued press releases in 2005 falsely claiming independent tests, issued by a professional engineer, on the motor device showed it was able to produce more energy than it consumed. The complaint also alleges that GMC and Brace issued false press releases in February and March 2006 stating that it was negotiating with unnamed S&P 500 corporations to acquire the company's technology for $300 - 500 million. These press releases, drafted by Brace, were utterly false. In reality, according to the complaint, the press releases claiming that the motor device produced more energy than it consumed failed to include the professional engineer's limitations, namely that the efficiency lasted only a few moments and that they were unable to duplicate the results in subsequent tests. Additionally, GMC and Brace never contacted, much less negotiated with, an S&P corporation, or any other company, regarding the sale of the company's technology. According to the complaint, GMC's false press releases artificially pumped up the company's share price and trading volume and helped GMC raise more than $2 million from investors through illegal unregistered stock offerings, which provided GMC's only source of revenue.

 

[3D.]

[carlsagan] extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence [/carlsagan]

right, right, it's all just a bunch of BS

 

[3D.]

[carlsagan] extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence [/carlsagan]

yea, and the world was once flat

the fact that youtube videos are the only place where this supposed technology gets an airing

because something is televised on youtube it is therefore discredited as if it were created for such?

Cliffs Notes: GMCC was a scam, and the SEC busted them.

well if the SEC got'em, it must be a scam, because god knows the fine will be much larger than the hit would've been to the oil industry.



…anyway for now I ‘m going with a 55mpg Honda 230L. It’s not a bike that would be considered “alternative”, but… frankly, the vehicles and power methods that have been discussed on this thread so far, (other than solar power and the “potential” for successful permanent magnetic technology) are really just methods of minimizing the burning of fuels that we are currently abusing… not so truly alternative.

I look at it like this: perpetual motion is obviously impossible to achieve, our solar system is dying. Speaking relatively to the time period involved with the earth being sucked into the sun or the sun going supernova, which ever comes first, there will be only two energies considered “perpetual” on earth; solar & rotating masses

Solar energy we’ve already began to tap, but I firmly believe that the harnessing of the earths rotational energies (gravity, ocean currents/waves/tidal shifts, permanent magnets, etc.), at this point, are inconclusive and under exploited. Therefore, should not be doubted so confidently, especially from people who haven’t taken the time to experimented with items such as neodymium magnets.

Picture this… a power plant that is nearly a mile long with many extremely large magnetic linear triforce gate (look it up, they actually work very well in linear arrangements) layouts extending a mile or more out. Than extract and combine energies associated with the tidal shifts and ocean swells (massive amounts of water movement) to be used as a reset for the magnetic system and for power conversion, you pretty much have a perpetual energy device (-) the dead swell scenarios. Build 100,000 or more of those and I think we would be talking alternative.

Just my take on it.

maybe you could use a Pharmaceutical dose of my boy... oh, but, wait it's youtube so it must be crap:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=oY1eyLEo8_A&feature=related

 

[Toshi]

Solar energy we’ve already began to tap, but I firmly believe that the harnessing of the earths rotational energies (gravity, ocean currents/waves/tidal shifts, permanent magnets, etc.), at this point, are inconclusive and under exploited. Therefore, should not be doubted so confidently, especially from people who haven’t taken the time to experimented with items such as neodymium magnets.

your leaps of logic belong in the non sequitur thread.

like i said, show some results and the world will listen. until then the SEC and i believe this guy and this purported tech is pure snake oil, worse than the stuff that robdamaniiiiii peddles.

 

[3D.]

Your right doc Toshi, there is no future in harnessing the earth's rotational forces:
http://peswiki.com/energy/Directory:Ocean_Wave_Energy

I’m sorry for diverting this thread to the mainstream power source area, but it is extremely relevant to what was being discussed. It also kinda pisses me off that people who claim to be so interested in “alternative” power methods can be so narrow minded when it comes to future technological break throughs. Our oceans contain some of the largest untapped power sources yet.

But I guess you and the rest of the world are waiting for fOx news to tell you all about it after the oil industry collapses.